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Can embarked passengers fire (from the fire points) of a transport vehicle that is performing a Ram?

Ramming vehicles must move at the maximum possible speed.
Ramming vehicles cannot shoot.
Passengers can't fire if the vehicle travels at cruising speed.

If the ramming vehicle stops before moving more than 6 inches (say, it hits a vehicle and fails to get a Vehicle - Destroyed result or gets stuck in difficult terrain, etc.), can the embarked passengers fire?

I'm inclined to say No, since the 'declared' movement had to be it's max speed (cruising speed), which would prevent its passengers from normally firing. However, the movement rules don't cover a 'declared' speed, they just address how far the actual model moved. In which case, the vehicle is considered to have moved at combat speed (since it was less than 6 inches), although if it hadn't been stopped, it would have moved at cruising speed.

No they cannot fire if the vehicle moves more than combat Speed. If the tank moved less than that and is stopped by the Ram, then yes they can fire so long as the Ramming Vehicle was not Shaken or Stunned. IMO.

Not got the rulebooks to hand so forgive me if I made a booboo :(

Here's a consideration if the answer is: Yes, they may fire.

By the INAT FAQ, friendly models stop Ram moves.
There's an enemy vehicle 2 inches in front of your Ramming vehicle.
Move a friendly model 5.9 inches in front of Ramming vehicle.
Ram away. Either you stop at the Rammed vehicle because you failed to destroy it. Or you stop at the friendly unit. Either way, you move less than 6 inches, and passengers can fire from the transport.

But the ramming rules state "... the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of." Reading this strictly says the tank is considered to be moving at cruising speed (or faster) when it is declared as ramming.

dietrich wrote:
I'm inclined to say No, since the 'declared' movement had to be it's max speed (cruising speed), which would prevent its passengers from normally firing. However, the movement rules don't cover a 'declared' speed, they just address how far the actual model moved. In which case, the vehicle is considered to have moved at combat speed (since it was less than 6 inches), although if it hadn't been stopped, it would have moved at cruising speed.

+

dietrich wrote:
Here's a consideration if the answer is: Yes, they may fire.

By the INAT FAQ, friendly models stop Ram moves.
There's an enemy vehicle 2 inches in front of your Ramming vehicle. Move a friendly model 5.9 inches in front of Ramming vehicle.
Ram away. Either you stop at the Rammed vehicle because you failed to destroy it. Or you stop at the friendly unit. Either way, you move less than 6 inches, and passengers can fire from the transport.

If the ramming rules stated that you move as per the regular movement rules, I would agree with you. However, ramming is an exception to the normal movement rules and would supersede them.

Ian1138 wrote:But the ramming rules state "... the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of." Reading this strictly says the tank is considered to be moving at cruising speed (or faster) when it is declared as ramming.

I'm inclined to go with that view, and I think that RAI. However, in the Movement section for Vehicles, it says that if the model moves between 6 and 12 inches, it's moving at Cruising Speed. So, if the model only moves 5 inches (because it doesn't destroy a vehicle, encounters friendly models, gets stuck in difficult terrain), according to the movement section, it's at Combat Speed. It would still satisfy the basic 'move at highest possible speed' - it moved as far as it possibly could.

Again, I think the RAI is that embarked passengers can't fire because the vehicle is at Cruising Speed, even if it doesn't move at least 6 inches.

But, by RAW, it seems like you:
1. Move model
2. Measure distance moved
3. Determine if it's at Combat Speed or Cruising Speed

But, as far as I know, there is no rule that says, "if the vehicle can't fire for any reason, embarked passengers can't either," which would resolve the issue. There's a specific rule for Shaken and Stunned on embarked passengers, but that's all that I can find.

Again, it seems like GW did about 90% of the rules for Ramming (as they often do). The basic idea is there. The basic rules are there, but there's a number of "if this, then what happens?" that can come from it. And GW defends this as, "we can't make the rules all inclusive to cover every possible situation." To which I respond, "That's true, but you can figure out some of the possible common issues and incorporate them."

dietrich wrote:Here's a consideration if the answer is: Yes, they may fire.

By the INAT FAQ, friendly models stop Ram moves.
There's an enemy vehicle 2 inches in front of your Ramming vehicle.
Move a friendly model 5.9 inches in front of Ramming vehicle.
Ram away. Either you stop at the Rammed vehicle because you failed to destroy it. Or you stop at the friendly unit. Either way, you move less than 6 inches, and passengers can fire from the transport.

You can't Tank Shock (or Ram) if there's friendly models in the way. Even though he's on the other side of the vehicle you're Ramming, he's still in the way. You don't suddenly pull up short, you instead can not Ram at all.

Ian1138 wrote:But the ramming rules state "... the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of." Reading this strictly says the tank is considered to be moving at cruising speed (or faster) when it is declared as ramming.

Reading it strictly means that you measure the actual distance moved to figure out at what speed it moved. If a non-fast tank moved less then 6" because of a variety of factors, then it would have moved at combat speed and passengers would be able to fire.

All the ramming rules tell us is that you must try and move the ramming vehicle as far as possible. Page 57 (vehicles and movement) tell us how to determine the speed of the vehicle - something that the ramming rules do not tell us. Page 66 (Transport Vehicles) tells us that if the vehicle moved at cruising speed the passengers may not fire.

If you fail to "destroy-explodes!" a rammed vehicle and your ram move was less then 6" (for a non-fast tank) then you only moved at combat speed based on page 57.

No. It does not say figure out the vehicle's rate of movement by measuring. It says that the vehicle moves at the highest speed it's capable of and that will never be combat speed.

How do we determine the speed a vehicle moved at? Page 57. The ramming section never ever says that you are moving at faster then combat speed. It only says you must move at the highest speed possible.

If a ramming vehicle is stopped before moving greater then 6" it has moved at the highest speed possible, which according to page 57 is only combat speed.

The movement section doesn't say, "Declare the speed you want to move, then move the model." Instead, it is 'move the model, then determine the speed.' Now, everyone I know basically plays as: determine speed you want, move the model that far.

Again, by RAI, the vehicle is moving at Crusing Speed or Flat Out (if fast). Which, would prevent passengers from shooting.

But, I haven't found a clear RAW, "under no circumstances can passengers fire if the vehicle Rams".

Ghaz wrote:No. It does not say figure out the vehicle's rate of movement by measuring. It says that the vehicle moves at the highest speed it's capable of and that will never be combat speed.

But if it never gets to move at Cruising speed because it was stopped by ramming, how can it count as moving cruising speed?

And just so you know, there is One tank that can Ram but never move at Cruising speed, the Good Ol' Monolith Or are you suggesting Monoliths cannot ram because they can never move faster than Combat Speed?

dietrich wrote:The movement section doesn't say, "Declare the speed you want to move, then move the model." Instead, it is 'move the model, then determine the speed.' Now, everyone I know basically plays as: determine speed you want, move the model that far.

Again, by RAI, the vehicle is moving at Crusing Speed or Flat Out (if fast). Which, would prevent passengers from shooting.

But, I haven't found a clear RAW, "under no circumstances can passengers fire if the vehicle Rams".

You haven't found it because there isn't any RAW that says that. Do I think the situation is likely to ever occur that a Ramming move will be less then 6"? No. About the only possible scenario I can see it even happening in is if the vehicles are exactly 6" apart, the rammer is AR14 and the rammie is being hit on armour 10 and the ramming player is desperate to kill it (you'd get a S7 hit I believe vs Ar10 is which doable, but could very well result in a damage roll of less then explodes!). I doubt GW clarified it much as they assumed that most rams would be of greater then 6" to maximize the S of the ram. But we end up with a situation where the ramming tank could move 6" or less before being stopped. An oddity which happens very rarely.

dietrich wrote:But, by RAW, it seems like you:
1. Move model
2. Measure distance moved
3. Determine if it's at Combat Speed or Cruising Speed

budro wrote:All the ramming rules tell us is that you must try and move the ramming vehicle as far as possible.

RAW the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of. (emphasis mine) Not "resolve the ram then figure distance" and certainly none of this "try" business. So unless my tank can move it's full 12" (or 18" (or 24")) and stop in front of a rammed vehicle that didn't explode, I can only see one meaning for this phrase; my tank is moving at cruising speed (or flat out) regardless of the actual distance moved. (this argument hasn't devolved into a "NO U" match, please don't let it go there)

Unfortunately, a monolith can't fire after it rams because ramming says the vehicle may not shoot.

Ian1138 wrote:

dietrich wrote:But, by RAW, it seems like you:
1. Move model
2. Measure distance moved
3. Determine if it's at Combat Speed or Cruising Speed

budro wrote:All the ramming rules tell us is that you must try and move the ramming vehicle as far as possible.

RAW the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of. (emphasis mine) Not "resolve the ram then figure distance" and certainly none of this "try" business. So unless my tank can move it's full 12" (or 18" (or 24")) and stop in front of a rammed vehicle that didn't explode, I can only see one meaning for this phrase; my tank is moving at cruising speed (or flat out) regardless of the actual distance moved. (this argument hasn't devolved into a "NO U" match, please don't let it go there)

Unfortunately, a monolith can't fire after it rams because ramming says the vehicle may not shoot.

Now that I have a chance to ponder over my rulebook, I'm not sure how this will work.

GW need to hire lawyers to write their rules

For the, "it's unlikely to happen", yes, but here's the situation: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240837.page

It just seems -odd- that it was better for the IG player to NOT destroy the Hammerhead on the Ram, since if he had, he would have kept moving, and then the Vets inside couldn't have fired. (And, we've determined that the Chimera shooting was wrong). Yes, this is an extreme example, but it really did happen.

Ramming vehicles have to move at their max possible speed. But, you determine the speed moved based on distance moved. Again, it doesn't say, "Declare the Speed you're moving, then move." Which would mean all ramming vehicles (except the monolith) would move at Cruising or Flat Out, regardless of the distance moved. But instead, the movement rules are based on how far the model actually moves.

What happens if a vehicle moves 2 inches and is Immoblized in difficult terrain? Does it count as moving at Combat Speed, even if you really wanted to move it at Cruising Speed? So, now it can fire, where if you hadn't rolled a '1', you couldn't?

Should the INAT FAQ clarify that you 'declare speed band (Combat, Cruising, Flat Out), then move, then apply all results?'. Which seems to be RAI, but I'm not finding it RAW.

Ian1138: please provide a page number or quote from the 40K rulebook which tells us that ramming is always at cruising speed or flat out regardless of distance moved.

The ONLY place in the 40K rulebook which tells us how to determine the speed is on page 57 - which only details measuring AFTER you have completed your move. There is no "declare your speed" section of the vehicles moving. The speed of the vehicle is entirely dependent on the actual distance moved.

All this talk about Ramming raised another point about the new Guard Codex. The "Lumbering Behemoth"-rule of the Russes makes you roll for the maximum movement. This can lead to a situation where you come critically short of the necessary distance to connect to your target. "Tank"+AV14 is nice and all that but random distance can really ruin your ramming attempts .

Well, considering a Russ Ramming at 7" is Strength 4+1+2=7, its good against light vehicles at least. And you have a Bigass Gun on the top, use that instead

Gwar! wrote:Well, considering a Russ Ramming at 7" is Strength 4+1+2=7, its good against light vehicles at least. And you have a Bigass Gun on the top, use that instead

Sure, except in a situation where your own troops are "danger close" as the saying goes. Option A) shoot the Eldar tank but take the very real chance of killing my own veterans with a ( minor ) scatter or B) try to ram the space hippies.

Well you should have bought the Lascannon then

Gwar! wrote:Well you should have bought the Lascannon then

Thats what the Vendettas were for. Too bad the hippies had already neutralized them .

Irritated Response: I see some people can't be bothered to consider the rules before posting. If you had, and read the "I can only see one meaning for this phrase..." part of my last post, it would be obvious that my statement was an interpretation based on the rules for ramming.

Surprised Response: I find it strange that budro does not already have the rulebook open to the page on ramming.

Addendum: I also find the last few posts derailing to a proper rules discussion.

Speculation: It is possible that my last post was largely ignored so argumentative meatbags could keep posting in hopes of making the solution I presented appear less valid.

And we care because? The tank moves at the highest speed it is capable of. If it moved 5" because it was stopped by the ram, it was only capable of moving 5", which is Combat Speed.

Mkay?

Ian1138 wrote:Addendum: I also find the last few posts derailing to a proper rules discussion.

Duly noted and I offer an appropriate apology. No hard feelings I hope .

I personally agree with your interpretation because it is the simplest application of the rules, in terms of game play. No shenanigans result from this interpretation.

Player 1: "OK--this transport is ramming."
Player 2: "Fine..."
Player 1: "My vehicle will have been considered to move at Cruising Speed, both for purposes of shooting and for purposes of being hit in close combat."
Player 2: "Works for me. That's how the ram rules should play."

Just my opinion...

Ian1138 wrote:Irritated Response: I see some people can't be bothered to consider the rules before posting. If you had, and read the "I can only see one meaning for this phrase..." part of my last post, it would be obvious that my statement was an interpretation based on the rules for ramming.

Assumption: this sentence has nothing to do with my post.

Ian1138 wrote:Surprised Response: I find it strange that budro does not already have the rulebook open to the page on ramming.

Why would you assume that I don't have the rulebook open to not only the ramming section but also the vehicle movement section and the transport section? Of course I have the rulebook open, we are after all discussing what the rules mean. Shame on me for thinking that people who would post in a forum about the rules would want to look at the rulebook. I asked for a reference because it is highly likely given GW's penchant for putting rules relating to stuff all over the place and not in one section.

Ian1138 wrote:Speculation: It is possible that my last post was largely ignored so argumentative meatbags could keep posting in hopes of making the solution I presented appear less valid.

I would hope that you don't mean I'm an argumentative meatbag. Personally I consider myself a thoughtful if somewhat ego-inflated meatbag.

stormtitan wrote:I personally agree with your interpretation because it is the simplest application of the rules, in terms of game play. No shenanigans result from this interpretation.

Player 1: "OK--this transport is ramming."
Player 2: "Fine..."
Player 1: "My vehicle will have been considered to move at Cruising Speed, both for purposes of shooting and for purposes of being hit in close combat."
Player 2: "Works for me. That's how the ram rules should play."

Just my opinion...

That's fine if you want to play that way, but I don't really care unless you're my opponent. YMDC is usually not about how you choose to play, but what do the rules say. And the rules for ramming never say that you are considered to be moving at cruising speed. In fact if you are playing eldar you could very well be moving faster then cruising speed. The only rules which specify how to classify the speed of your vehicle detail that it is after movement is complete and has no bearing on anything else.

Ghaz wrote:You can't Tank Shock (or Ram) if there's friendly models in the way. Even though he's on the other side of the vehicle you're Ramming, he's still in the way. You don't suddenly pull up short, you instead can not Ram at all.

Reading through tank shock and ram, I see this now. But, From INAT FAQ V2.2,

RB.69B.03 – Q: A ramming vehicle has to move the “highest speed it is capable of”, what if this move will take the vehicle into a friendly unit, off the table or into difficult/impassable terrain?
A: A ramming vehicle that moves through difficult terrain will have to take a dangerous terrain test as normal. The ramming move ends when the vehicle moves into a friendly unit, impassable terrain or reaches the table edge [clarification].

Ramming is a version of Tank Shock. Tank Shocking specifically prohibits moving through a friendly unit. Shouldn't this be a [Rules Change] then?

Sounds like you could block Rams by keeping your vehicle between the Rammer and another enemy unit (which, potentially could move out of the way first) and/or a melee combat.

dietrich wrote:Ramming is a version of Tank Shock. Tank Shocking specifically prohibits moving through a friendly unit. Shouldn't this be a [Rules Change] then?

Thats not the half of it, I pointed out at least one other occurrence of a Rules change labelled as a Clarification but no one seems to care really.

That is indeed a clarification.

Friendly models are impassable terrain. Is a tank allowed to move through impassable terrain?

In the Tank heading, before the mention of Tank Shock or Ramming:

Tanks follow the normal rules for vehicles, with the
additions and exceptions given below.

No rules changes here.

Ghaz wrote:No. It does not say figure out the vehicle's rate of movement by measuring. It says that the vehicle moves at the highest speed it's capable of and that will never be combat speed.

Quoted for truth.

Vehicles have a maximum speed of Cruising Speed, allowing them to move 12" normally, 18" on a road. Fast vehicles have a maximum speed of Flat Out, moving 18" normally, 24" on a road. Fast Skimmers have a maximum speed of Flat Out (24" normal/road).

If a vehicle is moving at its maximum speed, then it will move either Cruising Speed, or Flat Out. The exception, I believe, is the Monolith, which is limited to Cruising Speed. Passengers cannot fire when moving at Cruising Speed or Flat Out, and Monoliths do not have passengers.