Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I hit a squadron of 2 russ's for 3 pens and 2 glances,can the controlling player put all the pens on 1 or do they spread out pens first then glances or vice versa

Yes, they can allocate them however they want.

They sure can. Idk if they have to have different weapons though?

I dont believe with odd numbers you can allocate all of the pens to one vehicle though.


3 Leman Russes

2 pens

2 Glan

Pretty sure you gotta spread it equally as possible.

If you have two men left in a squad and receive five wounds, you can put the three AP1 wounds on the same guy, then roll two saves on the other; I do not see how it is any different with vehicles. I would say you can.

Well only if the two guys have different wargear. With Vehicles you allocate them individually and then roll for each vehicle separately. The requirement that infantry have is not needed.

I believe it works

You shot 5 Combimeltas and hit with 5. You roll 3 penetrating and two glances against that units common armour value.


You now allocate "wounds" and here is the bolded.

allocate.... he would allocate wounds to members of a NORMAL UNIT
If the leman russ are armed IDENTICALLLY ; you divide evenly as you can; which means you could if they are armed identically go 2 penetrations, 1 penetration, 2 glances.

But if they are not armed IDENTICALLY; their treated as a unit with complex rules as it states under normal unit rules that they use different allocation for models armed differently.


So if you have 3 Leman Russes , heavy bolter, 1 plasma , 1 auto cannon it becomes a COMPLEX unit.

So you now pick which tanks have what but you must allocate first.

Now you can go with the glances;

Leman Russ (plasma) 1 glance

Leman Russ ( heavy bolter ( 1 glance)

Leman Russ Auto ( 1 Penetration as you have ran out of glances )

Now they have all be allocated one wound now since it is a uneven number you decide where the other 2 penetrations go.

Im going to bold this part

Once all models in the taget unit have one wound allocated to them the process is repeated and the player must allocate a second wound to all models in the target unit before he can allocate a third wound

So we have 2 more penetrations we must allocate.

So now you choose which 2 tanks you allocate those last two penetrations to, but you cannot allocate a 3rd "wound" unless all others have 2 "wounds".


So you cannot say for instance. Go Alright I put 3 penetrations on one tanke and 2 glances on the other.

Its done in a step gradual pattern.

With 3 Pens and 2 glances on 3 tanks, you can put 2 pens on 1, and then either 2 glances on one and a pen on one, or a Glance and pen on one and a Glance on the other.

Also, why are you bringing wound allocation into this? The Squadron rules do not reference them AT ALL. You use a totally different method of allocating the hits.

Page 64 small rulebook 2nd paragraph left.

Once all of the armour penetration rolls have been made the player controlling the squadron allocates the glancing and pentrating hits to squadron members as he would allocate wounds to members of a normal unit


Normal Units page 20; 2nd paragraph if all models in a unit are the same .. 3rd paragraph on the hand it is common for models to have different wargear and characters with different profiles; the wounds the unit has suffered must be saving throws (see page 25)

Which Page 25 states the rules for complex units.


In this case "wounds" are armour penetration rolls. Then the player must allocate them accordingly. Which if its a even number is fine but when its uneven it gets dicey.

Ok fine, if the squadron are all different, you can play shenanigans with the "wounds". If you have 2 members, 3 Pen hits and 2 glancing hits, you are most certainly permitted to place 3 Pen Hits on 1 and 2 Glancing hits on the other. With 3 members, one tank will have 1 "wound" and the other two will have 2 each. Which ones each tank takes is up to the controlling player.

P.S. Why do people keep stating "Mini Rulebook Page xx". They are the EXACT SAME PAGE NUMBERS! Honestly, how do people not understand that yet?

Wait, so, if two vehicles in a squadron are the same, and I roll three pen and two glances, and two of the penetrating hits rolls result in "wrecked" or worse, both are blown up? He can't stack three pens on one and 2 glances on the other?


I just imagine that it would cause problems since vehicles can be damaged in a variety of ways.

Free allocation though allows you to always have somewhat of a "vehicle scapegoat", where if one gets a weapon blown off, it immediately becomes the one hit automatically by every single bad hit. If you get one hit only, it'll always be on him. Pen and glance, he'll always take the pen. Seems a bit odd that way but I don't suppose there's any other way to do it simply, unless you went with Battlefleet Gothic rules of "closest member of the squadron takes hits first until it is destroyed" - which is essentially the same thing, though it would allow you to maneouver around to hit fresh vehicles in an attempt to cripple them without wasting an "annihilated" result on a weaponless landspeeder.

I dont have the big rule book so I wouldnt know if their different or not.

My point of this is that yes you can do that; put 3 on one and 2 on the other in a complex unit however if its a odd number of penetrations and a odd number of models in the unit and a odd number of pens it gets funky on the distribution..


edit:

To the above; no you allocate pens and glances before you roll for damage. You dont roll damage until after allocation. Then you roll for each model to see if it is the one.

First you allocate the pens/glances. Three on one, two on the other, whatever.

Once allocated, you roll on the table to see what the result actually is.

No swapping around with 'known' results; roll for each one individually so that it's obvious what actually happened.

After i roll all hits i make the opponent and myself go one at a time glances first to make him feel like im taking for ever
because i dont get squads of defilers, or land raiders.

Russ's were identical,i let him put the 3 pens on 1 russ but it didn't feel right(i hit the squadron before they moved(autohit) with scouts,no point kicking a brother when hes down)its does say follow wound allocation so i guess 2 pens on 1 and 1 on the other(2 in squadron,identical setup) is fair

buddy999 wrote:Russ's were identical,i let him put the 3 pens on 1 russ but it didn't feel right(i hit the squadron before they moved(autohit) with scouts,no point kicking a brother when hes down)its does say follow wound allocation so i guess 2 pens on 1 and 1 on the other(2 in squadron,identical setup) is fair

It may seem fair but it's not what the rules tell you to do, you follow the rules for complex units and allocating wounds when allocating the glancing hits / pens, but once they are allocated the rules stop having anything to do with the wounding rules for normal units, he is well within his right to put all 3 pens on 1 tank and the 2 glances on the other.

This is correct as long as they are identical. It gets weird when they are considered a complex unit.

Honestly the whole vehicle squadron thing is kind of screwy.

Hollismason wrote:This is correct as long as they are identical. It gets weird when they are considered a complex unit.

Honestly the whole vehicle squadron thing is kind of screwy.

no, it's not, they are always effectively a complex unit because glances/pens are always assigned as though the unit were complex and then these are resolved against individual models, not groups of models, it's not "screwy".

Where complex units comes into play is in the making of saving throws. Wounds are always allocated one model at a time, then the saving throws are rolled in "groups."

In a unit of vehicles, the pens and glances are allocated how the controlling player wants, but since saving throws don't enter the equation, complex units rules don't really enter the equation either, so you're free to load up pens on one tank if that's what the results allow you to do.

willydstyle wrote:Where complex units comes into play is in the making of saving throws. Wounds are always allocated one model at a time, then the saving throws are rolled in "groups."

In a unit of vehicles, the pens and glances are allocated how the controlling player wants, but since saving throws don't enter the equation, complex units rules don't really enter the equation either, so you're free to load up pens on one tank if that's what the results allow you to do.

Ding ding ding

We have a winner!

I disagree as the rules state pretty clearly that it follows normal unit rules and under normal unit rules

on the other hand it is common for units to include models with different weapons or wargear and characters with different profiles and sometimes eve different armour . In these cases we need to know exactly who has been wounded and this requires and extra step in the shooting process. The wounds the unit has suffermust be allocated onto specific models before saving throws are taken; this extra step is explained after the basic rules


What you are missing is that the saving throw part of this case is removed because vehicles do not have saving throws except in the case of cover saves.


You remove saving throws in this case just as you replace "wounds" with armour penetration.

Hollismason wrote:I disagree as the rules state pretty clearly that it follows normal unit rules and under normal unit rules

on the other hand it is common for units to include models with different weapons or wargear and characters with different profiles and sometimes eve different armour . In these cases we need to know exactly who has been wounded and this requires and extra step in the shooting process. The wounds the unit has suffermust be allocated onto specific models before saving throws are taken; this extra step is explained after the basic rules


What you are missing is that the saving throw part of this case is removed because vehicles do not have saving throws except in the case of cover saves.


You remove saving throws in this case just as you replace "wounds" with armour penetration.

While a strict reading of the rules would support your supposition, in which case say a unit of 2 identical vehicles results in 2 pens and 3 glances, and both pens are vehicle destroyed you would lose both vehicles, if you read the example in italics under the "damage results against squadrons" section on page 64, it tells you to allocate the hits, then roll damage results based on which vehicles suffered pens and/or glances. The example even has the player putting two pens on one vehicle, two glances on another, and 1 pen and glance on a third vehicle.

So, what we have is RAW directly contradicting an example, given in the rulebook of RAI.

Funny that. I'll play like the example says.

Please, use quote tags! saves on the bold

There is no difference between wound and AP, meaning in a complex unit (all different) where you have 2 LR tanks, 3pen and 2 glance you can put all 3 pen on one tank no issue.

If you have 2 tanks the same then you roll the pens and glances as a group, removing vehicles as required. Again, this is the same as normal infantry wound allocation - you spread equally but make saves per unique group.

Hollismason wrote:I disagree as the rules state pretty clearly that it follows normal unit rules and under normal unit rules

on the other hand it is common for units to include models with different weapons or wargear and characters with different profiles and sometimes eve different armour . In these cases we need to know exactly who has been wounded and this requires and extra step in the shooting process. The wounds the unit has suffermust be allocated onto specific models before saving throws are taken; this extra step is explained after the basic rules


What you are missing is that the saving throw part of this case is removed because vehicles do not have saving throws except in the case of cover saves.


You remove saving throws in this case just as you replace "wounds" with armour penetration.

You only use the rules for allocation from the earlier rules though, and once you have allocated all the hits following standard rules, you revert to the rules for vehicles because they don't tell you to use the earlier rules for wound allocation to resolve saves or damage results. Thus you effectively NEVER have groups of similar models in a vehicle unit. You are inferring far too much from this rule.

While my original conclusion was correct, it was correct for the wrong reason

The rules for vehicle squadrons say to allocate hits as per the rules for normal units. However, the phrase "normal units" is not really defined.

So, looking at the rules for non-complex units, you find that you don't actually allocate hits at all.

So, the only place where the rules for allocating hits is in the area for complex units.

Therefore, you use the rules for complex units for allocating hits, because that's what the section for vehicles tells you to do, regardless of whether the vehicles are identical or not.

So, the RAW is a little convoluted, but works just fine with the example given in the book.

Drunkenspleen has it right.

The get allocated like a 'normal unit', but the rest is done by the squadrion rules.

The rules for normal units state that if you have unit members with different weaponry you use complex unit rules to define allocation.


Ill say this as clearly as I can;

The normal unit rules state that you use these rules when models in the squad vary

The vehicle squadron rules state you use the normal unit rules. The normal unit rules state when allocating hits to differently armed models then you use the complex unit rules which are a section of normal unit rules.



I tell you to look at A

When you look at A it says to look at B.

It's not hard to follow.


edit:

The example you are using does not state any thing of the sort that the vehicles in question are differently armed. It is if you look at it in context of understanding and comprehension a example on and this is important Damage results against Squadrons

Let's go ahead post this.

For example, a squad of space marine devastators opens fire against a squadron of 3 Eldar Vypers, scores several hits, and rolls for armour penetration against the squadrons Armour Value of 10. This results in 3 penetrating hits and 3 Glancing hits. The eldar player allocates two penetrating hits on one Vyper , Two glancing hits on antoher and on penetratin and one glancing hit on the last vyper. He then takes the cover saves for his Vypers (4+, for example), saving one of the penetrating hits. Finally the opponent rolls for damage for the two glancing and two penetrating hits that are left and the results are immediatel applied on the Vypers that suffered them

First off it doesnt deal with anything but how to go about firing on a normal unit it says nothing of how the Vypers are armed nor does it deal with differently armed Vypers. The rules do not assume that at all or infer that. Second it is important to realize in the last case of which happens that you do differentiate between models in a Vehicle squadron and apply results to that specific model. Other wise it would state otherwise.


The example you are trying to use has insufficient information with in it to determine what is occuring other than how you apply damage and allocations. Allocations being the key word here.

The only time it talks about allocating hits is under complex rules; it specifically differs and makes specific that only damage results applied to specific vehicles which have been singled out apply to that vehicle.

Also worth mentioning, if one interprets the allocation rules for squadrons to use the same rules as non-complex units then you run into a major problem with non-destroyed results.

Non-complex units do not permit the owning player to allocate wounds, only to choose which models are removed as casualties. This leaves a gap where there is no way to allocate damage results which don't result in casualties (destroyed vehicles) because the rules for non-complex units are not written to accommodate these situations (as willydstyle already touched on).

End result: follow the example on page 64 for all vehicle squadrons. There is no alternative because there is no way to allocate glancing/penetrating hits unless you follow the rules for complex units.

The normal rules have nothing to do with allocating wounds its just about armour saves ; when it discusses allocation it refers to Complex Units.

By the logic some are following I can do the following. 2 models in the unit 3 pens and 2 glances. I can put all 2 pens and 2 glances on one and 1 glance on the other.


There is no example to allocation except under complex units. Normal Units only talks about making all the armour saves with one roll.

Its not complicated its pretty simple ; Part A says see Part B , Part B says see Part C, where part C is complex unit rules.

If something tells you to see something else in reference to something then you do that. That is following the rules.

I'd just allocate anj roll them one by one. If a tank is destroyed then you can't allocate any more to them