Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys, so by now you've already read the 'guard codex or been saturated with rumors about it. For those who've read the rumors, things are more-or-less true and maybe you can help me out:

As an IG player, how do I deal with close combat? Given the new 'Run' rules and plethora of cover saves, I've found close-combat to be inevitable by turn 3 at the latest (EDIT: This was with the current soon-to-be-obsolete codex). Especially since most missions are fluid in nature and require you to hold or capture objectives.

Long story short, no matter how many things I shoot, something nasty will crash into my lines. So what can I do about it?

Right now I'm thinking Iron Hand Straken, Some Rough Riders and maybe some Ogryns. I don't know if the Penal Squads are worth it, they only get rending on a 5+ and even then they're only 'guardsmen! Although I may take them so I can field my Necromunda gang

So uh... help? Any suggestions? Do you think that's enough for 1750? I don't want to take too much away from shooting, but I do wanna have some staying power. Any good allies from the Inquisitor's codex?

As for offense, I have dreams of Storm Troopers dropping from Valkyries, but I don't know if that's really practical. They may just end up humping it in a Chimera.

2/3 of the time, it will be an objective game.

In that case, have a good number of infantry squads spread out and around your objectives/firebase.

When enemy gets close, move the nearest squad up to enemy squad and spread out.

After your turn the squad will have to assault your 1 infantry squad, and will (probably) destroy/consolidate.

Repeat till you either run out of squads, enemy is dead, or game is over.



In KP games. Form up your infantry squads in to blob squads w/ a commissar. Shoot enemy up before they get to your lines as much as possible. Laugh as they try to kill 30-50 stubborn guardsmen for 1 KP.

Stay in your vehicles, move 6" and shoot your main guns, pie plate the assaulters! Anyone they get out of a tank is a sacrifice, move + run to hold the enemy in place while your main force moves back and pie plates/dakkas down the enemy. Mech Tau style.

It's also important to let us know what type of assaulters were giving you the most trouble.

For orks, in objective games, have your squads spread out, with chimeras for command squads interspersed between them. Give your platoon command squads 4x flamers. Accept the charge with an infantry squad, lose it, then drive the chimera over to the orks, drop 4 flamer templates on them. Then the orks can charge the chimera, kill it, then you can get out and put 4 more flamer templates on them. make sure the chimeras are behind the infantry squads not next to them. Don't let the ork player dual charge the chimera AND the infantry squad.

In order to thin out the ork charge make extensive use of leman russ eradicators, griffons, and colossus.

In kill points games. Follow boxant's advice and combine all of your infantry squads with a commissar. They won't be worth the 1 kill point to your opponent.

Against heavier assaulters in an objective game, use 'bring it down' on autocannon/plasma gun line squads to drop monstrous creatures. 'Front rank FIRE! Second rank FIRE!' spam is probably our best answer to terminators, along with leman russ executioners/leman russ demolishers.

IG's biggest problem is getting boxed in. Thanks to outflanking fast skimmer transports we can now play real 40k like the rest of the armies. Make sure you've got a couple of them to evade walls of assault troops and not get boxed in for the whole game.

Vets in Chimeras/Valkyries/Vendettas. I'm completely serious. I think massive line squads are a thing of the past with so many specialized armor options that can kill men and vehicles better and without the vulnerability to assault. I keep plugging different lists into Excel to see what I can churn out within 2k points and tanks and vendies just keep coming up better than a pile of guys.

So the big question: Do you have a big problem with only 2-3 scoring squads?

The answer I keep coming up with is 'not really'. Not when I can park a Chimera end-on against a Russ or another chimera and get a 3+ cover save with AV12. If your opponent is honestly wasting that much time shooting at your troop chimeras, then the rest of your vehicles are killing him, quickly.

sourclams wrote:Vets in Chimeras/Valkyries/Vendettas. I'm completely serious. I think massive line squads are a thing of the past with so many specialized armor options that can kill men and vehicles better and without the vulnerability to assault. I keep plugging different lists into Excel to see what I can churn out within 2k points and tanks and vendies just keep coming up better than a pile of guys.

So the big question: Do you have a big problem with only 2-3 scoring squads?

The answer I keep coming up with is 'not really'. Not when I can park a Chimera end-on against a Russ or another chimera and get a 3+ cover save with AV12. If your opponent is honestly wasting that much time shooting at your troop chimeras, then the rest of your vehicles are killing him, quickly.

I've been doing that a lot lately too. My first 'winning is serious business' lists were all just a minimal number of vets in chimeras, sometimes with just prim psyker to trim even more room for heavy support/fast attack.

However, I've been using line squads just to figure out what I like and don't like about orders. I've played apocalypse, cities of death an a handful of straight 40k with them. Having a good spot for 'bring it down' every turn is nice. Line squads are just rad in KP games, outscoring their own KP value by dropping transports and MCs.

Having half and half veterans and platoons is actually working pretty well too. The old 'don't give them anything to shoot their anti-infantry at' rule can be avoided with a 'get down'. And you can just get more autocannons and plasma with ablative wounds in this way.

If you had room for hydras and executioners, then the line squads wouldn't really serve a purpose. Or it would be a redundant one. If you were feeling more like taking eradicators and griffons/colossus then you can use line squads to take down MCs with bring it down.

Ultimately we are talking about 1 veteran unit with 3 special weapons and a chimera versus 2x10 infantry squads with autocannon plasma. Both of those groups are 150ish points, and are from the same slot. 'bring it down' helps them compete with BS4, and they are immune to anti-tank weaponry.

Man, I'm really just going nowhere with this post. Other than to say. In my light experience with this new guard book. I have found that I like both tactics equally. All vets in chimeras is totally workable and fine, point for point with infantry on the ground.

Which really is pretty cool if you think about it.

Weaken Resolve makes booting any non-Fearless troops off objectives pretty easy.

Weaken resolve? I know what that does in DOW, but I assume it's different in the real game... What does it do exactly?

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Weaken resolve? I know what that does in DOW, but I assume it's different in the real game... What does it do exactly?

It's a Psyker Squad power. For every psyker in the squad (not including the leader), you subtract that number from an enemy unit within 36".

So a 7strong unit (6 psykers) would be able to drop a Ld10 unit to Ld4 for the rest of your turn.

sourclams wrote:
So the big question: Do you have a big problem with only 2-3 scoring squads?

I do have a problem with 2-3 scoring units

While I think Mech Vets is viable choice now, I simply don't like the fact that it lacks expendable units.

Call me old fashion, but I like gunlines And lots of meat wrapped around by tanks.

BoxANT wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Weaken resolve? I know what that does in DOW, but I assume it's different in the real game... What does it do exactly?

It's a Psyker Squad power. For every psyker in the squad (not including the leader), you subtract that number from an enemy unit within 36".

So a 7strong unit (6 psykers) would be able to drop a Ld10 unit to Ld4 for the rest of your turn.

So if you have low Ld. units that unit of psykers is going to be a high priority. That is nasty in the right places, especially against special marine units or even genestealers. Very nice.

BoxANT wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Weaken resolve? I know what that does in DOW, but I assume it's different in the real game... What does it do exactly?

It's a Psyker Squad power. For every psyker in the squad (not including the leader), you subtract that number from an enemy unit within 36".

So a 7strong unit (6 psykers) would be able to drop a Ld10 unit to Ld4 for the rest of your turn.

Does it come with the #1 most annoying sound bite I've every heard in my life? Or does that cost extra? ("Witness ya DOOOOOOM!")

Mad Rabbit wrote:

BoxANT wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Weaken resolve? I know what that does in DOW, but I assume it's different in the real game... What does it do exactly?

It's a Psyker Squad power. For every psyker in the squad (not including the leader), you subtract that number from an enemy unit within 36".

So a 7strong unit (6 psykers) would be able to drop a Ld10 unit to Ld4 for the rest of your turn.

Does it come with the #1 most annoying sound bite I've every heard in my life? Or does that cost extra? ("Witness ya DOOOOOOM!")

No, but it comes with the tears of Necron and Nob Biker players.

Do the tears cost extra points or are those free?

They only cost extra if you forgot to bring the firepower you're going to need...

but the brick of fail cures all...

Tell me there's someone out there who actually yells that when rolling for the test during games...

Mad Rabbit wrote:

BoxANT wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Weaken resolve? I know what that does in DOW, but I assume it's different in the real game... What does it do exactly?

It's a Psyker Squad power. For every psyker in the squad (not including the leader), you subtract that number from an enemy unit within 36".

So a 7strong unit (6 psykers) would be able to drop a Ld10 unit to Ld4 for the rest of your turn.

Does it come with the #1 most annoying sound bite I've every heard in my life? Or does that cost extra? ("Witness ya DOOOOOOM!")

I don't know, that Chaos Cultist ... really made me want to strangle him.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote: No, but it comes with the tears of Necron and Nob Biker players.

Hate to be a nit picker but you made a typo, you said "Necron Players", clearly you didn't mean to type the "s" as this would only be used if there was more than one player still using Necrons. Anywhere. Ever.

Ogryns

hehe....Busey Strikes!

(logged into wrong account)

Foldalot wrote:

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote: No, but it comes with the tears of Necron and Nob Biker players.

Hate to be a nit picker but you made a typo, you said "Necron Players", clearly you didn't mean to type the "s" as this would only be used if there was more than one player still using Necrons. Anywhere. Ever.

So cruel.

But still true.

To answer the OP: stay in your Chimera and just shoot.

4 pimped out Vet squads in Chimeras
2 pimped out HQs with astropaths and fleet officers in Chimeras
3 classic Russ tanks
3 Vendettas

Comes in at about 1850.
Just nuke everything and drive away from the rest.

Spoken like a true guard player.

MarvinGayeIsMyDaddy wrote:

Mad Rabbit wrote:

BoxANT wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:Weaken resolve? I know what that does in DOW, but I assume it's different in the real game... What does it do exactly?

It's a Psyker Squad power. For every psyker in the squad (not including the leader), you subtract that number from an enemy unit within 36".

So a 7strong unit (6 psykers) would be able to drop a Ld10 unit to Ld4 for the rest of your turn.

Does it come with the #1 most annoying sound bite I've every heard in my life? Or does that cost extra? ("Witness ya DOOOOOOM!")

No, but it comes with the tears of Necron and Nob Biker players.

This ability is ridiculously good. It's one of the strongest abilities I've ever come across in 40k.

It basically takes 75% of the Ork codex and renders it worthless in competitive play.

Any Ork infantry unit that isn't benefitting from Mob Rule? They probably will be running away after the first round of shooting, even if they are sitting in cover.

This includes the following: Foot Slogging Nobs, Nob Bikers and Lootas. These units are now pretty much done in competitive ork lists because of this lone ability.

If you are running Weaken Resolve you will likely crush most of the Ork lists out there right now. They can get around this with mech and clever unit construction but the days of Nob Bikers or Foot Horde Orks backed by Loota spam are pretty much over, or at least gifted wins if you're playing the new guard.

I wouldn't go that far - The weaken resolve psyker unit is not that hard to kill and it will be priority number one for those armies that will struggle against it.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:I wouldn't go that far - The weaken resolve psyker unit is not that hard to kill and it will be priority number one for those armies that will struggle against it.

The problem is the range. If they can frag any of your units on turn 1 that unit is running if it's within 36" of the psykers. In a spearhead this won't occur until turn 2. In a pitched battle you're losing it on turn 1.

I played a highly competitive game recently with a friend and he absolutely curb stomped me with Weakened Resolve. I had 30 lootas sitting in cover in a pitched battle deployment. After his round of substantial shooting (6 multi lasers, 2 lehman russ, 3 hydras) he managed to widdle each of them down from 15 to 10 despite them getting 4+ cover saves. Two weakened resolve rolls later they were running off the table.

That's 30 lootas, 450 points worth of elites, wiped off the table on turn 1 before I even got to shoot.

Yes I was going second which was to his advantage. Yes in a spearhead deployment he cannot do that to me on the first turn. No he didn't roll particularly well. His rolls were about average.

Note both his psyker units were in chimeras. They had both mobility and durability. They could have been very difficult for me to remove even if I had gone first. At best the lootas are a non factor as they continually must move to get out of range. In that scenario they cannot shoot and may as well be off the table to begin with.

The remainder of the game involved him shooting down 90 orks and making them run once they got under 12. Killing his vehicles was very difficult at this point without the pivotal fire support. It didn't end well for my ork army.

Regardless I'm of the opinion that lootas, previously the best unit the ork codex next to perhaps nob bikers, are now seriously weakened in a tourney environment because of this lone ability.

Nob bikers face the same fate.

DP.

Outflanking valkyries & vendettas. Depending on how cosy the board egdes look or how many decent targets are prescent, I will use my astropath to modify my reserve rolls accordindly.

As these guys are tougher than chimeras, wont be in the game for a few dangerous turns, have much greater mobility, extra armor, better board-egde placement & both contain useful scoring troops; Ive got lotsa ways to keep these guys alive, use them to score or/and do somthing useful.

Oh, that & a 30man blob squad to stick at home.

I think transports are key.

Tank shock onto objectives. Make them kill there way through a tank to get to the guys inside...

Another great option (ear muffs IG purists) is sisters of battle. Not only are they a sick tar pit but they make all guard around them stubborn at a high leadership.

Pete

the "s" as this would only be used if there was more than one player still using Necrons. Anywhere. Ever.

Hey I know that guy!

I agree. Transports in any of their forms will be our objective capturing. "Move, move, move!"ing regular line squads will not cut it in fortress games.