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Looking at the new dex, all I can say is wow. There is some crazy combos in here, as we have all seen.

Guard are going to be the new Orks, in my opinion, and I was thinking of lists that could take them on with an advantage.

Nob bikers are done. The psychic battle squad turns them into a joke. The only thing that stops this is if the IG player flubs the psychic test. But, in most every game, the Nob Bikers will be beaten by turn 3.

Daemons get the pwonage too, as with a possible -2 to reserve rolls, an inquisitor with mystics for deep strike defense (never leave home without him!) and lots of armor which Daemons can struggle with, I don't see them winning often. They essentially fight the entire guard army with half of their own. Ugly.

Lash Chaos will do OK only because 9 oblits is always good and plague marines are just tough. However, a squad of vendettas will nuke a squad of oblits a turn, the psychic battle squad along with a Ld 10 hood on the inquisitor shuts down lash, as do the tanks. I give the edge to the massive IG firepower. The only thing I see being tough in this match up is a fast, fearless, assault oriented force backed up with oblits to keep IG tanks stunned.

Having played IG for years, the armies I always had trouble with were Nidzilla and Necrons. Now, necrons and Nids both have a tougher time with tanks due to the new damage tables, but what really bumps crons out of contention is the psychic battle squad. They just send the crons packing or keep them pinned. Now, a good alpha strike from a cron player could keep them in the fight by keeping the IG tanks stunned, but that is a long shot.

Nidzilla though, I still think will pose a problem. The reason being is that killing that many high save and toughness models will still be tough. I have a min maxed, deep striking Guard army and even when I knew I was facing 8 TMC's and I packed plasma to the gills, I still had trouble pulling off a tie. I think that the loss of easy cover saves for TMC's is mitigated by the run move. Tanks get smoked in HtH now, and the bugs can get there faster than ever. I am curious to see how this match up pans out, but I think the bugs will still be a tough game for IG. It wont be as hard as it was thanks to the new assault rules and vendettas being able to crush a big bug a turn, but it still wont be easy. Dakka Fexes and Sniper fexes will keep a lot of the armor from firing most of the game.

The armies I think could give the new guard a run for their money are horde orks and dark eldar.

Now before anyone screams at me for being a mouth breathing idiot, let me qualify this.

Most lists I have been playing with are going to be packing lots of vehicles, but only a few of which can take out loads of infantry. A few big mobs of orks screened by killa kans or grots, with big meks will make it across the board and then hose whatever they touch. Unless the guard player brings a ton of pie plates or hellhounds, it will be tough as those vendettas will be largely wasted as will the psychic battle squads.

Dark Eldar I think have a good chance because of the volume of dark lances they can pack in. That, plus a lot of fast assault units give them a good chance to win.

Both of these match ups are heavily first turn dependent. If the Dark Eldar can alpha strike the IG they will have a good chance of winning. If the Orks get that first turn of movement, they have a much higher chance of survival. That is another reason to take the Inquisitor as he provides the Emperor's tarot, which helps increase your odds of going first.



Tau I think just flat out get their pants shot off unless they are packing 9 broadsides and again, go first.

What do you all think? I am curious to hear what Dakka feels will be the guard killer army, if there even is one.


Oh yeah, and one last thing.

How in the hell is a Vendetta cheaper then a Deardnaught with 1 twin linked las cannon?!?

And an Ogryn costs as much as a bloodcrusher..........
I really have nothing to say about that.

I think Eldar, Nidz, Battlewagon Orks and certain Witch Hunter/Sisters lists will send Guard packing.

Eldar have the resilience to all kinds of firepower and limit the effectiveness of the Psychic Choir.

Battlewagon Orks have the speed and the bodies to pile into the IG gunline and shut it down from close.

Mech Sisters have the speed and meltas to deal with heavy armor.

Nidz, particularly the fast Hormagaunt assault horde, have the speed and the bodies to get in close and just start mucking things up.

I don't think IG need to worry that much about Dark Eldar. S8 isn't incredibly reliable for *killing* AV12. They'll shake and destroy a lot of weapons, but with the abuse of cover saves possible in squadrons, IG long guns can shoot down a lot of AV10 open topped skimmers.

Similar to Mech Sisters, I think Mech SM will also be able to do well against IG, particularly if you throw a Librarian or two with Force Hoods in the mix.

Personally, what I think will be interesting about the release of the new IG codex isn't what armies will beat it, per se, but how it will cause players of other Codices to rethink their tournament lists. We've already seen a lot of comments from Nob Bikers stating that they'll be able to adjust to this by dropping down to one Nob Biker unit and replacing the other with other things. And we're starting to see Daemon players re-tooling their lists to go anti-guard. And what's interesting about this, in turn, is how other armies, like Mech SM and Nidz, which, while good, haven't been top tier armies lately will be able to take advantage of these shifts in the landscape.

I say Space Wolves because they're the next ones to get a redone codex.

Depends on which IG army they field.

Hoard orcs can still stand up to it as the lootas will kill light vehicles easily and the main battle tanks/ig gunline will not stop the hoard from reaching you by turn 4 (or 3) and you will not get out of your deployment zone at all.

Deamons will beat them if they decide to say screw the side roll and put all their tough stuff in the first wave. 16 crushers + 2 thirsters in a 1750 pt game will own guard if they bunch up arround the mystics. Deamons have trouble with dreadnaughts, not av 10 rear armor tanks.
If the other side comes down the deamons lose. O well, 2/3 chance of crushing the guard isnt nothing.

Marine spam would have some chance as they can pack a significant amount of mobile firepower as well as enough anti tank to deal with most of the guard tanks. Termies in land raiders arent to bad either as the libby with the hood can stall the psychic jerks (hell, wirlwinds can kill them easily enough).

Mech chaos will own the IG if they dont stop the rhinos turn 1 (plague marines in your lines turn 2 really sucks). They arent unbeatable, they just annoy a couple of the more powerfull armies out there.

sourclams wrote:I think Eldar, Nidz, Battlewagon Orks and certain Witch Hunter/Sisters lists will send Guard packing.

Eldar have the resilience to all kinds of firepower and limit the effectiveness of the Psychic Choir.

Battlewagon Orks have the speed and the bodies to pile into the IG gunline and shut it down from close.

Mech Sisters have the speed and meltas to deal with heavy armor.

Nidz, particularly the fast Hormagaunt assault horde, have the speed and the bodies to get in close and just start mucking things up.

I don't think IG need to worry that much about Dark Eldar. S8 isn't incredibly reliable for *killing* AV12. They'll shake and destroy a lot of weapons, but with the abuse of cover saves possible in squadrons, IG long guns can shoot down a lot of AV10 open topped skimmers.

I agree with the Eldar comment, but I don't know about the battlewagon orks. With the abundance of throwaway squads and the new SItNW! conscripts, they will have a hard time surviving too long, especially with all of the side/back shots that vendettas will be getting. Same with Sisters, but they have weaker armor and when they get out of the rhinos they will get hit by weaken resolve and flee. 'Nids will still give Guard a run for their money as long as they are played well and with some skill IMO.

-A.

hahaha, well yeah, that may be true, djphranq!

I agree Death by Monkeys, it will shake things up and give a chance for other armies to rise back up due to the changing landscape.

And sourclams, you think Battlewagon Orks will be a threat? With scout moving Vendettas, they will be taking side armor shots turn one, to me that looks like an easy victory.

fully mech BT with lots of crusaders will be rough for guard! 3+ rerollable to hit and then 3+ wound is very bad for IG.

just2fierce wrote:fully mech BT with lots of crusaders will be rough for guard! 3+ rerollable to hit and then 3+ wound is very bad for IG.

Competitive IG will be mech IG, and mech IG will laugh at Crusaders packed with infantry. Sure, they'll kill a tank on the charge, but then you'll lose that horde of MEQs to ordnance.

Mech chaos will own the IG if they dont stop the rhinos turn 1 (plague marines in your lines turn 2 really sucks). They arent unbeatable, they just annoy a couple of the more powerfull armies out there.

I felt that same the way. This again comes down to first turn. If the guard go first, they will splat all of the rhinos with ease, at least the lists I am looking at will be able to. Then pie plates make plague marines feel pain.

Whirlwinds wont be of much use against the psychic battle squad as they had better be in a chimera! And considering the range of the power is greater than that of a space marine hood, they will have trouble shutting it down before they get sent running of the board.

And Cypher, we need to get a game in some time! My guard need a rematch after you knocked me out of the palyoffs in our last game way back when.

I don't know, BT's are crazy good now. If you just went crusader squads you are going to be charging turn two. I think Black Templars have a good chance against IG unless the IG tool up for them.

IG should have enough meltas to drop LR's though.

IG has a lot of potential now.

IG can make a list that can take on many top tier lists, but the question is, can they make a list that can take on ALL the top tier lists?

That is a hard call for any army.

It will be interesting to see if IG can make a solid "take on all comers" list that can make it through tournaments.

Regardless of what happens, I think the metagame is gonna change, and I am looking forward to it


But, if I had to guess, I still think a well played/made Marine list (that doesn't rely on dropods), can give a IG army trouble.

Really? Without mystics for protection, drop pods mangle Guard. Well, at least they did, I have not play tested the new dex.

Reecius wrote:Really? Without mystics for protection, drop pods mangle Guard. Well, at least they did, I have not play tested the new dex.

OotF will really put a dampener on SM armies that rely on DP spam. It only gets worse if there is a Inq/Mystic in the mix.

In competitive IG, you're going to be seeing both. Reserve based armies are going to have a problem.


Of course, a couple Pods are still great.

I really need to find a Guard dex to look at so I can at least try to decipher all these new 5 letter anacronyms.

I think this is somewhat of a flawed question because the difference between gunline IG and fully mech IG is so dramatic. A fully mechanized IG list will have little difficulty with hoard or wagon orks, so many meltas, flamers and pie plates and forcing the orks to take on vehicles to get to anything. Even can spam will have a tough time with the griffin/collosus combo slaughtering the orks without regard to the can screen.

The problem Mech IG will have is the same they always have, KPs most solid mech lists will have 18-22 kps available.

Gunline can be built very solid with only 6 KPs available, changing it from an auto loss to nearly an auto win in a KP scenario.

That is the beauty of IG to me is that it bring, in effect, two very powerful new builds to the game that require totally different approaches to counter.

Very simillar to the way orks can present multiple very powerful lists that all require different approaches.

To me it just seems like it will be a lot of fun to see how the entire metagame adjusts.

Oh, and Air Cav will be the shizzle ;-) (As a fun to play army, not as a hyper competitive one)

Probably the next generation of necrons will be the paper to cover IG's new rock.

In terms of what is currently available I think we need to take a look at the missions... Objectives or kill points. I believe that kill points will be the Achilles heel for IG. You need to be able to win all three games by massarces to win a tournament... All the new lists I have seen for IG inherently give up a lot of kill points. How good will IG be at taking enemy objectives? Sure they should be able to hold their own but can they move out and grab other objectives? I think it will be doable but at the same time expose them to counter assaults.

So based on the above thoughts I see mech Marines as being able to handle IG in both objective based and kill point missions. Marines can pack a lot of melta and move about. Same thing goes with Chaos Marines and Sisters. I think both eldar and dark eldar will be outclassed... IG can just throw out too much shooty. Nidz have big problems with armor and the Carnifexen will never reach their tanks. Orks I can also see giving IG fits if designed correctly. Lootas can pop a flier each and every turn plus light armor. Snikrot comes in the back for assaulting armor. Nob bikers could have a place in this mix as well... Just run smaller units so they can hide behind trukkz and battlewagons until they are close enough to multi charge. A small squad of nob bikers won't have any problems in close combat with IG plus the dakkaguns and combi skorchas will rule. So I see mech orks as being in the same position as the power armor armies. Finally stuff like biker Marine armies with outflank could be extremely potent. I think what people don't realize is that -2 to reserve rolls is a good thing for armies starting with most of their army off the table... It could make for very short games where the bulk of the army arrives automatically on turn five and being unharmed from shooting they go in full force FTW. Holding most of your army in reserve for four turns takes away the IG main and most potent threat... Shooting. It's quite simple too.

G

Dark Eldar, Hands down.


Tons of lances, and units that can assault first turn.


See the forum called "Smash this Guard list" or something to that effect.

Hmm looks like I'm going to vote Dark Eldar here...

If the Dark Eldar player knows what there doing (and takes a decent army list) The Imperial player is definitely at a disadvantage. Although the Guard can throw up alot of S7 shots, this will definitely hurt the "raider spam" lists many people like to run.
We'll see after a few big tournaments what emerges.

Echo........

The problem with dark eldar is that these lists are not prevalent anymore and I don't see any reason for this to change. Lances are overrated versus AV12+...

2/3 chance to hit, 1/3 chance to pen, 1/3 chance to wreck or destroy... So the overall chances of popping a tank is less than 10 percent. The IG will rain down upon the dark kin while they struggle with their lances. The lance looks good on paper but in actuality is hamstrung. Meltas are the way to go against any armor.

G

Lances are over rated if the list only contains a few, but with DL and Blasters a DE player can bring 48 to a 1750-2000 pt game, while most good list will run around 30.

And as long as a 100pt unit of warriors (2 x DL) can keep a 200pt tank from firing the whole game, and possibly kill it, I count that as a win for the DE.

Also you math is a bit off considering that most of the IG tanks with A12+ will be in squads.

Yeah, DE can bring 12 BS4 dark lances for 600 points! That is captain insano.

Add to that first turn charges with wyches and you have a nasty, nasty combo against guard. DE don't get much love though because people seldom see them on the board. They have a savage list. They need to go first though against guard.

@Boxant
Oh yeah, duh! The -1 or -2 to reserve rolls screws Pods up, I flog myself for not seeing the obvious.

@bigtmac78
Hey, vehicle squadrons, as far as I can see, only give up 1 KP! IG no longer are hamstrung by that. You can take 9 russes and if they are ALL destroyed, lose 3 kill points. Blob the line squads and you can have a crazy army that gives up 8 kill points at 2000 points. That is brutal.

@greenblowfly
how are lances overrated? They are the best bet to kill tanks at range besides rail guns. And the point isnt necessarily to destroy the tank, its to keep it from firing so your assault units can close the distance.

I see marines giving the guard a run for their money. Marines have the right weapon for every occasion. Maybe there are millions of tanks and vendettas and whatnot, but things like whirlwinds, and even the regular tactical marine can also give a squad of guardsmen a headache.

I see certain type of daemon lists bring the pain down on IG. Fateweaver with MC drop your right in the IG face. Especially with flamers for added measure.

Also certain Drop pod lists I could see spanking IG.

wow are you kidding?

Pods are the worst thing you could bring against the new guard.

Go ahead and play your pod armies and guard will laugh when your junk doesnt come on till turn 4 and gets shot off the board when it does...

Razorback (TL-lascan) spam space marines.

I'm still wondering about some daemons builds though... the -1 to reserve rolls is not such an issue as long as you have your 1st wave, especially if the 2nd wave is made of troops that you want to protect. (ofc, a 1-2 roll means you're totally screwed.)
Maybe the tzeentch build will still be effective (the other ones, I doubt due to the amount of armour)
(btw, most games here do not allow allies, so no DH-inq.)

Top three problems:
Dark Eldar-
Tons of tank busting weapons and the guard cannot use their infantry weapons to cripple the raiders like most armies, but rather must dedicate real firepower to them. Raider rush is still going to be a huge problem.

CC Nidzilla-
The Stealershock may well be mitigated, but I don't think that guard can chew through 8 MCs in the 2 turns they have before their line is hit. Honestly, you might see lictors fielded again to counter the choir, too.

Mech Tau-
I still think this list outshoots mech guard and it has mobility, as well.

I have not seen the new dex but I would think that the following would still give them trouble.

1) Horde Orks, ok you get all those tanks, but lootas and boyz will still cut through lots of guard. And you hit rear armour on tanks in CC, hellow nob squad with PK, so what you have three tanks, you still have to spread the wound around, so its possible (but not likely) that a single nob could destroy 3 Russes.

2) More Orks, I still think KoS, Bikers and Battlewagon spam will be around and can kill guard if it is played right. I would not be suprised if KoS orks start showing up with 2 KFF Mekks, to get those obscurity rolls.

3) Mech SM and CSM. Already been covered enough.

4) Deamons - little retooling of lists and they still might be effective.

5) Guard, well besides the obvious amout of firepower. I think it will be hard for guard to come up with a really effective all around list. Will we see tournament, cookie cutter, lists - yes we always do. But unless your opponent is really gearing up for a specific list I don't see guard becoming a Teir 1 army.

Close combat & combat res.

Destroy a good many imperial guardsmen while being pretty resistent to return damage (assuming your going first..either way) & then sweep entire infantry platoons from the field. Larger squads of guardsmen (espically with the new orders) mitigate the impact of being shot @ then subsequently running away. In CC this -could- actually prove to be a risk with so many eggs in one sweepable squad.

Again, vehicle squadrens - which im sure will be ultilized, are vunerable to (previously) over-kill CC charges. Now these squads of vehicles are actually fairly point dense. (Ofcource assault russes (= rear AV11) can sidestep a couple risks, i.e large squads of high A hormagaunts/orks etc)

I think Eldar have suddenly gotten a boost with the potential effectiveness of quite a few units. Swooping hawks grenades packs/haywires/long ranged anti-guard guns & autarchs & brightlances & highly mobile shuriken cannons. Turbo boosting 6man squads of jetbikers with 2x shuriken cannons poses a pretty big risk to alot of IG armor aswell as troops (ap5).

Anyone who thinks Daemons mind a -2 to rerolls doesn't play them competatively. I'd pay 50 points for -2 to my reserve rolls in my list, and count myself lucky.

I think Daemons can fight just fine vs. Take All Comers Guard, but will be obliterated by an anti-Daemon guard army.