Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, before people call me out, No I did NOT come up with this. I have seen it elsewhere and thought "Why not, I'll bring it to DakkaDakka and bathe in the glorious tears that will ensue!"

So without further delay, The arguments!

1) "When taking Morale tests, Stubborn Units always ignore any negative leadership modifiers." (Page 76, BRB)
1a) "Certain circumstances can make Morale checks harder for a unit to pass. This is represented by applying Leadership modifiers to Morale checks, which can reduce the unit's Leadership value by -1, -2 or sometimes even more." (Page 43, BRB)
2) Weaken Resolve states that "For the remainder of the turn the enemy units Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilising the power (to a minimum of 2)." (Page 47, C: IG)
3) So, when a "Stubborn" unit has Weaken Resolve cast upon it, does it suffer when taking a morale check? (Page Cluster@%$&)

I have seen arguments for and against, which go like so:
For:
The Weaken Resolve effect is not a modifier, but instead changes the leadership value, so stubborn does not help.

Against:
Both the rules for Modifiers and Weaken Resolve talk use the word "Reduce" to describe what happens. As it is the same wording, Weaken Resolve is a Modifier, so is ignored by Stubborn.

Now, a quick reminder: Units with Stubborn only ignore the modifiers for Morale tests, a very specific type of Leadership test, so if they have to take a Pinning test or some such other LD based test, or are hit by a Neural Shredder, they do suffer from the reduced Leadership. This is clear as crystal, so please don't drag this into it.

As for what I think? Well, I have a very strong inclination to one argument, but I shall not say what it is just yet. I'd rather have a balanced debate rather than 42 pages of Gwar! Bashing
OK I lie. I'm (tentatively) Against them suffering the penalty because the wording is just far too similar for my liking.I do however, see the logic of the For Argument, so I am as of yet Undecided. But, as I said, the issue was raised, and by God-Emperor we shall have a debate about it.

I would say that Weaken Resolve does not have an effect on Stubborn units.

My take is that Weaken Resolve is indeed a modifier and not a change to the targets Leadership value. For the remainder of the turn the enemy units Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilising the power (to a minimum of 2)." (Page 47, C: IG)

One can easily exchange 'reduces' for 'reduced by -1 per psker' and the statement would not change one bit. They both mean the same thing.

I'm online and seeing the beginning of this here, so may as well take a stab at this one. This buttresses the argument that Weaken Resolve is not a modifier.

There's page 2, too, "Modifying Dice Rolls." "Sometimes, you may have to modify the result of the dice roll.... Roll the dice and add or subtract the number to or from the score to get the final result...a combination of methods may be used, such as 3D6-3..."

Add that to "Morale Check Modifers" on page 43, "Certain circumstances may make Morale checks harder for a unit to pass."

Add that to "Morale Checks" on page 43 before that, "Morale Checks (also called Morale tests) are taken by rolling 2D6 and comparing the total to the unit's Leadership value."

From all this, we can see that the proper format for any modifier has to be given as a penalty or bonus to a die roll. In this case, the die roll is the Morale Check, which is 2D6. As Weaken Resolve is not in the format modifying the roll - it modifies the unit's leadership value you compare the roll to, not the roll - it should not be considered as a morale check modifier.

While reducing LD from 10 to 8 and giving a -2 morale check penalty look like they do the same things, they don't. The first will not be subject to Stubborn, while the second will. (Aside: Hey, you can still take positive modifiers with Stubborn!)

Edit:Kids don't type in a rules forum while reading/writing in other forums and watching TV you will look stupid. (Deletes my stupid comment I now disagree with after reading my own rule book.... )

Mr.R4nd0m wrote:RAW it is modifying the stat not the roll.

Ah yes, but Stubborn says nothing about modifying their Morale Roll results, it talks about "negative leadership modifiers" which are things that "reduce the unit's Leadership value". So the fact that it is modifying the stat and not the roll is the whole reason WHY stubborn will work.

But, Still undecided. Woo me over people

True. Kinda.

It would go

2 happens then 1a happens then 1 looks at 1a for any negatives given, sees the effect of 2 and ignores it.
Explanation: Because of 1a's wording "This is represented by applying Leadership modifiers to Morale checks" so even by modifying the stat 1a turns it into modifying the roll/test and therefor 1 ignore the negetive modifier.

I think it is crystal clear, Weaken Resolve does nothing against Stubborn units.

The only reason this is even people are even debating this IMHO is because it doesn't make 'sense' from a fluff point of view.

Changing a stat is the same thing as modifying it, so the argument presented as to why Weaken Resolve is not a leadership modfification has no logical basis.


Here is the logical argument as to why Weaken Resolve has no effect on Stubborn units:


P1. Weaken Resolve changes (reduces) a unit's Leadership Value.
P2. The definition of the word 'modify' is: "to change somewhat the form or qualities of".
C1. Weaken Resolve therefore negatively modifies a unit's Leadership Value.

P1. 'Stubborn' units ignore 'negative Leadership modifiers'.
P2. Weaken Resolve negatively modifies a unit's Leadership Value.
C2. Stubborn units therefore ignore the negative modification created by Weaken Resolve.

yakface wrote:P1. Weaken Resolve changes (reduces) a unit's Leadership Value.
P2. The definition of the word 'modify' is: "to change somewhat the form or qualities of".
C1. Weaken Resolve therefore negatively modifies a unit's Leadership Value.

P1. 'Stubborn' units ignore 'negative Leadership modifiers'.
P2. Weaken Resolve negatively modifies a unit's Leadership Value.
C2. Stubborn units therefore ignore the negative modification created by Weaken Resolve.

Now, ya see, that is what I wanted to write, but I have all the eloquence of a 1 Legged Squiggoth. Thanks for making it readable yakface

So, as I said, I was kinda leaning this way anyway, but now I'm pretty much certain (and no yakface it wasn't just because of you )

It was because of me. This is why Stubborn is so much more powerful than Fearless.

yakface wrote:I think it is crystal clear, Weaken Resolve does nothing against Stubborn units.

The only reason this is even people are even debating this IMHO is because it doesn't make 'sense' from a fluff point of view.

Changing a stat is the same thing as modifying it,
*edit* deleting everything else in a friedly sort of way

I disagree (in a limited sort of way). How can you possibly compare an ability (not the one in question) that reduces to WS 1 to an ability that reduces WS by a set number (or by a percentage). 'Changes' and 'reduces' are two very different things.

As a caveat, I'll admit it's late and I might be confuting Fantasy Daemons with 40K, so that particular example may be offside.

I'm not arguing that the Psykers work on Stubborn in general, just pointing out that there are modifiers that change a number and modifiers that have a +/- X value that are applied to a number, and that those are not the same thing. Or, more specifically, that Yak's blanket statement here seems to be inadequate to the task it's been set. For example, the Culexus Assassin would affect a stubborn unit. The fact that the assassin changes a unit's leadership to 7 isn't even close to the same thing as it applying a negative modifier to achieve the same end.

To be more specific, P2 is a false premise. It can probably be touched up (and the conclusion is probably the RAI correct answer), but it doesn't hold water as is.

Gwar's original point still stands of course, insofar as he identifies that there are a discreet subset of tests that count as 'Morale tests', and the commentary here should be limted to just those tests. So, I suppose, I mostly agree with Yak, provided he means just Morale tests and not everything (at which point he'd be wrong). P2 nonwithstanding.

Okay here's my argument fixed to incorporate the fact that the rules have a more specific definition of what a Leadership Modifier is:


P1. Weaken Resolve reduces a unit's Leadership Value by a numerical value (the amount of psykers in the unit).
P2. Pg 43 of the rulebook defines Leadership Modifiers as something that reduces a unit's Leadership by a numerical value.
C1. Weaken Resolve is therefore a Leadership modifier.

P3. 'Stubborn' units ignore 'negative Leadership modifiers'.
P4. Weaken Resolve is a Leadership modifier (C1).
C2. Stubborn units therefore ignore the negative modifier created by Weaken Resolve.

yakface wrote:

Okay here's my argument fixed to incorporate the fact that the rules have a more specific definition of what a Leadership Modifier is:


P1. Weaken Resolve reduces a unit's Leadership Value by a numerical value (the amount of psykers in the unit).
P2. Pg 43 of the rulebook defines Leadership Modifiers as something that reduces a unit's Leadership by a numerical value.
C1. Weaken Resolve is therefore a Leadership modifier.

P3. 'Stubborn' units ignore 'negative Leadership modifiers'.
P4. Weaken Resolve is a Leadership modifier (C1).
C2. Stubborn units therefore ignore the negative modifier created by Weaken Resolve.

For morale checks.

Praise the Emperor for Commissars.

Yad wrote:I would say that Weaken Resolve does not have an effect on Stubborn units.

My take is that Weaken Resolve is indeed a modifier and not a change to the targets Leadership value. For the remainder of the turn the enemy units Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilising the power (to a minimum of 2)." (Page 47, C: IG)

One can easily exchange 'reduces' for 'reduced by -1 per psker' and the statement would not change one bit. They both mean the same thing.

I agree with this.

OK, so do things like the Culexus assassin or Necron Pariahs reduce a Stubborn unit's Leadership?

Yak, gotta disagree with you on this one. Gaylord spelled it out. It's not a modifier as it does not adjust the die roll by adding or subtracting from the die roll (as per the main rulebook definition of "modify" on page 2), instead it introduces a temporary change to the actual statistic, similar to that caused by the Ork Mob rule. Subtle difference but it is a difference.

I agree with yakface and Gwar!'s thoughts, Weaken reduces Ld, and is ignored by stubborn.
Kantor/Lysander anyone?

don_mondo wrote:OK, so do things like the Culexus assassin or Necron Pariahs reduce a Stubborn unit's Leadership?

Yak, gotta disagree with you on this one. Gaylord spelled it out. It's not a modifier as it does not adjust the die roll by adding or subtracting from the die roll (as per the main rulebook definition of "modify" on page 2), instead it introduces a temporary change to the actual statistic, similar to that caused by the Ork Mob rule. Subtle difference but it is a difference.

The section you quote on page 2 is in regards to modifying dice rolls. We aren't talking about modifying dice rolls we're talking about modifying leadership (which is what Weaken Resolve does). Page 43 covers that and is pretty darn clear.

My argument is logically sound and unless you can disprove something I put in there, it holds up.

Yak is right on.

Weaken Resolve modifies Leadership (not die rolls), and Stubborn ignores any negative modifiers to LD...it is very, very clear if you read the two rules side by side.

I have read them, still don't see it. Guess I'm just .... Stubborn...........

That interpretation would logically apply to both the Pariah and Culexus ability, as even if it changes the LD stat to a number, it could be considered a reduction if it's lower.

Another possible problem with reading Stubborn that way is that you may now be saying it does not apply to a "-3 penalty to morale check" situation. The Morale Check is a 2d6 die roll, and a modifier to a die roll is supposed to be given as a minus or plus to it. Stubborn ignores "negative leadership modifiers" but then does ignore Morale Check modifiers? If I ignore the "When taking Morale Checks" part to use the "ignore any negative leadership modifiers", where do I get the ability to ignore negative Morale Check modifiers? A -1 to Morale tests is not a negative Leadership modifier - that's a modifier to the Morale Check.

don_mondo wrote:OK, so do things like the Culexus assassin or Necron Pariahs reduce a Stubborn unit's Leadership?

gaylord500 wrote:That interpretation would logically apply to both the Pariah and Culexus ability, as even if it changes the LD stat to a number, it could be considered a reduction if it's lower.

I just want to point out here, that this is wrong. The "Soulless" flavour of rules that set a models Ld to a Specific number, are NOT modifiable". For reference, the two rules state "Any enemy unit with a model within 12" of a Pariah counts as having Leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that" and "Any unit (Friend or Foe) with a model within 12" of the Culexus Assasin counts as having Leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that."

There is no mention of any reduction in either rule. Weaken resolve and the wording for what constituents a modifier are (surprisingly for GW) rather exacting, in they they must "reduce" the leadership. The Soulless rules say the models "count as" with no mention if reducing, so it cannot be counted as a modifier.

Now if the Soulless rule said "Reduces the Leadership to 7" then you would have a case, but it does not. C'est la Vie.

Stubborn units ignore the negative effects of Weaken Resolve.

Fearless units do not.

If a unit of Obliterators (Fearless) got hit with a full strength Weaken Resolve and then the Callidus Assassin fired her neural shredder, this would be an AP1 instant death effect (Ld/S8 vs. Ld/T2). If the same thing happened to Captain Lysander, it'd be Ld/S8 vs. Ld/T10 and would would on 6s.

If either the Oblits or Lysander were in the sphere of influence of Pariahs, then their leadership would be 10(7)(2) for the Oblits and 10(7)(7) for Lysander.

Stubborn is more powerful than fearless as long as you don't fail your unmodified leadership test.

sourclams wrote:If a unit of Obliterators (Fearless) got hit with a full strength Weaken Resolve and then the Callidus Assassin fired her neural shredder, this would be an AP1 instant death effect (Ld/S8 vs. Ld/T2). If the same thing happened to Captain Lysander, it'd be Ld/S8 vs. Ld/T10 and would would on 6s.

If either the Oblits or Lysander were in the sphere of influence of Pariahs, then their leadership would be 10(7)(2) for the Oblits and 10(7)(7) for Lysander.

Stubborn is more powerful than fearless as long as you don't fail your unmodified leadership test.

OK, flat out wrong. Stubborn would have absolutely zero effect against the Weaken Resolve/Neural Shredder combo. Lysander would be LD 2 and would be wounded on a 2+. Even IF I accepted that Stubborn worked against Weaken Resolve, it would ONLY work in regards to Morale tests and nothing else.

However, I'm actually up in the air about whether or not the Neural Shredder can cause Instant Death against a target whose Leadership has been lowered through Weaken Resolve. Instant Death says to use the orignal Toughness in the case of a model with toughness bonuses, question is whether that also applies to something that lowers the "toughness".

don_mondo wrote:OK, flat out wrong. Stubborn would have absolutely zero effect against the Weaken Resolve/Neural Shredder combo. Lysander would be LD 2 and would be wounded on a 2+. Even IF I accepted that Stubborn worked against Weaken Resolve, it would ONLY work in regards to Morale tests and nothing else.

Correct.

don_mondo wrote:However, I'm actually up in the air about whether or not the Neural Shredder can cause Instant Death against a target whose Leadership has been lowered through Weaken Resolve. Instant Death says to use the orignal Toughness in the case of a model with toughness bonuses, question is whether that also applies to something that lowers the "toughness".

This is a valid question. The way I would see it is that it is a highly special rule, so the special rule should over-ride the general rules, so for the purposes of the Neural Shredder, you use whatever Ld They happen to be. Not to mention there is no real sort of precedent for something that Lowers toughness that I can remember, and the ID rules only apply to bonuses, not penalties.
Although, as I said, it's kind of iffy, so I may be wrong on this regard.

See, we can agree...................

Last week in a trial game, we decided to run it as using the lowered Leadership. Did you know that an Eldar Avatar doesn't have Eternal Warrior..................? Hehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Indeed. We had an Apoc Game here using the new codex with proxied Choirs and a lot of assassins (someone had that Apoc Datasheet).

Half the Enemy was Pinned down the entire game. Ld2 Pinning tests are not fun

Just for fun, I'll chime in and agree with Gwar and Yak that Weaken Resolve is a reduction, and thus has no effect against Stubborn units. I also agree that effects that specifically change a unit's Ld to a defined number, would be effected by Weaken Resolve since it is not a reduction but a redefinition.

KaloranSLC wrote:I also agree that effects that specifically change a unit's Ld to a defined number, would be effected by Weaken Resolve since it is not a reduction but a redefinition.

Now, I have not actually said anything on this yet (I mentioned that Stubborn units are affected by "Soulless" type rules for all check, including Morale checks) but you raise a good point.

As far as I am aware, all Special Rules currently in use that set an Enemies Unit's Leadership Characteristic to a Specific Level have the stipulation that it is "unless it would normally be less than that."
This throws up potential issues as to how the two effects interact.

Say we have a unit with a Leadership characteristic of 10 which is being affected by a "Soulless" type rule. Their leadership has been reduced to 7. Then Weaken Resolve is cast upon them, giving them a -5 Modifier to their Ld Characteristic making it Ld 2. Now, at this point, Soulless sees that their Leadership is less than that, so would stop working, meaning they have Ld10 Again that has been modified by -5 for all purposes, making them Ld 5 rather than Ld 2.

Or, do we recognise that the "normally" in the soulless rule means that it refers to base Ld only?

I for one believe that the "Normally less than" is referring to their base Leadership, but the interaction that I spelled out there just struck me as a Possible way of it being played out.

Your thoughts?

Well, I think it is safe to say it would be nice if a FAQ cleared this up.

Personally, I think it best way to play it is that Stubborn units are not effected by Weaken Resolve for Morale tests.

However, I can see some argument that WR cast on a unit changes the Leadership, and does not actually change the result of the morale test with negatives. That is to say, you are not rolling morale and subtracting WR, but instead rolling Leadership and comparing it to the Leadership of the unit (which happens to be lower from WR).

1)It tells you how to modify DICE ROLLS in the early part of the rulebook.
Page 2:

MODIFYING DICE ROLLS
Sometimes, you may have to modify the result of the dice roll. This is noted as D6 plus or minus a number,
such as D6+1 or D6-2.

Does Weaken Resolve say to do this? No. Weaken Resolve does not modify a DICE ROLL. Let's move on.

Page 8:

Modifiers may apply to the Leadership characteristic in particularly trying circumstances – for example, -1 if the unit suffered wounds from an Ordnance barrage weapon, as described later.

Page 43:

MORALE CHECK MODIFIERS
Certain circumstances can make Morale checks harder
for a unit to pass. This is represented by applying
Leadership modifiers to Morale checks, which can
reduce the unit’s Leadership value by -1, -2 or
sometimes even more.

Stubborn USR: "When taking Morale tests, stubborn
units always ignore any negative Leadership modifiers."

Stubborn ignores negative Ld. modifiers when taking Morale checks.
Ld. modifiers can reduce the unit's Ld. value.
Weaken Resolve reduces the unit's Ld. value.
Therefore, Weaken Resolve is a negative Ld. modifier.
Therefore, Stubborn units ignore it when taking Morale checks.

Except that Weaken resolve isn't a modifier to the Morale check as you've outlined above.

1. The quote about modifying Dice rolls doesn't apply since WR doesn't modify the die roll in anything like the examples.

2.As for the quote from page 43 you missed the part that goes "as described later in the different types of Morale checks." All those modifiers work in the if X is the case the Leadership Modifier is Y for that particular type of Morale test. In all those cases (of listed Morale Check Modifiers) the modifiers only affect the units leadership for the purposes of the test.

So I'd agree fully if WR was worded like those Modifiers, but it's not, it uses a very seperate mechanic. The fact that the end result (a lowered leadership) is the same does not mean that they are the same thing and subject in the same way to the Stubborn rule.

Essentially, WR is not a Morale check modifier as described in page 43 because it doesn't use the same rules as those modifiers.

Stubborn is also pretty specific in stating that it ignores the Negative leadership modifiers "presented in this book". The Ld modifiers in question are the ones in the Morale test section. WR doesn't work the same way as those modifiers, so I really don't think Stubborn applies. Not because WR isn't "listed in the book" either but specifically because the mechanic is different.

I just can't see a way to assume that the two seperate mechanics are actually the same thing. I'm happy enough to be proved wrong here, I just want to make sure that all the bases have been covered.