Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Had an interesting question come up last night in a game... thought I'd post it on here and see what the consensus is.

Q: A unit is Deep Striking in from reserves and coming in near an icon/homer. Do you...


1) Measure 6 inches from the Icon to make sure you don't scatter, then place your Deep Striking model?

2) Place your deep striking model, THEN measure to see if you're within 6". If you're out, you roll scatter, if you're in, continue placing troops?


Are you allowed to measure where you want to DS into prior to placing the model? Note I'm specifically talking about Daemons and Marine Terminators and other "Deep Striking" stuff. Don't mention CSM Daemons as they "deploy" from the icon and essentially just treat it like getting out of a vehicle...

Page 3 of the Rule book says you don't premeasure for ANYTHING unless the rules explicitly allow you to. In the case of at least Teleport Homers and Codex Daemon Icons it mentions nothing about measuring...


I've pretty much always played and seen it played as option one... but I think that's because in previous editions Deep Striking was relatively rare compared to today's climate. I'm really thinking it's Option two though now that I've thought about it...

1) The rules on page 3 are not about "pre-measure", but they are about measuring.

2) The rules for teleport homers/locator beacons say "...and chooses to do so within 6"..."

3) So the question you need to ask yourself is how do use a teleport homer/locator beacon if you can not measure to the 6".

Basically, what I am trying to say here is: there is no such rule for or against "pre-measure". that term is a gamer's term to denote a situation where someone who measures when a measurement is not allowed or is uncalled for (like measuring move and assault during the movement phase, or measures the distance between units before moving or declaring shooting with them, and such...).

But, we are allowed to measure per page 3 when a rule tells us that one may be required (unless you are really good at judging distances). And in this case, the devices in question do not function unless a certain unit is within 6" of them...so a measurement is required.

Remember, there is no real such thing as a "pre-measure". There is only if you are allowed to measure or not. And since a distance is required for an item to be used then the only way to be sure we use that item is to measure from it. Basically a rule would have to spell out that you have to place the model down first AND then measure for the situation you are talking about to take place.

I hope this helps and happy gaming

I hope I was not sounding condescending (I trully wasn't) I just wanted to help dis spell the "pre-measure" myth.

Pre measure is a term, and I get that... but it also can be taken in context of "measuring out of order"... for instance you're allowed to measure for assault ranges... you're just not allowed to do it BEFORE declaring assault... or in the shooting phase to be even more extreme...

What I mean by "pre measure" is that if you're supposed to place the model THEN see if you're within 6" and you see if you're within 6 THEN place the model you're doing it out of order and thus it's pre measuring... but that's a side topic IMO...

The rules for Deep Strike say you place the model, then you roll for scatter...

The rules for Icons and Homers say you don't scatter if you're within 6"... so by that logic I think you have to place the model, THEN measure and if you're out of six you're a really bad guestimator and you roll scatter...

It's similar to shooting... you don't measure, then declare shooting... you declare, then measure... I think DS is the same way... declare a point, THEN measure...

That's just it...nothing tells us that. And the device has a range...So, we have to measure to make use of that range. Again, don't worry about "measuring out of order". The only "order to measurements" is the ones you find in the appropriate shoot/assault sections that list a 'generalized' list of events like the ones described on pages 15 and 33.

Other than that, we measure when we 'need' to measure. And I mean 'need' as when we 'have to' measure a certain specific distance like those to banners, commanders, and special devices...other than that there are not real 'order of events' to measurements except for the specific ones describing the shooting and assault phase as listed above.

I don't know if you are fairly new at gaming (less than 4 years or so), but this is a term that is usually shoved down the throats of new players, and they often times are a little confused on the 'why' of the measurement and are too concerned with the 'how'.

Again, you are allowed to measure whenever a specific distance is called upon for you to have to make. Which is what page 3 is all about. We are measuring per page 3 because a rule is telling us that a certain distance is required, and the only way to be sure, is to measure.

EDIT: This is what I mean by a 'need' to measure, take the locator beacon rule as an example, here is an exert from it: "...and chooses to do so within 6"..."

How can we 'choose' to do so at any distance if we can not find out if we are in the distance in the first place? Basically, it is not a choose at that point but a guess. We can then 'choose' to use the device by placing our models within 6" of the item, but the only way to be sure is to measure....Do you understand what I mean?

I'm not hung up on "pre measureing" and I'm not new...

Again, you are allowed to measure whenever a specific distance is called upon for you to have to make. Which is what page 3 is all about. We are measuring per page 3 because a rule is telling us that a certain distance is required, and the only way to be sure, is to measure.

This is the part I'm questioning... I *KNOW* you have to measure, I'm just asking if you place the model THEN measure or do you get to measure then place the model...

Where in the rule book does it say I get to measure then place... that's all I'm looking for... Deep Strike is a step process....

Step One: Place the Model
Step Two: Roll Scatter

Icons/Homers let you ignore scatter if within 6".... so do you do Step ONe THEN measure, or do you just measure then do Step one?

Again, I've always played it as measure then place, but looking at it RAW it doesn't seem to occur that way....

Other than that, we measure when we 'need' to measure. And I mean 'need' as when we 'have to' measure a certain specific...

So... when do you need to measure?

...nevermind than, sorry I could not help you, someone else please.

I can only add this if you missed my edit in the previous post:

EDIT: This is what I mean by a 'need' to measure, take the locator beacon rule as an example, here is an exert from it: "...and chooses to do so within 6"..."

How can we 'choose' to do so at any distance if we can not find out if we are in the distance in the first place? Basically, it is not a choose at that point but a guess. We can then 'choose' to use the device by placing our models within 6" of the item, but the only way to be sure is to measure....Do you understand what I mean?

The way I see it, you place the first model, then measure to see if you are in range. If you are, you don't scatter, if you are not, then you scatter.

Gwar! wrote:The way I see it, you place the first model, then measure to see if you are in range. If you are, you don't scatter, if you are not, then you scatter.

I disagree with the way you see it Gwar (want to add that to your sig? ). I do agree with Padixon though, and for the reasons he gave.

OP- that's just my $.02 - which is no better/worse than anyone else's (no matter how many people are quoted in a sig...)

Gwar! wrote:The way I see it, you place the first model, then measure to see if you are in range. If you are, you don't scatter, if you are not, then you scatter.

lol, gwar, you are no help...How is it a 'choice' to place a model within 6" of a locator beacon, if it really is a 'guess'. (see the quote from above [previous post] as reference). If you choose to place a model within 6"...lol

I can see this in a game environment

Player 1: I will try to choose to be within 6"
Player 1: *Places model then measures*...darnit...7"....well I guess I am not very good at choosing am I.

Player 2: Face meets palm and head shakes....

Well, thats exactly what I said. You cannot measure before you place the model, you place the model and then measure.

First off, at least in one codex (Codex Chaos Daemons) the word CHOOSE is not in the Icon rules. It just says when you deepstrike within 6 inches of an icon, you don't scatter.


That wording to me, implies that you don't measure, it doesnt leave you any choice.



I will need to investigate further, but that is the wording in the Daemon codex.



Clay

*Grabs a Dos Equis* It never even crossed my mind that you'd have to place then measure.

I think this could be an interesting 'how do you really play it' poll? Does this need to be added to the INAT FAQ for next year?

Primarch wrote:First off, at least in one codex (Codex Chaos Daemons) the word CHOOSE is not in the Icon rules. It just says when you deepstrike within 6 inches of an icon, you don't scatter.


That wording to me, implies that you don't measure, it doesnt leave you any choice.



I will need to investigate further, but that is the wording in the Daemon codex.



Clay

argh...If you guys want to get philosophical with a book written by gamers like you and me...than I guess that is the route we have to take.

1) The rules for deepstrike found on page 95 are used when *units* arrive from reserve by means of the deepstrike special rule

2) The rules for deepsstrike tell us to place *one* model from the unit to show the position you would like them **to arrive**.

3) The rules then tell us to roll the scatter dice , if you roll a hit, the *model* stays, if you roll a scatter the *model* moves 2D6 inches in the direction of the arrow.

4) Once your final position is determined, *then* place models in a circle around the first model....

5) "Models arriving via deepstrike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain"


As you can see, you are not deepstriking *one model* but a unit...therefore you are only said to be deepstruck when *all* models have been placed, and that can only happen after you rolled the scatter dice

Because if the first (positional model) counts as 'deepstriked' at that point and time, he would 'have to' immediately make a dangerous terrain test if in difficult terrain....but the truth is the deepstriking rules are not completed until after you finish the scatter roll and place models. Then after deepstriked then roll for dangerous terrain tests as required.

My point is the first model is not the 'deepstriked model' but a position marker for the deepstriking unit. If you 'deepstrike' within 6" of a Icon then you don't scatter. That means *In my eyes, obviously there is no changing minds in this forum* that you measure to make sure you can follow this rule then place models to fulfill the rules criteria.

Again, all these books are written by just gamers with no real degrees or titles of any kind. They write just like you and me. You play the rules how you read them is the moral of the story. If you feel you need to guess place them,,,go for it.

So, if you don't check for the 'within 6 inches' until the whole unit is down, you can pick up an extra couple inches, if the unit consists of more than one model. For example, Crushers on 60mm base. Say you have 4 of them. If the first one is 9 inches away from the Icon, by the time you build a ring around him, you'll have a guy within 6 inches (60mm + 30mm, radius of base is about 3.5 inches).

Ok, Padixon, what does ANY of what you posted have to do with when you measure? We understand that the initial model you place is just a marker (unless of course you really are deep striking one poor lonely soul)... Got that, everyone knows it.

You stepped through the Deep Strike process, very accurately I must say, but you didn't really address the issue... or I missed it somewhere between the rules and the "written by gamers" line...

I would say that by placing a model on the target, and starting the process, you are indeed in the middle of a deep strike. If in fact your deep strike process is found to be within 6 inches of an icon/locator beacon, then you do not proceed on to the scatter part.

By your logic, I could deepstrike a 10 man unit of Terminators, and only the innermost edge of the squad would have to graze the 6 inch bubble of the beacon? I might be wrong about this, but most people really use the TARGET point of the deepstrike to determine if you are within 6 inches.


Clay

dietrich wrote:So, if you don't check for the 'within 6 inches' until the whole unit is down, you can pick up an extra couple inches, if the unit consists of more than one model. For example, Crushers on 60mm base. Say you have 4 of them. If the first one is 9 inches away from the Icon, by the time you build a ring around him, you'll have a guy within 6 inches (60mm + 30mm, radius of base is about 3.5 inches).

The unit needs to be within 6" (remember the 'unit' deepstrikes) and just like when measuring for a unit to be within 3" of an objective, only one model of that unit needs to be within it for the whole 'unit' to count as scoring that objective.

While on the other hand, rules for disembarking units from vehicles tells us that the 'models' must be within 2" of an exit hatch.

Yes you can absolutely gain some inches, people do this all the time, as long as the unit is within 6" of the item in question...most people play it by measuring from the 'positional model' to 'make sure' they are in range because you still have to make a circle with models in base to base.

Primarch wrote:I would say that by placing a model on the target, and starting the process, you are indeed in the middle of a deep strike. If in fact your deep strike process is found to be within 6 inches of an icon/locator beacon, then you do not proceed on to the scatter part.

By your logic, I could deepstrike a 10 man unit of Terminators, and only the innermost edge of the squad would have to graze the 6 inch bubble of the beacon? I might be wrong about this, but most people really use the TARGET point of the deepstrike to determine if you are within 6 inches.


Clay

Thats right you could, if you are real good at judging distances. You still have to make a circle starting with the first model. If you goof it up, then you are scattering.

So, if you don't check for the 'within 6 inches' until the whole unit is down, you can pick up an extra couple inches, if the unit consists of more than one model. For example, Crushers on 60mm base. Say you have 4 of them. If the first one is 9 inches away from the Icon, by the time you build a ring around him, you'll have a guy within 6 inches (60mm + 30mm, radius of base is about 3.5 inches).

Hah Dietrich I wasn't going to bring that up because yeah, that's the obvious issue behind having to deploy them all and THEN roll Scatter.... Crushers would get a farking huge advantage!

Glad you pointed it out.

padixon,

Your quote above is what really makes me believe that you CANNOT measure it beforehand. I think that's a bit too gamey, and where I play, NOONE does this. Doesnt mean we are right however.



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thats right you could, if you are real good at judging distances. You still have to make a circle starting with the first model. If you goof it up, then you are scattering.

Umm, are you reading your own posts? You are the one arguing about being able to pre-measure the deep strike. So how could you goof it up if you can pre-measure all of this? By your logic, I can make the circle of Crushers, then push them out as far as possible to gain all the movement I can squeeze out of it, and still be legal, all because I can pre-measure it all I want.


You need to pick a side of the argument, and stay on it.



Clay

That's what I mean, people take these rules discussions about RAW to a philosophical level. And there is no need for it.

These books are written by idiots like you and me, with no special talent of any kind besides an active imagination.

These rules are not perfect, and following a non-perfect rule to the letter leads to a not so perfect and confusing results.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Primarch wrote:padixon,

Your quote above is what really makes me believe that you CANNOT measure it beforehand. I think that's a bit too gamey, and where I play, NOONE does this. Doesnt mean we are right however.



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thats right you could, if you are real good at judging distances. You still have to make a circle starting with the first model. If you goof it up, then you are scattering.

Umm, are you reading your own posts? You are the one arguing about being able to pre-measure the deep strike. So how could you goof it up if you can pre-measure all of this? By your logic, I can make the circle of Crushers, then push them out as far as possible to gain all the movement I can squeeze out of it, and still be legal, all because I can pre-measure it all I want.


You need to pick a side of the argument, and stay on it.



Clay

logically once you place all your models, the deepstrike is done, so if you are not within the 6", then too bad, you failed to utilize the icon or whatever. You can push them out far, but once you start your circle, and find that you are not within 6", then you decided not to use the icon.

These books are written by idiots like you and me

Obviously *I* did not write these rules as then Orks would be 2 pts each!

So back to the question at hand...

I'm leaning more towards the placing THEN measuring camp the more I read and no one's exactly blowing me out of the water with counter arguments...

Which brings up another question... Since Gwar! agrees with me, do I therefore get Sig Immunity from him?

Seriously. Go back to the start of the thread, the part where you say this;

As you can see, you are not deepstriking *one model* but a unit...therefore you are only said to be deepstruck when *all* models have been placed, and that can only happen after you rolled the scatter dice

Because if the first (positional model) counts as 'deepstriked' at that point and time, he would 'have to' immediately make a dangerous terrain test if in difficult terrain....but the truth is the deepstriking rules are not completed until after you finish the scatter roll and place models. Then after deepstriked then roll for dangerous terrain tests as required.

My point is the first model is not the 'deepstriked model' but a position marker for the deepstriking unit. If you 'deepstrike' within 6" of a Icon then you don't scatter. That means *In my eyes, obviously there is no changing minds in this forum* that you measure to make sure you can follow this rule then place models to fulfill the rules criteria.

By your own logic, the deepstrike isnt finished until, by using a pre-measure, I place all of my models.


Clay

padixon wrote:logically once you place all your models, the deepstrike is done, so if you are not within the 6", then too bad, you failed to utilize the icon or whatever. You can push them out far, but once you start your circle, and find that you are not within 6", then you decided not to use the icon.

you only place your models after you scatter. By your "logic" Icons and Homers dont work.

It is real fun to see how people read these rules, and yet even funnier to see how dakkaites claim how the rules are to be read, and turn around and play them the opposite way. Because everyone knows this is how it is played.

In every discussion, no matter how simple it is, there is always someone who argues against the grain (this one is a great example, along with that 2 powerfst one with Calgar)

Go ahead and play the way you want to dude. Your original post was in question, yet you really didn't have a question, your mind was made up long before you posted.

Play how you like, just don't be surprised when your opponent doesn't agree with you if you try to force your opponent to play it the way you read it.

Me personally...I will let you play that way all you want, but I will play it the way I feel the rules say to play it.

No offence, but you should be playing by what the rules say, not some made up version you THINK is how the rules play.

Gwar! wrote:No offence, but you should be playing by what the rules say, not some made up version you THINK is how the rules play.

You too

EDIT: you do realize what you said does go both ways, silly, often times when you point a finger, you have 3 more fingers pointing right back at you.

I wish you well in your gaming, and all the fun it deserves, I will wash my hands of this madness...

Padixon,


It's fine, get off your soap box, we all realize, you disagree with us philosophically. However, you aren't citing any rules to convince us. I personally have always pre-measured this, and only when this question came up, did I start to examine how it really is worded, and supposed to work.

Having said that, you aren't providing any basis for your argument. You just keep talking about philosophy, and how gamers wrote the rules, and blah blah blah.


This thread was created to see if we can figure out how it is meant to be played. So far, you haven't provided any evidence as to why you think you are right. You have talked in circles, and basically gotten your argument confused.

Does anyone have an productive counter arguments to the drop, then measure stance?


Clay

Does anyone have an productive counter arguments to the drop, then measure stance?

It looks like no one does... at least not so far... It would be interesting to get some of the INAT FAQ folks to weigh in on this one though...

so... shameless bump...

Imo you are useing an item that cost 15 points as far as marines go i dont see why you cant measure 6 then place after all targeters are only 1pt and it allows you to pre measure