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Yes twin scatter walkers rock, as does twin missile launchers on three guided warwalkers.

Thing is that this isn't an either or argument where the vypers are concerned. You can have both.

As to the question of Prisms or Lords I've found that one squadron of warwalkers with either 2 Pisms or 2 Wraithlords works rather well.

This is very much a case of having your cake and eating it too.

Well, my HS is as follows:

WL w/ 2x flamer, Bright Lance, Wraithsword

WL w/ 2x flamer, EML, Scatterlaser

3x WW w/ 2 EML each

The WWs have more firepower/point than a third wraithlord would, while the wraithlords help keep the bad nasties out of my lines.

willydstyle wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:

willydstyle wrote:The best thing to do with vipers is leave them on the shelf and bring warwalkers instead. WWs are cheaper with better weapons loadouts. Rather than worrying about how far you can move to get in range to shoot an EML and an underslung shuricannon, a WW can just move 6" and fire two EMLs.

Agreed. Outflank is gorgeous in 5th.

Actually... outflanking is pretty worthless, it's just about having cheaper, better, more durable firepower. Unless my opponent has more long-ranged weapons than God, it's almost always more beneficial to simply start them on the table. If I want to put them into reserves, it's almost always better to simply do that, and NOT outflank, because I have more control over what area of the board they enter play on.

I'm not sure if you realize it, but there is actually more than one way to play the game.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:

willydstyle wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:

willydstyle wrote:The best thing to do with vipers is leave them on the shelf and bring warwalkers instead. WWs are cheaper with better weapons loadouts. Rather than worrying about how far you can move to get in range to shoot an EML and an underslung shuricannon, a WW can just move 6" and fire two EMLs.

Agreed. Outflank is gorgeous in 5th.

Actually... outflanking is pretty worthless, it's just about having cheaper, better, more durable firepower. Unless my opponent has more long-ranged weapons than God, it's almost always more beneficial to simply start them on the table. If I want to put them into reserves, it's almost always better to simply do that, and NOT outflank, because I have more control over what area of the board they enter play on.

I'm not sure if you realize it, but there is actually more than one way to play the game.

Yeah: the smart way and the dumb way

I think that's a very short sighted and overly simplistic view of the entire game.

And saying that there's "more than one way to play the game" is a vague and useless statement.

So let me elaborate:

The one advantage that a Vyper has over a warwalker is that it is a fast skimmer. The big, big, big disadvantage is that it is open-topped. This means that if your opponent brings nearly any weapons to bear that aren't las guns, you're dealing with some dead Vypers.

A Vyper with shuriken cannon and EML has OK firepower, but is also playing with a couple of limitations, it can't fire a krak missile and shuriken cannon if it moves over 6", and if it wants to maximize its firepower it has to be within 24"... within bolter range.

If it moves flat-out to reposition itself, sure it gets a 4+ cover save, but it also dies on a 3+ on the damage table, due to having +1 for being open topped, and being destroyed because of immobilized results (this also happens if your Vypers are in a squadron without moving flat out).

All of this for 5 points MORE than a warwalker with TWO EML's that can simply walk around at 48" from the enemy and fire at full effect every turn.

Of course, you could have been talking about my Outflanking comment when you talked about "more than one way to play the game."

So I'll explain that. War Walkers have 48" range. A board is 48" wide... but 72" long. It is only really beneficial to start war walkers off the board if your opponent has really dangerous long-range guns. Lootas and Autocannons come to mind. If you put your WWs into reserves to counter this threat, then by outflanking you are risking coming on the wrong side of the board, where you can possibly be out of range, or are more likely to be out of LoS due to terrain density.

If you simply put your WWs into reserves, you get to choose what area of the table your WWs come in on, and have much more table space to play with.

So please, explain what your statement means?

In kill point games wouldn't a Vyper just become a liability? Sure, in an objective mission it might not be worth it to your enemy to shoot at the Vyper with a lasconnon to stop a few shots a turn, however when a single shot from a LC, or a ML, can net them an easy KP that IMO is a big disadvantage.

Foldalot wrote:In kill point games wouldn't a Vyper just become a liability? Sure, in an objective mission it might not be worth it to your enemy to shoot at the Vyper with a lasconnon to stop a few shots a turn, however when a single shot from a LC, or a ML, can net them an easy KP that IMO is a big disadvantage.

Vypers are priced for 4th ed skimmer durability... but don't have that durability any more. Sure, they take up FA slots which otherwise go unused, but they're simply too many points to fill the same role as say... and land speeder. And since they're BS3 they don't have LS accuracy, since they can't take multi-meltas or heavy flamers they don't have the same destructive capacity as a LS, and since they're open-topped they're destroyed much more easily than a LS... and yet with most loadouts they're more expensive than a LS.

I think its a good model, but it just doesn't have a place in 5th edition, and I think is one of those units that is indicative of the Eldar codex being quickly outdated. They're one of those units that makes me feel just that much closer to winning as soon as I see my opponent put them down on the table.

Again, I'll disagree about them not having a place or roll in 5th ed. Its just not a major place.

When running a 2 Vyper squadron with single Shuricannons they cost 100 pts. If you to use them help screen your Guardian Jetbikes it usually means an extra turn or two before the Jetbikes start taking serious hits. That extra bit of durability on an already tough squad is very nice, IMO.

The Vypers and Shuricannon Jetbikes are designed for the same mission and synergize nicely. Just don't throw a lot of points on them. If you throw a lot of points on them it is sort of like installing a custom sound system in a rented car, pretty much a waste.


Edit spelling and sentence correction

But a vyper can't ram, or tankshock troops off an objective in an objective game... so what use is a screening unit when it's so easily ignored or destroyed?

It has to do with playing the range game with a fast but still shooting army.

Squads of infantry put out a lot of shots per turn but generally have a 24" or less range. Any infantry that can shoot further usually have only a limited number of shots, models, and/or squads available. Now those shots are normally of a strength and AP to really put a hurt on your jetbikes. The vypers provide a 4+ cover as you work the bikes into postion.

The number of vehicles is fairly limited over all and are normally worrying about your heavy guns. The only vehicles able to really be a problem for jetbikes because of their speed and volume of fire and deployment options is the SM Land Speeder, Sentinels, and now the Valkerie/Vendetta. I don't mind the 100 pts when they go after the vypers and leave my jetbikes alone for a turn. If they go after the bikes first I still get the 4+ cover from anything AP3 or better coming through.