Stubborn vs. Weaken Resolve - Another Quality Gwar! Approved Gakstorm

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**InquisitorFabius**

Fenris-77 wrote:Stubborn is also pretty specific in stating that it ignores the Negative leadership modifiers "presented in this book". The Ld modifiers in question are the ones in the Morale test section. WR doesn't work the same way as those modifiers, so I really don't think Stubborn applies. Not because WR isn't "listed in the book" either but specifically because the mechanic is different.

Nowhere in the description of Stubborn does it state "presented in this book." If you want to add to the rules debate, then use the printed rules, not your added interpretations.

**Fenris-77**

I'm pretty sure it's there man. Last line, first paragraph of the stubborn USR states that:

"When taking Morale tests, Stubborn units always ignore the negative Leadership modifiers listed in this book."

*edit* I even phoned my local store to make sure the verbiage matched what the PDF on my laptop says, so I'm pretty sure I'm right.

**InquisitorFabius**

Page 76 in the BGB states no such thing.

**Fenris-77**

Odd. I'm headed down to the store anyway so I'll check when I get there. (my hardcopy BGB isn't where I'm at just now).

**Major Malfunction**

Mine doesn't say anything about "in this book" in the Stubborn USR either.

Fenris, what's the copyright date in the back of your book? Very last page in the index, down near the bottom?

**Fenris-77**

The Green Git wrote:Mine doesn't say anything about "in this book" in the Stubborn USR either.

Fenris, what's the copyright date in the back of your book? Very last page in the index, down near the bottom?

No idea, but as soon as I've seen the hard copy I'll let you know. The guy who read out the rule for me is very reliable, so I'm sure it's there though (at least in that copy). I love it when then change stuff between printings!

**yakface**

Fenris-77 wrote:
The Green Git wrote:Mine doesn't say anything about "in this book" in the Stubborn USR either.

Fenris, what's the copyright date in the back of your book? Very last page in the index, down near the bottom?

No idea, but as soon as I've seen the hard copy I'll let you know. The guy who read out the rule for me is very reliable, so I'm sure it's there though (at least in that copy). I love it when then change stuff between printings!

I'm pretty certain there haven't been any changes like that in the rulebook.

**Fenris-77**

yakface wrote:
Fenris-77 wrote:
The Green Git wrote:Mine doesn't say anything about "in this book" in the Stubborn USR either.

Fenris, what's the copyright date in the back of your book? Very last page in the index, down near the bottom?

No idea, but as soon as I've seen the hard copy I'll let you know. The guy who read out the rule for me is very reliable, so I'm sure it's there though (at least in that copy). I love it when then change stuff between printings!

I'm pretty certain there haven't been any changes like that in the rulebook.

I thought it very odd. I'll have a page reference and such in about an hour (or comfirmation that someone at my store can't read).

The fact that the nechanics for the two things works differently should be addressed either way though. (IMO anyway)

**DrDaBomB**

Gwar! wrote:Say we have a unit with a Leadership characteristic of 10 which is being affected by a "Soulless" type rule. Their leadership has been reduced to 7. Then Weaken Resolve is cast upon them, giving them a -5 Modifier to their Ld Characteristic making it Ld 2. Now, at this point, Soulless sees that their Leadership is less than that, so would stop working, meaning they have Ld10 Again that has been modified by -5 for all purposes, making them Ld 5 rather than Ld 2.

Or, do we recognise that the "normally" in the soulless rule means that it refers to base Ld only?

I for one believe that the "Normally less than" is referring to their base Leadership, but the interaction that I spelled out there just struck me as a Possible way of it being played out.

Your thoughts?

Perhaps it would be more trippy if the weaken resolve only made a reduction of, say, -2. Then:

Soulless reduces it to 7
WR reduces it to 5
Soulless stops working (?) so Ld goes back to 10, minus 2, making Ld8
Then Soulless starts working again (!!?) and it's Ld7? But that's without the modifier. So it's Ld5 again. Infinite loop anyone?

I'd have to agree with your point that it only works with base leadership. Or that Games Workshop didn't forsee the Psyker battle squad when they made the necron codex.

**Trekari**

Re-read Stubborn from the actual 5th Ed. BRB.

They ignore any negative Leadership modifiers when making a Morale check.

What are negative Leadership modifiers? Things that reduce Ld.

What does WR do? Reduces Ld. It doesn't matter whether it is a reduction only for a Morale Check or not, because Stubborn says ANY negative Ld. modifiers, not "any negative Ld. modifiers that only apply to Morale checks."

**KaloranSLC**

Gwar! wrote:
KaloranSLC wrote:I also agree that effects that specifically change a unit's Ld to a defined number, would be effected by Weaken Resolve since it is not a reduction but a redefinition.
Now, I have not actually said anything on this yet (I mentioned that Stubborn units are affected by "Soulless" type rules for all check, including Morale checks) but you raise a good point.

It was mentioned in another post or two, and I agreed with it.

Gwar! wrote:As far as I am aware, all Special Rules currently in use that set an Enemies Unit's Leadership Characteristic to a Specific Level have the stipulation that it is "unless it would normally be less than that."
This throws up potential issues as to how the two effects interact.

Say we have a unit with a Leadership characteristic of 10 which is being affected by a "Soulless" type rule. Their leadership has been reduced to 7. Then Weaken Resolve is cast upon them, giving them a -5 Modifier to their Ld Characteristic making it Ld 2. Now, at this point, Soulless sees that their Leadership is less than that, so would stop working, meaning they have Ld10 Again that has been modified by -5 for all purposes, making them Ld 5 rather than Ld 2.

Or, do we recognise that the "normally" in the soulless rule means that it refers to base Ld only?

I for one believe that the "Normally less than" is referring to their base Leadership, but the interaction that I spelled out there just struck me as a Possible way of it being played out.

Your thoughts?

That's a tough one. My immediate response is to say that the modifier does not set the target's Ld to 5, but reduces it by 5. Thus, the Soulless effect specifically sets the Ld value to 7, and that in turn is reduced by the -5 modifier to 2. Again, it's just my first response, and I could see the situation going both ways as well.

**Fenris-77**

Well, I've read the page in question (finally) and there's nothing like the phrase that appears in the pdf I have. Without that little bit I think I've no choice but to provisionally agree with the prevailing wisdom. Now all I need is some friends who can actually bloody read and I'll be set.

**Black Blow Fly**

I am with Yak 100%.

G

**Crablezworth**

So stubborn units ignore the modification for MORALE checks... what about pinning checks? Checks to regroup? and so on..

**nosferatu1001**

What type of checks are Pinning checks?

that answers your question. Also - holy threadomancy batman!

**Frazzled**

Little bit of necromancing here.