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I got my ass handed to me twice today, what are some good options against them, and what are some tactics to use? The fact that they can pretty much deep strike on top of me sucks, and bloodletters are nasty...

do they really all have an invul save? and how does the deep striking thing work? I wasn't so sure he was doing it right.

Sit in a corner with your Transports and tanks in a V with tac squads in the space between them so they can't be assaulted, put ALL of your army in ONE AREA! Preferably a CONER! Don't allow them to get behind you by using the table edge and a Demonhunters inquisitor with Mystics.

I would also add a Librarian with Null Zone. This plus the DH Inquisitor and Mystics will ruin the Daemons day.

they all have inv. svs. and they deep strike by splitting the army in 2 role on the chart 1,2 gods dissagree 3-6 what they pick comes in, first wave all comes in, the rest they have to role for reserves and deepstrike in most players have beacons on troops which allows deamons to drop within 6" with no scatter.

Go mechanized

Danny Internets wrote:Go mechanized

QFT


If you just want to get a quick win in....

pred destructor with HB sponsons

pred destructor with HB sponsons

pred destructor with HB sponsons

2x speeders with MM/Hflamer

2x speeders with MM/Hflamer

2x speeders with MM/Hflamer

10x tac marines melta/missile/combi-melta in rhino

10x tac marines melta/missile/combi-melta in rhino

ironclad

ironclad

master of the forge


Hide master of forge behind wall of predators. Never get out of your rhinos, ever. Profit.



But after you've tasted the tears. Just make a good list that is entirely mechanized, and you should have a great matchup with them.

Shep, your list doesn't include the Null Zone Librarian. That would make mechspam taste even sweeter.

I quit playing against demon armies, the codex is a complete abberation, I pray it is discontinued in 6th edition...

All fearless
All invulnerable
Ignores every mission set up
Always deep strikes 100%
Melee heavy
The few shooting units are awesome

What fun is there in that? I say the tactics to use are quit playing games against them...

Augustus wrote:I quit playing against demon armies, the codex is a complete abberation, I pray it is discontinued in 6th edition...

All fearless
All invulnerable
Ignores every mission set up
Always deep strikes 100%
Melee heavy
The few shooting units are awesome

Few saves better than 5+. Even if they're invulnerable, mass fire still chews them up.
You get a random half of your army against your opponent's full army.
Every Imperial army has multiple ways to screw you, whether it's including cheap mystics and getting free shots, using psychic powers like null zone, or delaying your reserves, forcing the game to be played 50% to 100% for 2 turns, and then trickling in to be defeated in detail.
You risk losing models, and entire units, with every deep strike roll.

Yeah, daemons have some nice units. They also have some serious drawbacks that can be the difference between winning and losing every game. I can understand that you feel that daemons are overpowered if you happen to play a game where all the daemon's deep strikes have been on-target and all their reserves have shown up in the first few turns. But, playing with the army, rather than against it, there are as many games where you're handed defeat due to your drawbacks as there are games that you win due to their strengths.

whitedragon wrote:Shep, your list doesn't include the Null Zone Librarian. That would make mechspam taste even sweeter.

Evilness.

Redbeard wrote:

Augustus wrote:I quit playing against demon armies, the codex is a complete abberation, I pray it is discontinued in 6th edition...

(univeral demon army stuff that is good)

...playing with the army, rather than against it, there are as many games where you're handed defeat due to your drawbacks as there are games that you win due to their strengths.

To be sure, of course that can happen. It ads to my case, defeating a demon army because they don't get their reserve rolls isn't very fun either!

Also how fun would it be to play a demon army against an Imperial Inquisitor castle
or against the 2 fleet officers
etc.

But those armies would have to be tailor made to beat demons... I say, wether the demons win or loose those slanted games just aren't very fun either. Also they have 1 pattern, every time, it's a silly army, and is usually overpowered.

Take the Warhammer Fantasy Battle Army back to the Melee Fantasy game, put the Demons back in the Chaos codex and please leave 40k to armies with guns and tanks...

Redbeard wrote:But, playing with the army, rather than against it, there are as many games where you're handed defeat due to your drawbacks as there are games that you win due to their strengths.

I've seen several batreps, where the first line was basically, 'The wrong half of my force came on Turn 1, so I knew that I was going to lose.'

Is it bad army building if you do not get the wave you want and think it equal auto lose? Or are Daemons just that precise you need the right wave all the time? If that is so then GW really blew it for them.

Augustus wrote:
To be sure, of course that can happen. It ads to my case, defeating a demon army because they don't get their reserve rolls isn't very fun either!

But this is part of the nature of the army. It's like saying that defeating a Tau army because you got into hand-to-hand isn't very fun, or defeating a monolith army because you phased them out isn't fun.

I say, wether the demons win or loose those slanted games just aren't very fun either. Also they have 1 pattern, every time, it's a silly army, and is usually overpowered.

One pattern? Not sure I agree there. But then I've played three different style daemon armies, (mono-khorne, mono-slaanesh, and mixed) and have another two (tzeentch and nurgle) to experiment with still. Saying that they're all the same is like saying that all ork armies are the same, or all marine armies are the same.

I like having a separate daemon codex. I'd like it more if you could ally them with chaos marines, much like the inquisition armies can team up with the imperials, but even still, I see nothing wrong with having a melee army in 40k. I actually think tyranids would be better, thematically, without guns too. Bugs carrying little bugs that spit even smaller bugs at you is just a stupid concept.

Flip a coin and see if your plan works, dumb.

Most of the armies I see are mirrored, so it doesn't even matter, which is an obvious solution.

I love Daemons. They play differently from any other army, but they definitely have weaknesses. Overcoming those weaknesses is what's known as "skill."

You can break the mystic castle, but you have to do it very carefully. Same as any other good opponent.

Going against Guard with potentially -2 to reserves is trickier, but still doable. That games revolves a lot more around which force comes in.

Basically, defending against Daemons largely revolves around one of two tactics, basically the ones used to defend against airborne troops in RL.

#1, you have to eliminate daemons as soon as they appear. They do their heaviest hitting in HTH, so killing them on the turn they arrive means they're not doing much. Can be tough against a well-built Daemon army, as Daemon units tend to be either tough/resilient (a la plaguebearers/bloodcrushers/greater daemons) or numerous (big troop blocks or MSU).

#2, if you can't do #1, you have to take advantage of the fact that Daemons are relatively short ranged and don't move all that fast once they hit the ground. You want to force them to spread out and/or be to far away from most of your army.

The big problem that most players face is that 1 and 2 are largely contradictory. If you bring your forces together to smash the daemons as they arrive, the corrolary is that if you don't do that, the Daemons are in amongst your lines and causing Epic Failure on your part. If you go with two, you can quickly find yourself running out of space.

Personally, I fear #2 more than I fear #1. #1 is much easier to plan for and deal with. #1 is essentially a static defense, and if the castle fails at any point, it tends to fall apart nicely.

#2 is harder to execute, but makes for a much tougher game. It requires a good build and good player to pull it off.

Augustus wrote:Flip a coin and see if your plan works, dumb.

Most of the armies I see are mirrored, so it doesn't even matter, which is an obvious solution.

I've come to the conclusion that mirror Daemon armies are the incorrect way of doing it. That leads to you facing off with 50% against an opponent's 100%, which is a bad idea. Might work against some armies, but against good players/lists, it's not going to work nearly as well.

Here is all you need to defeat pretty much any demon army.

Librarian w/ Nullzone

10 Man Sternguard w/ Rhino

or

10 Man Assault Squad w/ 2 Flamers w/ Combiflamers.


Seriously, daemon armies are gak and I have never lost a single game to them. The easiest way to defeat a Daemon army is to focus fire and assault them first. I am not joking.


3 Flamer Templates w/ Nullzone on a Bloodletter Squad will brutalize them. Mop up the remainders w/ assaulting I KNOW ITS SO CRAZY!!!

Sternguard w/ Hellfire

Hell if you want to really annoy them take a Ironclad.


Take a Whirlwind.


It's honestly not that hard to defeat a daemon army with Marines especially with the options you have.

Redbeard wrote:

Augustus wrote:
To be sure, of course that can happen. It ads to my case, defeating a demon army because they don't get their reserve rolls isn't very fun either!

But this is part of the nature of the army. It's like saying that defeating a Tau army because you got into hand-to-hand isn't very fun, or defeating a monolith army because you phased them out isn't fun.

Not really, because with demons, the only armies at any advantage are those designed for it exclusively, and they are rare (2 Floeet Officers, Mystiquis and Null Field), not so with Tau or Necrons etc.

Redbeard wrote:

Augustus wrote:I say, wether the demons win or loose those slanted games just aren't very fun either. Also they have 1 pattern, every time, it's a silly army, and is usually overpowered.

One pattern? Not sure I agree there.

One pattern, DS 50%, roll reserves, same settup every single mission. Play pattern not army pattern.

Redbeard wrote:But then I've played three different style daemon armies, (mono-khorne, mono-slaanesh, and mixed) and have another two (tzeentch and nurgle) to experiment with still. Saying that they're all the same is like saying that all ork armies are the same, or all marine armies are the same.

But they are the same because the demon codex is really flat: regardless of what is taken in a demon army, they always break the set up rules. What kind and what color of horrible close combat gribleez are coming isn't honestly much of a difference its cosmetic... The variety basicly comes down to: did they play demon engines or not, and is there any wind of chaos/famers or not. They don't have any tanks (a demon engine is just another demon prince who can shoot some) the whole army is fearless demon infantry and MCs, it's boring.

Redbeard wrote:I like having a separate daemon codex. I'd like it more if you could ally them with chaos marines,

I completely agree with you here, all the demon foot troop entries in the demon dex should by grafted into the Chaos Marine codex and the cult troops should all become elites! Solved in one swoop.

Redbeard wrote:I see nothing wrong with having a melee army in 40k.

I do, its like playing 1/2 the game (assuming you never shoot with a whole army).

To expand, the demon army can be like playing 1/3rd of 40k: No Shooting, No Morale, just assault. It's an oversimplified gimmick army.

Redbeard wrote:I actually think tyranids would be better, thematically, without guns too. Bugs carrying little bugs that spit even smaller bugs at you is just a stupid concept.

Well to go a little more OT, yea it is kind of a stupid concept. Why the tyranid army is not filled with template type weapons has always escaped me? Acid sprays anyone? Or web? How about some Poison close combat attacks? that codex really needs a rewrite. I see your concept, but tyranids need at least some guns for the reason above, shooting is 1/3rd of the game.

Back OT, tactics for demons, well I hope a lot of people will start playing the 2 fleet officers, for -2 to reserve roles and the demon army will gradually disapear from the tournament scene. Then no one will have to play against it!

Heh, sure, except then there will be no need to drop 60 points on 2 fleet officers, so that's a chicken-egg thing.

One pattern, DS 50%, roll reserves, same settup every single mission. Play pattern not army pattern.

Well, this is another weakness that you can exploit when playing against daemons...

Beating daemons with marines, assuming you're going to run marines and not marines with allies...

I think the biggest problem that marines have is that they're a jack-of-all-trades army that pays a lot of points to be ok at everything, but not really excel, and they pay a lot of points for power armour. Daemons largely ignore power armour, and are a specialist army focusing mostly on CC. That means that you're going to have a hard time beating them in CC.

You could always try to trump their setup oddities. Put everything in reserve, let them deep strike onto an empty table, then show up and pick your fights. With the majority of daemons sitting on only a 5+ save, rapid firing bolters can take a bite out what you come on near, or you can come on as far away as possible and shoot them for a few turns.

Mechanizing helps, as daemons can struggle against armour. Also, pay close attention to your special rules. Everything should be in combat squads, and spaced out enough that any given daemon charge can only wipe out 5 marines, and leave the daemons open for more fire.

What else? Make it hard for them to get good deepstrike locations. If you take units with scouts, or that can turboboost, spread out early. Make them take the risks on landing.

Centurian99 wrote:I've come to the conclusion that mirror Daemon armies are the incorrect way of doing it. That leads to you facing off with 50% against an opponent's 100%, which is a bad idea.

How is a not mirrored demon army in a any different situation?

Augustus wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:I've come to the conclusion that mirror Daemon armies are the incorrect way of doing it. That leads to you facing off with 50% against an opponent's 100%, which is a bad idea.

How is a not mirrored demon army in a any different situation?

Because you topload one wave.

Example:
'Heavy' Wave: 2 soul grinders, 12 bloodcrushers, 2 greater daemons
'Light' Wave: 3 flamers, 4x 5-man horror squads.

If I get the heavy wave, I have roughly 80% of my points on the table, rather than 50% if I mirror. If I get the light wave, I run and hide like a bitch while hoping that my heavy wave comes in sooner than later.

Interesting actually, I also think your points above on spreading out were good anti demon advice.

I'll say no more on not liking demons here. Good luck beating them Wally5788.

Take my current 1850 competitive army:

Bloodthirster, 8 Bloodcrushers, Bluescribes+9 Horrors, 2x3 flamers, 16 bloodletters, 9 Horrors, 2 Soul Grinders. 9 total units. Splits depend on opponents, but my "all-purpose" division is Bloodthirster, Bloodcrushers, Bluescribes+9 Horrors, and 2 Soul Grinders in one, and everything else in the other.

If the primary comes in, that lets me put around 1200 points on the table, in some very resilient and tough units. The softest unit is the bluescribes+horrors, with 11 T3 wounds, but those models also have a 4+ inv. Everything else takes ridiculous attention to bring down, barring bad luck.

I figure I'll lose 2 of those 5 units on the drop, but whichever three remain will be enough to get the job done once the reserves start arriving. If I lose 3, its tough, and if I lose 4, I'm probably screwed. The primary drops as close as possible, to put pressure on the enemy immediately.

If the secondary comes in, I'm dropping 16 bloodletters, 9 horrors, and 2 flamers. The flamers will usually suicide-drop at that point...the risk of losing a 105 point unit is far outeweighed by the possibility of wiping entire enemy units with their breath templates.

Horrors and bloodletters drop far more conservatively, with the bloodletters in particular aiming for a location close (but not too close) to the enemy, and most importantly, in cover. I may lose a few on the drop, but as long as I can get half or more of the models into cover, that means that if I go to ground, those troops will probably live. Not many things can actually wipe 16 T4 models that have a 3+ cover save with shooting (new guard may be able to), and nobody in their right mind charges 16 bloodletters with anything that isn't a dreadnought or half their army.

With icons, subsequent waves can easily reinforce strong points of attack, or open up new fronts.

Daemons are the ultimate 40K version of Airborne Infantry, and share many of the same strengths and weaknesses.

Centurian99 wrote:Daemons are the ultimate 40K version of Airborne Infantry, and share many of the same strengths and weaknesses.

..except guns, and morale,... and eagle patches. (Sorry had to)

Centurian99 wrote:and nobody in their right mind charges 16 bloodletters with anything that isn't a dreadnought or half their army.

Ill charge 16 blood letters with any single unit in my army



15 Blood Claws. 15 pistol shots, then 60 attacks 1 Wolf Guard Pack Leader 1 more pistol, 4 more attacks

out of 16 shots, average 8 pistol hits, 4 wounds, 2-3 unsaved. out of 64 attacks, 32 hits, 16 wounds, 12 unsaved,
oh noes your Boodletters just ate 14-15 wounds from my Blood Claws.


10 Grey Hunters, 15 pistol shots, then 40 attacks, (Ragnar blackmane) 1 pistol shot, then 6 attacks

out of 11 shots, 8 hit, 4 wound, 2-3 unsaved, 7 attacks, (one reroll) 5-6 hits, 4-5 wounds, 3-4 unsaved, 40 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 7-8 unsaved
oh noes your bloodletters just ate 12-15 wounds from my Grey Hunters

okay back on topic I find the best way to beat daemons with Marines is to go mech as noted above and start with everything on the table. Try to go second if possible. I split up my army into two separate clusters. The first group is my transports. The second group is my tanks/predators. The two groups are deployed at least 12" apart. This forces my opponent to bring in their reserves split from each other if they want to attack both of my groups. The turn after the first wave arrives my tranports move the as far way as possible and not towards my tanks. Only their fast units can assault my transports and they will only hit them in close combat on a 6+. If my opponent chases my transports with his fast units (for example a greater daemon or daemon prince with wings) then are spreading out their units... This is what you want as you can then concentrate a large portion of your army versus a smaller portion of theirs. You now have numerical superiority. My tanks are mostly a diversion intended to lure the opponent into spreading out their army moreso. The tanks roll back 6" each turn and focus all their fire on daemonic troops. My tanks are also selected to lay down as much withering dakka as possible as opposed to tank busting. If your opponent decides to chase your tanks you will eventually lose them but the tradeoff is that you are drawing the heat off your troops while whittling down theirs at the same time. I have beaten daemons everytime I used these tactics regardless of whether the mission is objective based or kill points.

G

Demogerg wrote:
15 Blood Claws. 15 pistol shots, then 60 attacks 1 Wolf Guard Pack Leader 1 more pistol, 4 more attacks

Pistols - 8.33 hits, 4.16 wounds, ~1.4 past the cover save. So you kill 1, maybe 2. But probably only 1.

Charging in...if you didn't buy grenades, you're totally screwed. 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 kills. 5 blood claws + pack leader left to strike. 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 4 kills. Congrats, you just lost 10 models in return for 4 kills. If you have frag grenades, then you kill on average 12 models. Daemons take 2 saves, still lock you in combat.

Bring on the blood claws. I'll take those numbers.

Demogerg wrote:
10 Grey Hunters, 15 pistol shots, then 40 attacks, (Ragnar blackmane) 1 pistol shot, then 6 attacks

out of 11 shots, 8 hit, 4 wound, 2-3 unsaved, 7 attacks, (one reroll) 5-6 hits, 4-5 wounds, 3-4 unsaved, 40 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 7-8 unsaved
oh noes your bloodletters just ate 12-15 wounds from my Grey Hunters

Again, if you don't have frag grenades, there's no point in even bothering to run the numbers, because your squad got gutted before they get a chance to swing. If they do have frag grenades, then your numbers still aren't taking the cover save and GTG into account, so you kill 1, maybe 2 models if you're lucky with shooting. Ragnar kills a few, but not enough to essentially prevent the bloodletters from wiping out the grey hunters.

Under no circumstance do you strike first with enough attacks to matter, and you're virtually guaranteeing that you're going to lose whatever squad you charge in with. About the only real way to deal with them in HTH is to swamp them with bodies. Marines can't do it, because a 1/1 casualty ratio plays into the Daemon players hands.

Everybody always forgets "Go To Ground".

Cent, in the above example, don't forget that in both cases the Blood Claw squad is now only 5 models and a pack leader, so even if they do wipe out the 'letters in the subsequent turn, they aren't much of a threat. Same for the Grey Hunters. You'd have to charge both squads in to have a prayer of wiping out the bloodletters in one round, and since you are only I4, you are going to take ~10 wounds to do so from their retaliatory attacks.

Of course, you are better off charging them then letting them charge you, but 16 Bloodletters is nothing to sneeze at.

whitedragon wrote:Everybody always forgets "Go To Ground".

Cent, in the above example, don't forget that in both cases the Blood Claw squad is now only 5 models and a pack leader, so even if they do wipe out the 'letters in the subsequent turn, they aren't much of a threat. Same for the Grey Hunters. You'd have to charge both squads in to have a prayer of wiping out the bloodletters in one round, and since you are only I4, you are going to take ~10 wounds to do so from their retaliatory attacks.

Of course, you are better off charging them then letting them charge you, but 16 Bloodletters is nothing to sneeze at.

Yep. As I said earlier, drop them into cover, weather 1 round of shooting (going to ground if necessary), then use the icon to bring in reserves is my usual tactic.

Doing anything except either charging in en masse (and taking the casualties), or staying more than 12" away is simply bad play.