| Author |
Message |
 |
|
|
|
|
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
2009/04/20 21:55:03
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Preacher of the Emperor
|
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/8007565.stm
For the record, i am not a member of the military (although i did very well in my RAF trials). This is one of the first reportings of war that has ever brought home to me just what soldiers are expected to deal with on a day to day basis. I am sure that there are many examples on t'internet of similar situations that have lead to someone's death rather than their improbable survival.
My problem is this: Why on earth has someone been put in this situation?
Do we really need to risk someone's life? Over what? Especially when he has kids to come home to. What needs to be done to eliminate this kind of scenario happening?
Why is this chap offering his life?
|
 1500pts
Gwar! wrote:Debate it all you want, I just report what the rules actually say. It's up to others to tie their panties in a Knot. I stopped caring long ago.
|
|
|
 |
|
2009/04/20 22:01:20
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
He feels as if it his duty to protect not only his family, but his fellow humans. Saving that, he feels obligated to serve his country perhaps his father or grandfather served before him.
There are lots of stories that end the same way, a marine was in a firefight and looked around the corner. The bullet entered his helmet, but went around inside the kevlar instead of through.
As to why people are risked that way and how to stop it, kill every sinlge person on earth. We're humans and we're evil.
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 01:26:35
Subject: Re:I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Major
|
Depends. Are you after a justification for the war on terror in general? Specifically military action in Afghanistan? Or a all encompassing philosophical debate on the violent nature of man? Either way the gates to hell have probably been opened with this thread. Persoanlly I like the following quote The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.
|
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/04/21 01:27:22
"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!" |
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 12:42:26
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Preacher of the Emperor
|
The quote is a bit flawed seeing as a man made the rifle in the first place. One could argue that the will of the rifle is the will of the man who made the dratted thing in the first place.
The 'War on terrorism' has always ranckled with me. A war should always produce, at its conclusion, a desired political state. In this case, the end of terrorism. If there is one thing we can learn from history, it is that war never leaves a stable aftermath and will likely lead to more terrorism.
Now, if it's a war for oil.....
|
1500pts
Gwar! wrote:Debate it all you want, I just report what the rules actually say. It's up to others to tie their panties in a Knot. I stopped caring long ago.
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 12:59:44
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
The maker of dynamite was given a nobel peace prize for his invention. He made it for use in mines to make life easier for miners. Today we use it to blow each other up.
The rifle could've been made originaly as a tool for hunting to replace the bow and arrow. We of course still use it to hunt, but also to kill each other. High powered rifles on the other hand were invented to put holes in someones head. A WW2 kar98 can put a bullet through any WW2 helmet and any modern kevlar helmet, so a 60 year old rifle can penetrate both sides of a modern helmet.
As for it being a war for oil, I don't believe so. I think that it may have pushed the actions along, but saying that saddam had no WMDs is ludicrous. He used some on the kurds so he had some. The problem is this; where are they now?
War can leave a stable aftermath, it depends on how the victors act. WW2 started in part of the allies of WW1 being total dicks to the germans. WW3 hasn't started because the allies helped rebuild the axis powers. The american civil war ended and the north spent time to rebuild the south. Currently, we are trying to rebuild infrastructure in Iraq. One of the main reasons vietnam and korea have roads is because soldiers built them to get tnks and vehicles through.
A war is between two or more sovereign nations. A terrorist is not a sovereign nation and as far as I'm concerned, not a citizen of any country. It can be likened to the war on poverty or the war on drugs, trying to get rid of it. Currently, Iraq is a police action because we are fighting people from other countires in Iraqand trying to get the people back onto their feet. Last time we left Iraq so abruptly, US supporters were executed.
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 13:07:33
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
halonachos wrote:The maker of dynamite was given a nobel peace prize for his invention. He made it for use in mines to make life easier for miners. Today we use it to blow each other up.
The inventor of Dynamite invented the Nobel peace prize. Alfred Nobel was far from a pacifist during his lifetime.
|
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 13:36:58
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
Just a point to show that inventions made for peaceful means can be used to kill each other.
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 14:10:27
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
halonachos wrote:Just a point to show that inventions made for peaceful means can be used to kill each other.
If that was his motive. Alfred Nobel was an arms manufacturer for most of his adult life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 14:40:08
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
|
halonachos wrote:, but saying that saddam had no WMDs is ludicrous. He used some on the kurds so he had some. The problem is this; where are they now?
.
No it isn't , it's an acknowledged fact. Even the USA Govt. has said "Yeah we fethed up !".
The whole point of the (from this perspective) successful embargo on Iraq over the years was precisely to stop him from making anymore.
...
|
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 14:44:08
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
And do you think that there are no ways around an embargo?
A possible reason for saying that we fethed up could be to get past that criticism.
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 14:47:51
Subject: Re:I guess it is worth it...
|
|
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
|
A possible reason yes.
So could secret mind control rays from our Alien overlords.
Or magic ! Yeah ! A wizard did it !
Explain then how both the UN inspectors and the subsequent search of the country by USA/"coalition" forces and questionning of Iraqi operatives failed to turn up any WMD at all.
You're not even rpesenting arguments now.
... UNless GW Bush really is the head of Iran and they moved them there !
|
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
|
|
|
|
|
20090/04/21 14:50:34
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
|
We knew about the Gas weapons used on the Kurds. The US had the sale receipts in their ledgers of 'Stuff we sold we now kind of regret but hey we got richer so who cares'
|
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 14:53:28
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
Actually, the transfer of weapons to Iran, Pakistan, India, Islamofascists, Terrorist organizations world wide, Russia(as always), or any surrounding counry is possible.
MDG don't talk about that, the UK supported the american slave states for cheap cotton.,
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 14:56:57
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
|
halonachos wrote:Actually, the transfer of weapons to Iran, Pakistan, India, Islamofascists, Terrorist organizations world wide, Russia(as always), or any surrounding counry is possible.
Yes, but they all got really well with Iraq. They are the best buddies of the Iranians. Do you actually understand what you're typing ? Seriously ?
They couldn't transfer what they didn't have. YOu sound more ridiculous than Rumsfield now.
We didn't find their invisible super secret deathrays either ! They must have them hidden !
|
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 15:03:34
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
Listen, the transfer of weapons to any country is possible. Seeing as though there was time between the first and second gulf wars, saddam could've shipped them all out. We had no troops in Iraq at the time so we had no one watching the borders. Now, the WMDs could be missiles(we found some empty missiles BTW), or smaller containers of gas or biological weapons. They did have gases and other nasty things, and even though saddam hated the kurds I doubt he would've used everything he bought on them.
Eh, Iran not best example to use. We gave the Iranians F-14s to bomb Iraq and once things went sour with the Ayatollah, our mechanics tore the targeting systems out of the jets. I know this stuff, so don't go off on me.
Saying that Iraq never had WMDs now that's rather foolish.
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 15:14:35
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
|
halonachos wrote:Saying that Iraq never had WMDs now that's rather foolish.
Indeed. That's why I and no one else here has said that. Redaing comprehension FTW though eh ?
Eh, Iran not best example to use
No, for you it wasn't.
You don't even seem to be aware of the relationship between Iraq and Iran or indeed all the other countries in that area.
There were no WMD. You're not making arguments, you're just randomly suggestting stuff now that might have happened.
Maybe.. just maybe... the whole WMD thing was a ruse cooked up to justify a pointless war.
|
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 15:26:56
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
reds8n wrote:
They couldn't transfer what they didn't have. YOu sound more ridiculous than Rumsfield now.
reds8n wrote: There were no WMD
You used this in the same post that you stated:
reds8n wrote: Indeed. That's why I and no one else here said that.
You then went on the mispell words. That's funny.
Yes, reading comprehension FTW
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 15:30:29
Subject: Re:I guess it is worth it...
|
|
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
|
You do understand the difference between Iraq having had WMD-- the ones they used that were mentioned earlier-- and them not having any when we invaded them .... right ? I mean a basic grasp of linear time, cause and effect, and how things don't magically replace themselves once you use them without you getting more.. no ?
Mispell is spelt misspell btw.
That's funny.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/04/21 15:31:43
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 15:35:27
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
So are you saying that:
1)Iraq used all of the WMDs it bought from the US and never got anymore.
2)Iraq was incapable of buying ANY and ALL forms of WMD components between the gulf wars.
3)They had no time to perhaps move them between the gulf wars.
4)Saddam was incapable of even thinking about hiding the WMDs.
5) Its impossible to hide a WMD component.
6)Saddam had no time between our saying that we would invade and the time we did invade to put motions into place that allowed for the removal of the WMDs/
EDIT: Might I add that the family we know in Palestine was able to mail a jug of grape juice through the mail that is supposed to ban the mailing of liquids.
|
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/04/21 15:39:39
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 15:43:37
Subject: Re:I guess it is worth it...
|
|
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
|
I'm saying that the WMDs he did have ( in the npast.. you understand the grammar here yes ?) --which weren't just from the USA, weren't made in any great amounts and many of them were used in the myriad of military actions Iraq was involved in up to ( and possibly including Gulf war I). Such as the hideous and cruel murder of the Kurds.
Then the stocks he had were destroyed and he, despite maybe trying, he was unable to make more since then.
The embargoes enforced by countries like the USA were effective in this regard.
|
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 15:55:14
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
Yes, I understand the "past" you tard. However you are still grasping at the straws that saddam was not smart enough to have stocks outside of Iraq. He was well educated and probably could foresee that we would try to destroy his stocks.
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 16:01:33
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
|
halonachos wrote:Yes, I understand the "past" you tard.
Well you couldn't just a couple of posts up.
Seriously, do you have learning difficulties, it would explain a lot.
However you are still grasping at the straws that saddam was not smart enough to have stocks outside of Iraq. He was well educated and probably could foresee that we would try to destroy his stocks.
How am I the one grasping at straws ? You are the one trying to prove..hell I'd settle for formulate right now, an argument to the contrary.
Where were/are these stocks then ? In all the countries who hated him ? And they posted them there too did they ?
And more pertinently then :
why didn't we invade there and why has been there been no proof or suggestion of these weapons then ?
|
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 16:01:46
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 16:15:14
Subject: Re:I guess it is worth it...
|
|
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
|
George W Bush wrote:Although we have not found stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, we were right to go into Iraq
I'm still waiting for you to explain how/why Iran was helping Iraq hide their weapons.
|
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 16:19:41
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
Let me go on a tangent here.
If you were a nutcase leader and someone(even an enemy) offered you a biological weapon that you could use to your own efforts, would you not take them. Start thinking that the holocaust never happened and then work yourself into a rage whenever you hear the word Israel and then I'll ask you if you want some WMDs.
Also, according to the article I posted the invasion of Iraq was pre-emptive. So we invaded to prevent Saddam from making/using WMDs on us or anyone else. Inspectors and soldiers are humans and can be fooled by humans.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/04/21 16:21:12
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 16:28:09
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
|
halonachos wrote:
If you were a nutcase leader and someone(even an enemy) offered you a biological weapon that you could use to your own efforts, would you not take them. Start thinking that the holocaust never happened and then work yourself into a rage whenever you hear the word Israel and then I'll ask you if you want some WMDs.
Except there's no proof or evidence of this happening. You are aware of the history between Iran and Iraq yes ?
Also, according to the article I posted the invasion of Iraq was pre-emptive. So we invaded to prevent Saddam from making/using WMDs on us or anyone else. Inspectors and soldiers are humans and can be fooled by humans.
Which would be fine, except that is not the reason we were given. Stop moving the goalposts.
|
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 16:34:20
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
The reason we were given was to stop the WMDs that Saddam had and to stop the potential of terrorists getting their hands on said WMDs. So I am not moving the goal posts, just saying that it was a different way of attaining the same goal.
Why else do you think we gave Iran the F-14s and gave Iraq various weapons. We knew they hated each other. I am saying that a tempting deal is still a tempting deal no matter who offers it.
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 16:40:01
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
|
halonachos wrote:The reason we were given was to stop the WMDs that Saddam had and to stop the potential of terrorists getting their hands on said WMDs. So I am not moving the goal posts, just saying that it was a different way of attaining the same goal.
That's not what you've been saying.
Why else do you think we gave Iran the F-14s and gave Iraq various weapons. We knew they hated each other. I am saying that a tempting deal is still a tempting deal no matter who offers it.
Yes, but Saddam would never have given any such weapons to Iran. You've got to do better than that. Especially when it comes to foreign policy.
|
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/04/21 16:40:56
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 16:46:04
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
In your base, ignoring your logic.
|
What if Saddam knew that he was going to lose his dictatorship? He would probably find ways to make the americans pay for what was going to happen. He would then be willing to give the WMDs to Iran or a terrorist organization.
reds8n wrote: That's not what you've been saying.
That's right because until recently in the discussion we haven't been talking about WHY Iraq was invaded, just about the possiblity of Saddam having WMDs.
|
|
|
|
|
2009/04/21 16:52:43
Subject: I guess it is worth it...
|
|
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego
|
halonachos wrote:What if Saddam knew that he was going to lose his dictatorship? He would probably find ways to make the americans pay for what was going to happen.
By using them. He knew he was going to lose his rulership as soon as you attacked.
The two are linked : we invaded as we were told he HAD got weapons of WMD-- remember Powell's speech etc ? He didn't.
|
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
