Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was looking over and this eems like a viable option for them is a EML plus Shuriken Cannon under neath. Worth the points?

With firing the STR4 blast you have a pinning weapon plus a 4 shot STR6; add in blast rules and the fact that EML is pinning.

Is it worth the points though is the question.

2 Vypers wtih EML and Shuriken cannons is 130 points


EML have 48 inch range ; shuriken 24; Can stay out of range and shoot BLast templates that pin. Or stay at 24 and shoot Blast and 4 STR6 shots plus be able to pin.

2 Vypers 8 STR6 shots ; plus 2 Blasts for 130 pints.

Well, the EML is a nasty weapon. Hands down.
The Vypers can operate from the backfield blasting away the EMLs. Give it a try.

1 vyper with a shuriken cannon and twin catapults can also shoot all weapons on the move. Is it worth the extra points for one BS3 S8 shot on a fragile platform is the better question.

Vypers with EMLs is viable because they can stand off at ranges in the 37-48" band for defense. The only things that can hit them at that range--missiles, lascannons, ordinance--are few in number, usually single-shot, and overkill on a Vyper. So it's a win-win for you to stand off. Either your opponent wastes a valuable AT shot at a 65 point target, or your Vyper stays safe because the opponent is unwilling to allocate a shot to it.

Once you start putting shuriken cannons on a vyper, you're requiring yourself to close to distances shorter than 24" in order to fire. Anything less than 37" is going to make you vulnerable to vyper-killing heavy bolters and big shootas, which are worth allocating to vypers because they're cheap. Then within 24" you're also vulnerable to a whole array of cheap weapons like plasma, rokkits, assault cannons, and even boltguns.

Instead of shuricannons on a vyper, scrape up 45 more points and get a third vyper with EML. With the lack of accuracy, it'll be more worth it.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Vypers with EMLs is viable because they can stand off at ranges in the 37-48" band for defense. The only things that can hit them at that range--missiles, lascannons, ordinance--are few in number, usually single-shot, and overkill on a Vyper. So it's a win-win for you to stand off. Either your opponent wastes a valuable AT shot at a 65 point target, or your Vyper stays safe because the opponent is unwilling to allocate a shot to it.

Once you start putting shuriken cannons on a vyper, you're requiring yourself to close to distances shorter than 24" in order to fire. Anything less than 37" is going to make you vulnerable to vyper-killing heavy bolters and big shootas, which are worth allocating to vypers because they're cheap. Then within 24" you're also vulnerable to a whole array of cheap weapons like plasma, rokkits, assault cannons, and even boltguns.

Instead of shuricannons on a vyper, scrape up 45 more points and get a third vyper with EML. With the lack of accuracy, it'll be more worth it.

There are alot of things that can outflank and come in reserves these days, do you really think 3 S8 shot is worth it for 160+ points? You are better off just getting a fire prism, which you should already have anyway in a mech list.

Honestly, Vypers are only worth it if your heavy slots are all full. Then the EML Vyper can be worthwhile.

Vypers are a fun little bonus unit. I would never give them shuriken cannons though, the short range of the weapon means that they end up way too close to the enemy and end up dead rather fast. It's a much better bet to just give them a missile launcher and sit in the back taking pot shots at whatever you like. As long as they are at extream range, your opponent will have to dedicate some resources into killing them and if he does, then those long range anti tank weapons are not pointed at your other more important vehicles (aka anything from heavy support).

whitedragon wrote:

There are alot of things that can outflank and come in reserves these days, do you really think 3 S8 shot is worth it for 160+ points? You are better off just getting a fire prism, which you should already have anyway in a mech list.

If somebody wastes an outflanking unit shooting at vypers, I think the vypers just paid for themselves by giving the rest of my army a whole turn to redeploy away from the meltaguns or whatever that just came on from the board edge.

Clearly, though, I was talking about times when your heavy slots are already full and you want to pack in some cheap missiles with leftover points. Anyway Phoenix agrees with me about the range issue, so that means I'm right.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

There are alot of things that can outflank and come in reserves these days, do you really think 3 S8 shot is worth it for 160+ points? You are better off just getting a fire prism, which you should already have anyway in a mech list.

If somebody wastes an outflanking unit shooting at vypers, I think the vypers just paid for themselves by giving the rest of my army a whole turn to redeploy away from the meltaguns or whatever that just came on from the board edge.

Clearly, though, I was talking about times when your heavy slots are already full and you want to pack in some cheap missiles with leftover points. Anyway Phoenix agrees with me about the range issue, so that means I'm right.

Clearly! I still think that it is an aweful lot of points for something that isn't going to do much damage. Do you need the extra S4 blast marker? How many times will the S8 missile actually hit? Are you really going to be able to stay 37-48" away all the time? A scatter laser is cheap, S6, and has good range, while the bright lance is clearly better AT then the missile launcher.

With the missile, you are making a committment of 80ish points, and what else could you have gotten for 80 points when all your heavy support is used up? It just seems like alot of points to spend for little return.

EDIT:

Added because I don't need anybody to agree with me!

Clearly! I still think that it is an aweful lot of points for something that isn't going to do much damage.

Well, Vypers can fill the gun line.
In some games I couldn't take down the last Berzerker, Spawn, or whatnot. Here the Vypers can do the job.
Moreover, Vypers are often shot last if you keep the pressure upon the enemy. Then the enemy will be busy targeting the Serpents, Prisms, or Falcons.

A traditional equip that I enjoy is two shuricannons. Obviously this was much better in 4th when defensive weapons were str 6, but this can still come in handy. I have actually run a few vypers in my last few games to test a few builds and out of all of them I have really had the best success with this build.

Turbo boost first turn up to 24". By your second turn you should be within 30 inches of something to shoot (6 inch movement + 24 inch range). So then that is 6 Str 6 Ap 5 shots per vyper. In addition to the high volume of shots, they are also 60 points each (same price of a vyper with one scatter laser).

Aside from that I would probably put EML or star cannons by themselves on them, but once you put too many points into them they become a waste as an AV10 open topped vehicle doesn't live too long.

Okay, and in the interests of full disclosure I admit that I sometimes field a pair of shuricannon/scatterlaser vypers (which cost even more than the straight EML version) especially if I expect to see a lot of AV10 vehicles on the table like in a combat patrol or something.

But I still prefer the scatterlaser over the dual shuricannon version because it at least gives me the option to stand off and fire at 31-36" if I'm fighting troops with 24" move-and-fire weapons.

My load out is similar to Flavius', except with Catapults instead of the cannon.

The high rate of fire from the Scatterlaser is what sells it to me - plus it's still fairly cheap.

The Scatterlaser can be useful for hitting the side armour of some tanks or killing light tanks like Vypers, Piranha and Landspeeders, or hurting small expensive infantry squads (Lootas, Scourges, Biovores, IG heavy weapons squads) and otherwise being a nuisance.

I always go with the Starcannons and The Shuriken Cannons i usually run 3 Vypers in a squad with a farseer on a jetbike following, this unit may sound like nothing much, but cast guide and doom, and your re-rolling 6 S6 ap2 shots and killing a lotta stuff, and then i think everyone should always take Shuriken cannons, that is pretty self explanetory if you ask me. I have had alot of sucess running my vypers like this.

Dadnabbit, I wish I hadn't glued the optional shuricannons directly onto my Vypers during last edition. Since I'm stuck with 4 of those, I tend to go the EML/shuricannon route. Focusing all 3 Vypers on an enemy flanking unit often reduces said unit to the point where it can't shoot back.

That said, Vypers usually take a backseat to more transported troops in my list anyways. 3 EML/shuricannon Vypers almost buys another Serpent and 5 Dragons... but in Apoc or friendlies, they're decent gravy.

I like the Vyper with Scatterlaser and Shuriken Cannon. 21 str 6 shots. Can really do some damage if they are guided and target doomed.

They work well if you can keep them close to a squad of GJB's to get cover save.

The best thing to do with vipers is leave them on the shelf and bring warwalkers instead. WWs are cheaper with better weapons loadouts. Rather than worrying about how far you can move to get in range to shoot an EML and an underslung shuricannon, a WW can just move 6" and fire two EMLs.

I use either just Shuricannon or dual Shuricannon on them. I keep them as cheap as I can get them then I use them to screen my jetbike squads.

I like a squadron of 3 with Cannon and Scatter Laser... Screened by bikes this unit gets me a high concentration of S6 shots with a 4+ cover save.
Guide the squadron and we are talking 21 reroll to hit S6 shots. To do that with bikes requires 21 bikes at a cost of over 500 points so for less than half the cost, I have a very accurate killing unit. That frees the fire prisms up to go after higher value targets while that squadron can unleash on any light armored unit or pain squad.

The key is screening the vypers though. Without that they are considerably overpriced due to their fragility.

For anti-tank work, my preference is for the warlock on a bike or TL-fire prisms for the S10 AP1 killer shot.

I screen the bikes because they are scoring units that will jump on a back objective 5th turn. I usually screen the 200 pt jetbike unit with 2 vypers that are 100pts or under. I do it this way because I'm usually going for the win in the objective based games and my troops are to valuable to use as a screen.

DAaddict and I are talking in a jetbike heavy army.

Vypers have purpose. Vypers can screen bikes from assaults and bikes can screen vypers from shooting.

I just take the EML. 48". They are not as good now that only Troop can grab objectives but they are still cool. Always handy for when you need an extra bit of shooting.

It is true that they block LoS now, too.

EML.

I saw a list that has 3 squads of 2.

2 x2 w/ starcannons and shur cannon
1 x2 w/ brightlance and shur cannon

Does it make sense? Debatable, but he swears by them.

i would never use vypers . you got alot better choices , war walkers

Was just re-reading the original post, and he makes the mistake of saying that two shuriken cannon have 8 shots. This is wrong, as they only have 3 shots each.

willydstyle wrote:Was just re-reading the original post, and he makes the mistake of saying that two shuriken cannon have 8 shots. This is wrong, as they only have 3 shots each.

I saw that, too.

Could be some new t3ch. Honest mistake.

On the debate of vypers vs. warwalkers. Do you justify taking out Prisms to play Warwalkers ie Heavy slots?

Vypers are fast attack choices, just saying.

willydstyle wrote:The best thing to do with vipers is leave them on the shelf and bring warwalkers instead. WWs are cheaper with better weapons loadouts. Rather than worrying about how far you can move to get in range to shoot an EML and an underslung shuricannon, a WW can just move 6" and fire two EMLs.

Agreed. Outflank is gorgeous in 5th.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:

willydstyle wrote:The best thing to do with vipers is leave them on the shelf and bring warwalkers instead. WWs are cheaper with better weapons loadouts. Rather than worrying about how far you can move to get in range to shoot an EML and an underslung shuricannon, a WW can just move 6" and fire two EMLs.

Agreed. Outflank is gorgeous in 5th.

Actually... outflanking is pretty worthless, it's just about having cheaper, better, more durable firepower. Unless my opponent has more long-ranged weapons than God, it's almost always more beneficial to simply start them on the table. If I want to put them into reserves, it's almost always better to simply do that, and NOT outflank, because I have more control over what area of the board they enter play on.

I understand the warwalkers being good, but how are you justifing them over Prisms and Wraithlords in heavy slots?

Vypers in less used Fast attacks slots is better. With squads of jetbikes giving 4+ cover saves to vypers, all isn't bad.

Need to hear your opinions Warwalker players.

With guide I understand. Set of 3 with x2 Scatterlaser, 24 str 6 shots with reroll to hit is great.