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Would you attend an event where Modeling, Painting, Sportsmanship, Trivia Knowledge and Army Background story writing were emphasized just as heavily as Battle Points? Assume there is prize support for multiple categories with an emphasis on overall hobby attributes.

I'm trying to gauge the reception towards such an event. Please do not use this thread as an excuse to beat a drum about what you think about sports scoring, chipmunking, army list composition or weak play skills. That's not the point.

Thanks in advance for your answers.

Hell yeah I'd go! I love trivia!

I scored 8/8 last RT.

The problem with running an event where you try to emphasize the other aspects of the game is in the point spread and weighting. It really doesn't matter how many points you allocate to each category...if the point spread is out of whack, whatever category has the largest spread will be the determining factor.

I have organized events with 50% in soft scores, so yeah.

Yes - sounds fun.

I'd be much more likely to attend this sort of event than a traditional tournament.

Id gladly go if there was separate cathegories, wins-painting and trivia, sportmanship etc.. all separate. And never if they are mashed into one.

Nope. Any judgement of fluff is subjective. A properly crafted document showing what is fluffy and what is not according to the design of the event would be a tome, and would require tailoring my army toward someone elses idea (which may be exceedingly different form my own) of what is fluffy. So what would I be in for there? Reorganization? Probably. Re-modeling? Probably. Re-fluffing? Possibly.

What am I left with in the end? An army that fits someone elses vision of what it should be. No thanks.

grizgrin wrote:Nope. Any judgement of fluff is subjective. A properly crafted document showing what is fluffy and what is not according to the design of the event would be a tome, and would require tailoring my army toward someone elses idea (which may be exceedingly different form my own) of what is fluffy. So what would I be in for there? Reorganization? Probably. Re-modeling? Probably. Re-fluffing? Possibly.

What am I left with in the end? An army that fits someone elses vision of what it should be. No thanks.

QFT truth.

grizgrin wrote:Nope. Any judgement of fluff is subjective. A properly crafted document showing what is fluffy and what is not according to the design of the event would be a tome, and would require tailoring my army toward someone elses idea (which may be exceedingly different form my own) of what is fluffy. So what would I be in for there? Reorganization? Probably. Re-modeling? Probably. Re-fluffing? Possibly.

What am I left with in the end? An army that fits someone elses vision of what it should be. No thanks.

Eh?

He didn't really mention anything about having to re-tailor your army.

There would be a story writing competition, a trivia competition, a painting competition, etc. You could write a story about two biker-nob warbosses if you wanted, it could still win if it was good story.

(I'm not really sure how "sportsmanship" would be made into a competition though, to be honest. Try and out-compliment each other?)

Chipmunking? Does it involve a supersized bugzapper? If it does, I'll bring the popcorn!

orkeosomfinoruter: So no actual....game? Do I have that right? You didn't mention game in there anywhere?

Is this for real?

Warpedcrafter: Actually it's closer to gerbil+papertowl tube+...
Can I have butter with mine? Don't think it'll need salt.

I would so be there. I'd have a chance...

grizgrin wrote:orkeosomfinoruter: So no actual....game? Do I have that right? You didn't mention game in there anywhere?

Is this for real?

Oh, oops, yeah.

There's battle points and modeling too, I just put those in the "etc".

Probably wouldn't be a great tournament if there was no actual playing. Or at least, it would be lacking something.

grizgrin wrote:Nope. Any judgement of fluff is subjective. A properly crafted document showing what is fluffy and what is not according to the design of the event would be a tome, and would require tailoring my army toward someone elses idea (which may be exceedingly different form my own) of what is fluffy. So what would I be in for there? Reorganization? Probably. Re-modeling? Probably. Re-fluffing? Possibly.

What am I left with in the end? An army that fits someone elses vision of what it should be. No thanks.

Let's see... I mentioned "Painting" and "Modeling" and "Triva" and "Background Story Writing" and "Sportsmanship". Where the hell did you get fluff from? Did ANY of those mention army comp? I thought it was pretty clear in the beginning about not wanting to rehash the "Comp is dead" thread.

Orkeosaurus wrote:There's battle points and modeling too, I just put those in the "etc". Probably wouldn't be a great tournament if there was no actual playing. Or at least, it would be lacking something.

Um... yeah we still want to push the toy soldiers around and roll dice. Not trying to create another Golden Demon here... just trying to put a little more emphasis on the other aspects of the hobby and not just on winning games. Winning games would be *part* of this... just not the end all and be all like it seems to be in some tournaments.

Ok, so we have a game. Whew. But it only involves fluffy armies. My point is that what is fluffy is very subjective. You can take a lot of army design concepts, and while some may call them fluffy, other may not. My idea of a fluffy Saim Hann force may be gak compared to the TO's ideas. What do you propose to do, write a rubric? Or does the participant merely "take his chances"?

Green Git: I'd say that I was sorry I hurt your feelings, but you'd know I was lyin. I WILL apologize for my mistake of assuming fluff; I admit it, you caught me dead to rights. I skimmed the thread.

Enjoy!

I lol'd at "chipmunking".
Oh. I voted yes, too.



Ghidorah

grizgrin wrote:Ok, so we have a game. Whew. But it only involves fluffy armies. My point is that what is fluffy is very subjective. You can take a lot of army design concepts, and while some may call them fluffy, other may not. My idea of a fluffy Saim Hann force may be gak compared to the TO's ideas. What do you propose to do, write a rubric? Or does the participant merely "take his chances"?

Fair enough question. In short, your army design won't mean gak to the TO. If you want to play a Nob biker list, bring it. If you want to play an all Termie SS/TH force, more power to ya. If you want to bring that Saim Hann armie, I'd love to see it. But bringing crushing lists won't be enough if this thing is designed right. Oh, there will be a rubric but it will be to judge army paint and modeling not comp.

If you can write a backstory for the army being the way it is, that will help.
If the tournament goers as a whole like your army, that will help.
If you are friendly and play a fun game, that will help.
If you can paint to a high quality, that will help.
If you convert and bring an army with not one model unconverted, that will help.
If you know your 40K universe backwards and forwards, that will help.

In my hypothetical scenario winning games alone will not be enough. Winning every game would be no more help than scoring high paint scores.

grizgrin wrote:Green Git: I'd say that I was sorry I hurt your feelings, but you'd know I was lyin. I WILL apologize for my mistake of assuming fluff; I admit it, you caught me dead to rights. I skimmed the thread.

You assume I have feelings to be hurt.

Seriously, you'd have to try a hell of a lot harder than that. Maybe insult my parents lineage or something... and even then it would have to be creative and something I'd never heard before.

The Green Git wrote:Would you attend an event where Modeling, Painting, Sportsmanship, Trivia Knowledge and Army Background story writing were emphasized just as heavily as Battle Points? Assume there is prize support for multiple categories with an emphasis on overall hobby attributes.

I'm trying to gauge the reception towards such an event. Please do not use this thread as an excuse to beat a drum about what you think about sports scoring, chipmunking, army list composition or weak play skills. That's not the point.

Thanks in advance for your answers.

These should already be subset catagories in tournies.

Anything else?
A few different examples such as -some Space Hulk games, or some Kill team stuff?
-Maybe use the tourny as part of a large scale campaign where the players all are fighting for thier faction, and the winning faction gets something?

-How about old school paint and plays, speed painting, scrapmatch, squad based tourney, 500 points per side, go for broke stuff.

-Maybe bring on the 40K RPG and fight out a campaign that will affect the Players with each of the characters running a 500 point contingent fighting the battle.

-Maybe build a 200 point unit and put them into the battle, or you actually start getting some prizes for taking control of command points, goals, areas on the board marked with a Poker chip, under the chip has a number, you pick up a little something special for the number, based on whatever you decide, such as you get a 1 you get a sprue, you get a2 you get a squad, you get a 3 you get a box, ... all the way to the 10.

-Maybe use random numbers that come about later in later heats of the game giving you a shot at prizes.

-Maybe the monster build, where you put together some alien beasts using the beast rules, or the demon build and name rules from the GW site.

You know? kinda make the tournament worth the entery fee? You actually bring something home for the trouble?

stuff like you have is subjective, not really something to write home about.

RTT's are or should be about something better then your average vanilla game.

People should have a little something extra to them to make someone WANT to come to it, not just come in and get run off by the local LFGS hero.

I see nobody's addressing my point...

Centurian99 wrote:I see nobody's addressing my point...

I'm sorry... it was phrased as a statement. Didn't realize you were looking for feedback. Let's address that shall we?

Centurian99 wrote:The problem with running an event where you try to emphasize the other aspects of the game is in the point spread and weighting. It really doesn't matter how many points you allocate to each category...if the point spread is out of whack, whatever category has the largest spread will be the determining factor.

And therein lies (what I feel anyway) is the root of current trends: Too much of a point spread in battle points and not enough in other aspects of the game. In this proposed type of scenario I see it just as possible to win via being a good sport and having an awesome army as it is to win by crushing all before you.

So wait.

Green Git, would you have an overall winner of this tournament, or would it just be a winner for each event?

I'm not entirely sure to be honest. One thing that sticks out is "do people like your army?" This seems a bad barometer to award prizes on.

I'd like it if there were seperate prizes for best painted, best sports and best general. I'd definitely be up for that. But for me the most important aspect of a tournament is:
1. Realistic timetable
2. Lots of decent terrain
3. No ganky missions/army restrictions
4. Fair judges
5. Decent prize support (very dependant on cost of entry. For an expensive tourney I expect decent prizes, for a cheap/free tourney my expectations are much much lower)

my local store tourneys are pretty much all like this. Battle points are only 40% of the points. Painting is another 40%, comp is 20%.

While in terms of rewarding victory, it tones it down, it also helps reduce some of the WAAC attitude and emphasizes having a nice painted army. I'd drop the comp section if it were up to me though and just split the remaining points between the battle and painting.


Also, I probably wouldn't go too far out of my way for any tournament.

Yes. I'd show up with a gorgeously wetblended 24 bloodcrusher army then write a tome about how in the Grimdarkness of 40k there are only Bloodcrushers.

Then I'd get chipmunked in sportsmanship scores, then someone marks me down for comp because I didn't use daemons from all 4 gods.

But I'd still go.

I don't like Battle Points not being worth at least 50% so probably not. Battle Points truly are the one place where you can:

a) make up points for people not liking your army
b) not being an amazing painter.

You make painting 40% of a tournement and I'll have no chance in hell of winning. I'm a middle of the road painter which means I'd already be out of the running to win which means I'd be paying to play when I have 0 chance at taking something home (I don't have to win but I like to know there is a chance). And before you guys say well you could still win sportsmanship that normally goes to the guys that get absolutely slaughtered. The reason being that people score higher when they feel bad for smacking someone around.

So depending on the spread probably not.

The Green Git wrote:
SNIP

HYS-terical!

On topic, this tourney would appeal to some (judging by the voting, I appear to be in a minority) it seems. And that's fine, certainly the hobby appeals to different people for different reasons. But nope, I wouldn't be there. Of course, to be fair, I've never traveled for a tourney, and am not sure I ever would.

I voted yes. I like the emphasis on painting and conversions. It sounds like if someone was creative and brought a very cool looking army they would have a good time. It's nice to see other aspects besides army list building get the nod.

G

I for one, would welcome a 'hobby' tournament. Especially since I suck at playing.

Ya could do it like this

1. Battle points 15pts
2. Painting 15pts
3. Modeling 15pts (Some armies don't have any conversions. So a minimum point cost should be applied. Actual conversions should up that amount.
4. Background 15pts
5. Sportsman 15pts
6. Overall 15pts
7. Trivia 5pts

Each player chooses 2 categories they wish to compete in, not including overall. They get 5 bonus points in each category of their choosing. You can only win one category. Overall trumps any other category. You can still win a category you did not choose, but hard to do. Choose your categories based on what you play the game for. I would choose painting and sportsmanship. I love to paint and love to play. I am not WAAC and rarely do conversion work. My wright up would be weak as I am not a writer. So everyone has a chance for overall but for different reasons. REALLY good painters could win and REALLY good WAAC armies could win. No comp score. And people should be more straight up on the scores as they could be competing for a different prize. No need to rape the WAAC army for comp or sportsmanship unless they are a prick. So in theory less chipmunking then normal. Would like to see how this works. Love your idea. That is how I would do it personally.

Example scores:

Nob biker spam, average painting. 5pts for battle points and story.

20 pts for battle points. TOTAL
10 for painting.
10 for modeling
20 for background (Good story)
5 for sportsman. (Opponents hated nob bikers and cheesy, not nice guy as well)

Eldar average list, great painting. 5 pts for painting and sportsman ship.

7 for battle points (weaker army)
20 for painting (so pretty)
10 for modeling
10 for background (average story)
20 for sportsman

Orks 65
Eldar 67

So if it was only these 2 armies. Eldar wins overall or sportsman or painting due to slightly above expected in the battle points. Orks win battle points or background but if slightly nicer of a person ties for overall for VASTLY different reasons. Triva is small as it is bonus points but another prize. All prizes should be equal to help with people knocking your scores for there own reasons.

What do you think? This seems to be what you are looking for. I might have gotten it wrong but I would think it would appeal to everyone.