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40kenthusiast wrote:Anyone who thinks Daemons mind a -2 to rerolls doesn't play them competatively. I'd pay 50 points for -2 to my reserve rolls in my list, and count myself lucky.

I think Daemons can fight just fine vs. Take All Comers Guard, but will be obliterated by an anti-Daemon guard army.

I'm glad to hear someone who knows daemons agrees with what I have been saying all along.

G

<<Moved to a new post in the Tactics forum.>>

I voted DE, DL will ruin vehicle squadrons as they only have to imobilize in order to kill a tank or vendetta, and they can bring alot of them.

Also, I think that battle wagon orks coverd by big meks with KFF's have a good chance of making it to the gaurd lines, throw on armor plates and grot riggers for an even better chance.

As for nidzilla I cant really say (and I own a nidzilla army). I usually run 7 TMC's as I just can't justify taking a sniper fex over 3 zoanthrope, and all my fex's are shooty. But something about these new gaurd with rules like bring it down, and send in the next wave, makes my bugs look a little less threatening, oh and vendetta squadrons as well. I hope it fairs welll though.

It takes 9 Lances at BS4 to actually destroy/wreck an AV12+ vehicle on average.

Haywire grenades woo!

I think SM will give IG the biggest fits. I envision a lot of troop based autocannons and the Ironclad is a good foil vs. that. I also see the Thunderfire cannon doing some serious damage at range. I can see multimelta attack bikes as a realy threat to either destroy vehicles or turboboost and assault into the guard lines.

I think Bike Seer Councils will pose a big threat for IG. They're capable of taking on tanks (witchblades) and infantry (destructor/combat) as needed, and have the survivability to actually get there, especially if there's no LD10 Inquisitor with psychic hood to stop Fortune. Runes of Warding mostly shut down the battle psykers.

The problem is, what do you run around the council(s)? Anything not in a serpent is out, as it'll either eat battlecannon or hellhound to the face. Even things in Serpents aren't completely safe due to Hydras and the prevalence of autocannons. I think it'll likely be 5-man Avenger squads in Serpents with EML/brightlance, maybe some prisms to back them up. If you're bringing a decent council, that's going to run you around 500-600 points (including the Farseer), so there's not much left to stick in for a 1750 game.

I am also interested in the tactics for and against taking vehicles in squadrons. 3 Hydras in a squadron can only shoot at one target per turn right? That can delute some of the firepower of having 3 tanks on the board. Likewise a more numerous HW team firing back at the squadron has a chance to do damage to multiple vehicles at once. A 15-man Loota squad can do a wail of hurt on a squadron of 3 Hydras, but only kill one Hydra if the 3 were taken individually. I realize the only way to get more tanks is to take them in squadrons, but at what number (1-2-3) does the squadron start to lose it's effectiveness?

Also would the IG squadron deal make marine devastators and havocs more attractable? Since a squadron can allocate incoming single lascannon fire onto an already damaged member of the squadron, wouldn't it be more feasable to dedicate a unti of multiple heavy weapons (devs and havocs) to do the job instead? It will be interesting to see how the metagame changes in the coming months.

Green Blow Fly wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:Anyone who thinks Daemons mind a -2 to rerolls doesn't play them competatively. I'd pay 50 points for -2 to my reserve rolls in my list, and count myself lucky.

I think Daemons can fight just fine vs. Take All Comers Guard, but will be obliterated by an anti-Daemon guard army.

I'm glad to hear someone who knows daemons agrees with what I have been saying all along.

G

Yeah, I agree but I have to say, pretty much any army can gear towards its foe and if the enemy brings an all comer list they will lose to the keyed list. Daemons are a solid list and definitely have answers to the new Guard codex. I have only played all comers vs all comers with daemons, but my all khorne did well (batrep forthcoming as soon as shep loads up the pics).

I have just kind of given up the "daemons are good" banner because I got tired of waving it and most people telling me how much it sucked with a few notable exceptions, 40kenthusiast, warlord, etc - you know, those of us who actually play the list rather than just theorying it :-p

Back more on topic, I have to say, the games I have played against guard have both been incredibly fun and the lists - and play styles - have been quite different each time. I don't think the question(s) will be "who is going to be the paper to IGs rock" so much as "who has the best answer to mech IG. Who has the best answer to arty spam? who has the best answer to Air Cav? who has the best answer to wave after wave of suicidal grind guard?

And I think that the answer to each of those questions might very well be different.

1 tank isn't very effective because one result on the glance/pen can keep it from shooting/destroy it with a high probability.

2 tanks suddenly become a lot more effective because of the potential for abusing cover (1 Leman Russ pops smoke, one doesn't; allocate hits to the smoked Russ and have a good chance of losing no effectiveness while the non-smoked Russ shoots freely, do the same thing next turn. Likewise 1 vehicle can be 100% hull obscured for a 3+ with relative ease).

3 tanks is even more survivable than 2 because the cover that grants 1 100% concealment can be used to do 50% on the other, so now your squadron has a 3+/4+/- for cover saves and not many units can deliver 3 results on a vehicle damage table consistently. At 3 / squadron, however, you have problems with point inflation.

I see 2 vehicles/squadron as the happy medium in most cases. If you tailor your list to suit, 3/squadron is easier to protect from shooting.

tzeentchling wrote:I think Bike Seer Councils will pose a big threat for IG. They're capable of taking on tanks (witchblades) and infantry (destructor/combat) as needed, and have the survivability to actually get there, especially if there's no LD10 Inquisitor with psychic hood to stop Fortune. Runes of Warding mostly shut down the battle psykers.

The problem is, what do you run around the council(s)? Anything not in a serpent is out, as it'll either eat battlecannon or hellhound to the face. Even things in Serpents aren't completely safe due to Hydras and the prevalence of autocannons. I think it'll likely be 5-man Avenger squads in Serpents with EML/brightlance, maybe some prisms to back them up. If you're bringing a decent council, that's going to run you around 500-600 points (including the Farseer), so there's not much left to stick in for a 1750 game.

Autarch, Farseer. Concil on bikes. Some (atleast one) swooping hawks. 1-3 Scorpains. Mounted wraithguard. Fire prisms.

Outflanking/infiltrating scorpains, only the colossus or the banewolf will annhilate scorpains as they either have a 3+ cover (or is that +1 bonus to cover only confered by Kandarras) or a 3+ armor save & those two units dont seem to factor much in the early metagame. Equipped with a scorpains claw & biting blade & thier pretty effective vs all unit types.

With either static infantry platoons, static artillery emplacements or just the plethora of slow moving armor; there should be engagable targets avaible to a scorpain squad.

I agree 3 tanks are easier to protect from shooting, but since all 3 tanks need to shoot the same target, at what point does the cost effectiveness of the damage output start to go down. If the enemy has a Thunderfire cannon at 60", the the IG are wasting 450+ pts of Leman Russ shooting to take down one 100pt unit. Maybe the 100pt unit is doing damage to justify this, but maybe it isn't. Likewise 3 Hydras shooting at a Wave Serpent seems like 1 Hydra to many.

If IG vehicle squadrons take off, then 4 autocannon havocs or the SM equivalent might make a comeback. A squadron of 3 Vendetta's is a site to fear, unless you have 4 autocannon Havoics in cover ready to pounce on them.

sourclams wrote:1 tank isn't very effective because one result on the glance/pen can keep it from shooting/destroy it with a high probability.

2 tanks suddenly become a lot more effective because of the potential for abusing cover (1 Leman Russ pops smoke, one doesn't; allocate hits to the smoked Russ and have a good chance of losing no effectiveness while the non-smoked Russ shoots freely, do the same thing next turn. Likewise 1 vehicle can be 100% hull obscured for a 3+ with relative ease).

3 tanks is even more survivable than 2 because the cover that grants 1 100% concealment can be used to do 50% on the other, so now your squadron has a 3+/4+/- for cover saves and not many units can deliver 3 results on a vehicle damage table consistently. At 3 / squadron, however, you have problems with point inflation.

I see 2 vehicles/squadron as the happy medium in most cases. If you tailor your list to suit, 3/squadron is easier to protect from shooting.

Can vehicles in the same squadron block LOS to each other? I genuinely don't know, but it seems a little silly that you can shoot a tank that you can see clearly and have the hit allocated to the tank behind that tank for a 3+ save. If that's true, then that's amazing news.

djphranq wrote:I say Space Wolves because they're the next ones to get a redone codex.

QFT


- Blackbone

In terms of combatting IG in the metagame, to an extent it comes down to how common IG become, right? If there is a top notch IG build in the codex, but it's still only about 5-10% of the armies at the top tables, it's going to be harder to gear up to counter.

If you think that sheer effectiveness is major influence on what get's played at the top, then you're going to expect to see more IG lists. If, like me, you think that there are a few handfuls of players that build top lists while the rest make what they have work, only a few players are going to either build IG lists or rehab the armies they already have.

Polonius, I think the amount of Nob Biker armies being played the last couple of months tell us that you are wrong to think only few will build the top lists.

Yes, the smaller tournaments will have less of these FOTM followers. In bigger tournaments, FOTM does exist.

A great example would be the prevalence of Daemons of Chaos in the major Warhammer Fantasy tournaments, where about 30% of all players field a Daemons of Chaos army at the moment.

Can vehicles in the same squadron block LOS to each other? I genuinely don't know, but it seems a little silly that you can shoot a tank that you can see clearly and have the hit allocated to the tank behind that tank for a 3+ save. If that's true, then that's amazing news.

No sir, I looked it up last night. They behave like an infantry squad. They do not give or get a cover save form their own models. That would be redonkulous.

I'm sort of wondering how necrons, as they currently are, might fare. 3 monoliths floating straight at the guard, blocking LOS to the warriors behind them, dropping templates till their close enough to use the arc.

For example :

Lord, orb, disruption field (had 7 points left..)
10 warriors
10 warriors
10 warriors
9 Scarab Swarms
5 Destroyers
Monolith
Monolith
Monolith


No DS, so no delayed reserves. Indirect fire at the warriors behind the monoliths can drift pretty far, and even if not, res orb and 2 wbb rolls will do well. Going to rely on the WBB for the vendettas as well, with the destroyers to help keep them occupied and get some extra shots at flankers. The swarms to intercept fast movers, or hit the lines on round 2. But you can keep res orb coverage, and a decent necron count out of sight of direct fire, and away from the choir, for a round or two, and just absorb fire against your wall of living metal. Just a thought/theory.

A good all around defense against daemons is gong to be the punisher +pask + mystics.

The mystics allow you to shoot at each unit coming in, Pask in a punisher drops a toughness 6, 4 wound MC in one volley if you roll average.

And the tank is just good in general.

That alone changes the dynamics of the Daemon match up. Oh course, playtesting will show this to be true or not, but it gives a big advantage to the old IG.

Now to just come up with a way to kill bloodcrushers in one round of shooting.....

I agree with GBF, 4KE, and Som...Just because IG can tool up to go anti-Daemon (with help from the =][=) I don't see them as particularly screwed.

What I do see is that if the IG want to tool up specifically anti-Daemon, then they shouldn't complain when 24 bloodcrushers drop on turn 1 and pen them in.

yeah my new demon army really hopes for the -2 reserve rolls. if I go second I will be getting my small weak troops units coming in on turn 5 to claim and contest with very little or no time for the enemy to wipe them out. as the big drop pounds the guard.

(From a 2000 pt. tournement point of view) (Let us also remember that this is a game of 6-sided dice, and the dice gods)

Competitive IG will take an entirely meched list and most likely will present 6 AV14 vehicles at the front of their army in two units of three (or 3 of 2 if they don't take artillery) Giving only 11-13 KPs. Not the best, but better than the alternative.

I say 'will' because infantry guard are still screwed in KP and are useless to play as in a tourny.

Also keep in mind the Lumbering Behemoth special rule, LRs can shoot their turret mounted weapon every turn in addition to the other weapons they are allowed to fire.

So, what tourney list will most likely counter the meched IG?

Ork bikers can spread out, carry clawz in every squad, and can move rediculous distance with more targets than the IG can handle with the squad firing restrictions.

MCs will bring a challenge but Lumbering Behemoth allows the tanks to fire quite a lot of shots at one MC. (without wings) Turn 3 charge is probably the earliest they will get if the Guard are making proper preperations.

The space elves' lances will do little to stop the guardsmen's tanks because of the shear amount of them with cover saves.

Tau cannot outgun the Ig, I have played them 3 times now with mech guard. it will be done.