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In a interesting turn of events, Conservative Host Hannity said he would agree to be water-boarded. After a month of pretending he never said a thing. Conservative radio host "Mancow" took up the mantle to show all the weak-willed "Democrat wussies" just how non-torture waterboarding is. Of course the results are pure HILARITY. Enjoy.
Yep lasted all of about 2.3 seconds. With the average time being 14 seconds. That tame event changed his tune real quick.
And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.
Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole
I think the guy is a right wing kook, but I'll give him credit for trying, and credit for being honest.
I was water boarded while in POW resistance training in the US Navy. I was pinned down, and I got three applications in quick succession. I didn't get to cry uncle to make it stop. I did try to tell the interrogators what they were asking to make it stop, but I was so addled I gave them false information. I probably would have quit if they had tried to water board me again. The people who have been water boarded call it torture.
Gobbla wrote:The people who have been water boarded call it torture.
People wouldn't be waterboarded in an attempt to extract information if it wasn't.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
2 - The hobbiest - The guy who likes the minis for what they are, loves playing with painted armies, using offical mini's in a friendly setting. Wants to play on boards with good terrain.
Devlin Mud is cheating.
More people have more rights now. Suck it.- Polonius
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Gobbla wrote:The people who have been water boarded call it torture.
People wouldn't be waterboarded in an attempt to extract information if it wasn't.
THe problem with torture is not that it never works. The problem with torture is that eventually you are going to be told exactly what you want to hear. Which is great so long as you or your superiors do not have paranoid tendencies. Once paranoia enters into the equation torture as an information gathering tool becomes worthless. This is because the torture victim (and even the most vile person being tortured is still a victim) will eventually sell you his grandmother in exchange for you not doing it again.
I've suffered through impacted wisdom teeth for three days waiting for a dentist appointment, I've been assaulted by an entire hive of fire ants and been stung by bees, and wasps and bitten by spiders. However, I think I would cooperate before dealing with that. I can't even hold my breath for more than 30 seconds. However, I still think that sleep deprivation and psychological means would still be more effective, because they work on the mind directly. There have been times when I've not been able to sleep for days on end that I did things without hesitation that people suggested who were just kidding.
warpcrafter wrote:I've suffered through impacted wisdom teeth for three days waiting for a dentist appointment, I've been assaulted by an entire hive of fire ants and been stung by bees, and wasps and bitten by spiders. However, I think I would cooperate before dealing with that. I can't even hold my breath for more than 30 seconds. However, I still think that sleep deprivation and psychological means would still be more effective, because they work on the mind directly. There have been times when I've not been able to sleep for days on end that I did things without hesitation that people suggested who were just kidding.
Just as a comparison, last year I slipped on a wet floor and caught my middle finger in an iron stairwell banister. I tore off the end of the finger, including the fingernail. I'll pit that pain against anybody else’s war story. And, I still say water boarding is torture.
warpcrafter wrote:I've suffered through impacted wisdom teeth for three days waiting for a dentist appointment, I've been assaulted by an entire hive of fire ants and been stung by bees, and wasps and bitten by spiders. However, I think I would cooperate before dealing with that. I can't even hold my breath for more than 30 seconds. However, I still think that sleep deprivation and psychological means would still be more effective, because they work on the mind directly. There have been times when I've not been able to sleep for days on end that I did things without hesitation that people suggested who were just kidding.
Just as a comparison, last year I slipped on a wet floor and caught my middle finger in an iron stairwell banister. I tore off the end of the finger, including the fingernail. I'll pit that pain against anybody else’s war story. And, I still say water boarding is torture.
The reliably silly Christopher Hitchens did the same thing in an article for (I think) Time magazine. He lasted a little longer than the radio guy, but not much and afterwards said it was definitely torture.
It's also worth remembering the radio guy, like Hitchens before him, had control over the situation. He could cry uncle at any point and afterwards return to a regular life. The actual victims of this don't get that level of control, so the experience is many times worse.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
There are still people out there that don't regard waterboarding as torture? Wow.
Fair play to this guy for at least putting his money where his mouth was and admitting he was wrong later, though I'll admit I do like seeing Radio motormouths being taken down a peg or 2!
"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!"
warpcrafter wrote:I've suffered through impacted wisdom teeth for three days waiting for a dentist appointment, I've been assaulted by an entire hive of fire ants and been stung by bees, and wasps and bitten by spiders. However, I think I would cooperate before dealing with that. I can't even hold my breath for more than 30 seconds. However, I still think that sleep deprivation and psychological means would still be more effective, because they work on the mind directly. There have been times when I've not been able to sleep for days on end that I did things without hesitation that people suggested who were just kidding.
Just as a comparison, last year I slipped on a wet floor and caught my middle finger in an iron stairwell banister. I tore off the end of the finger, including the fingernail. I'll pit that pain against anybody else’s war story. And, I still say water boarding is torture.
Being thrown bodily through a window and lacerating left arm down to the bone.
Having my Appendix rupture during the first paper of my History G.C.S.E.
And I fail to see the wisdom in Torture. How exactly do you verify any information or confession eventually extracted from the subject?
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Gobbla wrote: Just as a comparison, last year I slipped on a wet floor and caught my middle finger in an iron stairwell banister. I tore off the end of the finger, including the fingernail. I'll pit that pain against anybody else’s war story. And, I still say water boarding is torture.
That's nothing man. Once, I slipped over and my arms flew off, then I was savagely attacked by killer ferrets that ate my legs and tore off my head. The doctors made the ferrets puke up my legs so they could put me back together, and here I am, posting the horrible truths of my life in your thread.
/boast
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/24 10:55:33
People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made.
Gobbla wrote:
Just as a comparison, last year I slipped on a wet floor and caught my middle finger in an iron stairwell banister. I tore off the end of the finger, including the fingernail. I'll pit that pain against anybody else’s war story. And, I still say water boarding is torture.
That's nothing man. Once, I slipped over and my arms flew off, then I was savagely attacked by killer ferrets that ate my legs and tore off my head. The doctors made the ferrets puke up my legs so they could put me back together, and here I am, posting the horrible truths of my life in your thread.
/boast
Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah.
"And if we've learnt anything over the past 1000 mile retreat it's that Russian agriculture is in dire need of mechanisation!"
Stubbing your toe is horrible, isn't it? The pain just stays for ages and sometimes your toenails bend and make the toes bleed underneath, which looks and feels ghastly.
People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made.
warpcrafter wrote:I've suffered through impacted wisdom teeth for three days waiting for a dentist appointment, I've been assaulted by an entire hive of fire ants and been stung by bees, and wasps and bitten by spiders. However, I think I would cooperate before dealing with that. I can't even hold my breath for more than 30 seconds. However, I still think that sleep deprivation and psychological means would still be more effective, because they work on the mind directly. There have been times when I've not been able to sleep for days on end that I did things without hesitation that people suggested who were just kidding.
Just as a comparison, last year I slipped on a wet floor and caught my middle finger in an iron stairwell banister. I tore off the end of the finger, including the fingernail. I'll pit that pain against anybody else’s war story. And, I still say water boarding is torture.
Being thrown bodily through a window and lacerating left arm down to the bone.
Having my Appendix rupture during the first paper of my History G.C.S.E.
And I fail to see the wisdom in Torture. How exactly do you verify any information or confession eventually extracted from the subject?
The simplest way to verify the results of your torture are to torture anyone who the subject (or victim if you will) has given you information on. You may also try to verify some physical details, but the independent confirmation you receive from the people who were identified by the first person you tortured will be enough to justify what you did.
efarrer wrote:
The simplest way to verify the results of your torture are to torture anyone who the subject (or victim if you will) has given you information on. You may also try to verify some physical details, but the independent confirmation you receive from the people who were identified by the first person you tortured will be enough to justify what you did.
Unfortunately, it's just not that simple. CIA Director George Tenet told Congress that Iraq had provided al Qaeda with training in combat, bomb-making, and weapons of mass destruction. That information was based on a single source, the interrogation Ibn al-Shakh al Libi, who later recanted and whom we now know was tortured for that information.
There are simply better ways to get information. They have served the US Military and the US Criminal Justice system well for decades.
"And what is wrong with their life? What on earth is less reprehensible than the life of the Levovs?"
- American Pastoral, Philip Roth
Oh, Death was never enemy of ours!
We laughed at him, we leagued with him, old chum.
No soldier's paid to kick against His powers.
We laughed - knowing that better men would come,
And greater wars: when each proud fighter brags
He wars on Death, for lives; not men, for flags.
efarrer wrote:
The simplest way to verify the results of your torture are to torture anyone who the subject (or victim if you will) has given you information on. You may also try to verify some physical details, but the independent confirmation you receive from the people who were identified by the first person you tortured will be enough to justify what you did.
Unfortunately, it's just not that simple. CIA Director George Tenet told Congress that Iraq had provided al Qaeda with training in combat, bomb-making, and weapons of mass destruction. That information was based on a single source, the interrogation Ibn al-Shakh al Libi, who later recanted and whom we now know was tortured for that information.
There are simply better ways to get information. They have served the US Military and the US Criminal Justice system well for decades.
I feel the need to note that I didn't think it was a good way to get information, just a simple way to verify you got the correct results from the earlier interrogation. Personally I have no respect for torture, because if you have an objective you will eventually achieve your objective.
Grab random guy off street.
Ask did you blow up the statue of liberty? Who helped?
He says no.
5 minutes torture
Ask did you blow up the statue of liberty? Who helped?
repeat torture until he confesses and gives you a list of accomplices
repeat process with his buddies.
Even if the statue is still standing they will all eventually cave. Why? Because torture works, but only insofar as giving you what you want to hear. Sometimes you might get lucky, but probably not. That's why we don't use torture to get suspected criminals to confess. Torture will eventually make anyone who it does not kill say what you want to hear.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:And I fail to see the wisdom in Torture. How exactly do you verify any information or confession eventually extracted from the subject?
You confirm the information the same way as you would any information provided by a source. That is, if he says ‘the bad guys are over there’ you go there and find out. If he says ‘it was Kaiser Soze who supplied the explosives’ then you go about investigating and building a case against Kaiser Soze. In that sense it really isn’t any different to information provided by informants in exchange for lighter sentences, the informant is motivated to tell government what government wants to hear, so independent confirmation of all information is vital.
Of course, that’s assuming torture is used as an information gathering tool, most often it is used to gain a confession.
Thing is, even if you ignore the fact that you’re deliberating causing suffering to a human being, torture has a terrible effect on the organisation that commits it. The UK flirted with torture in its operations against the IRA, and one comment I remember was that it took about 24 hours to go from government okaying torture in extreme circumstances, to torture becoming a standard method used to gain information, to torture being used for the sake of torturing people. Consider the change in culture and discipline when your operatives are now torturing people or capturing people to have them arrested by others. In the UK it wasn’t long before other information gathering methods that were more difficult (but more effective) began to be used less and less.
And ultimately, torture has no record of success. No plots have been spoiled at the last second in the ticking bomb scenario so often suggested by supporters of torture.
Ultimately the appeal of torture doesn’t come from a list of situations where torture was used successfully, or even a list of situations where torture could have been used to stop something terrible happening. No, the appeal of torture comes from the strongman fantasy, that the only reason scary people have the power to hurt us is because we aren’t willing to be as cruel as them. That if only we chose to be as cruel as we (apparently) had to be, then we’d be safe. But the real world doesn’t work like that, the willingness to be as nasty as necessarily is no substitute for skill and adaptability. And unfortunately that means we’ll never be completely safe, because we’ll never know if our intelligence agencies are skilled enough at any given point in time to stop all possible attacks. But that’s the world we live in, and jumping into fantasies of torture securing vital information is no solution.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Lay him down, legs elevated, strap down arms, legs, and torso
Place rag, rolled, into mouth
Place unfolded rag over inmate's face
Slightly pinch nose
Slowly poor water over the mouth rag just to soak it, have another interrogator quickly splash water on inmate's chest and another on the head. Release the nose for roughly 5 seconds, then pinch. Off and on. Unpinching is optional.
The trick is to create moisture in the lungs by inhaling through the mouth with the wet rag, thus causing the sensation of drowning without harming him physically.
Do this for 15 minutes. Rest for 15 minutes, then proceed again for 15 minutes. After 3 15 minute sessions, it becomes 30 minutes on, 15 minutes off. I have never seen someone go longer than 2 sessions. Most people don't last 20 seconds.
This is very slow, which causes absolute terror in the inmate. It takes about 20 seconds before the body flails around. At 25 the inmate will confess to aiding terrorists. At 30 he will confess to killing Christ.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2009/05/25 08:28:58
PanamaG wrote:The flaw in your logic is "grab random guy off street."
If he isn't random then the extraction of a confession is irrelevant. You're already identified and apprehended the guy, so the process of further information gathering can be done at relative leisure. If the intent is to generate additional leads pertaining to a larger organization, then you would have to start with a fairly significant base of information anyway as you can't ask open ended questions during aggressive interrogation. Not if you want useful information anyway.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
PanamaG wrote:The flaw in your logic is "grab random guy off street."
Since I was point out in my scenario that you could create a cell of admitted terrorists through the use of torture who had confessed to a major attack on a random target which did not happen (not in reality or the scenario) I don't see how the random nature of the victim is a flaw in the reality. It's the same way that witches confessed.
The randomness of the victim is actually required in this case to demonstrate my point. You don't need the subject of the torture to be real if your objective is to find a terrorist, you just need to want to get a result. Then it becomes behavioral psychology at it's simplest. If you don't like the result hurt the person and ask the question again. Eventually they give you the answer that you want to hear, even if it's not true (hence the question in my example about blowing up a structure that was never blown up). To avoid pain the person will eventually provide the answer the torturer wants, because the pain stops.
It's the major pitfall of torture. I can guarantee that with the correct application of torture, anyone will say anything to end the pain.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Someone mentioned about not taking random people off the street.
I think quite a few of the people in Guantanamo were indeed just that.....
Better, there was a bounty for Al-Queada/Taliban members, so people turned their personal enemies over regardless of affiliations IRC. Not our brightest moment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/26 00:13:31
I thought water boarding was dripping water droplets on some guys head over and over and over until he or goes crazy. this water boarding looks dangerous
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/28 17:25:31
"See a sword is a key cause when you stick it in people it unlocks their death" - Caboose
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