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Ive just been thinking while replying to a post & I have just realised how resilient orgyns actually are - Even in respects to other, highly expensive, shock troops. Again, thier offensive abilities are respectable. They need cover & can confer cover saves to a vehicle, being so bulky (-nothing to do with thier actual bulky rule, sorry!)

Thusly thinking, I have come up with this template;

1)Either 1x Infantry platoon & 5 squads combined into a 20 & 30man squad OR 2x Infantry platoon with 3-5 infantry squads each, blobbed singularly.

This gives you 1-2 PCS (use later) & two blobs of infantry ranging from 20 to 50 men.

2) Two commissars (stubborn, essentail) & two Priests (re-roll to WS, essentail)
2.b) two voxes & perhaps some assault GL's/Flamers/sgt or commissar power weapons

3) Orgyn squad of + 2-3 models & a Lord commissar (power weapon). LD10 bubble plus an added benifit to the ogryns themselves.

4) Creed in a chimera with camo-netting. Weapons to match needs/support group. Regimental standard (purely for the orgyns sake).

For example;

See army lists. I made one. Keeps this thread clear of muck. Any thoughts on Ogryns, have people actually done the numbers vs various types of squads or shooting. C&c?

Just looking at the stat line ogryns don't look bad. Only when you look at the points cost do you realize that they aren't that good. Compare the cost of ogryns with lets say GKT, and you will find that the ogryn isn't very efficient. With the huge points break guard gets in this book I won't say they are total waste of points, but there is certainly more powerful things you can take.

I think Ogryn can make solid counter assault units, and a big Ogryn unit is a very solid force. I think the problem is that they do not compliment any of the other units and all of the other guard assault units are rather weak.

I took a look at your list over in army lists and I think that there may be some possiblities, but I think that pure assualt guard will only ever work against Tau or Guard Gunline, but assaulty guard supported by a gunline might have a shot.

Ogryns are indeed quite decent. I've used them a couple of times now in various lists and against different opponents (horde Orks, Mech Eldar, Daemons...). The only time they really let me down was in CC against a GUO but then again this isn't their ideal target in the first place.

Leadership is the biggest issue. If you can find a way around that, all will be well. The most resilient but also most costly option is Yarrick. I've also toyed with the idea of a Commissar Lord that does not join them but hangs around them, preferrably in a regular squad.

Small arms fire or the possibility to break from shooting can be mitigated with a Chimera.

If you take Creed anyways, have the Ogryns outflank. A unit of 6 will present a credible threat to most armies.

For any list made with capturing objectives in mind, Ogryns can be a boon. You can shield them in or behind a transport, or you can have them walk/run behind assault tanks (or mix and match both). Throw in a merged platoon with powerswords, assault weapons and meltabombs, and it makes for a nifty assault group.

Lastly, I don't see why GKT would be much better. The leadership issue doesn't exist but fearless can be a liability. The armour is obviously better but with a single wound and less T, there are ways around this. It's not as if people couldn't somehow deal with Terminators. Stormbolters are inferior to ripper guns at >=12". Their other abilities notwithstanding, sustained attack for Daemons is not what I would want, and lastly, they're a tad more expensive.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
Leadership is the biggest issue. If you can find a way around that, all will be well. The most resilient but also most costly option is Yarrick. I've also toyed with the idea of a Commissar Lord that does not join them but hangs around them, preferrably in a regular squad.

I think youve nailed thier biggest weakness. A commissar lords bubble + a regimental standard, for the win.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:Lastly, I don't see why GKT would be much better. The leadership issue doesn't exist but fearless can be a liability. The armour is obviously better but with a single wound and less T, there are ways around this. It's not as if people couldn't somehow deal with Terminators. Stormbolters are inferior to ripper guns at >=12". Their other abilities notwithstanding, sustained attack for Daemons is not what I would want, and lastly, they're a tad more expensive.

First of all, there is no longer such a thing as Sustained Attack. So, no real disadvantage.

Secondly, the Grey Knight Terminators have Offensive Capabilities. And, actually, superior defensive capabilities against weapons of almost every AP, as well as from a longer range with the Shrouding. Ogryns, on the charge, are Strength 6. Grey Knight Terminators are always Strength 6, but are also wielding power weapons. Combined with Iron Hand Straken, the GKTs become ferocious in close combat, at Strength 7, Initiative 5. Counter-Attack gives them extra hitting power even when they get charged.

Also, in Cover-rich environments (i.e. Fifth Edition) the Incinerator option for GKTs allows for some meaningful shooting, which even ignores Invulnerable saves.

Seems like a no-brainer, really.

I wont use GKT because, if there ever was anything that was chessey, using allies for 5ed IG is.

I shall retract all of that if any new erratas or FAQ's come out reinforcing the ability for IG to use allies but meh, it just doesnt feel right.

While you say superior defensive capabilities.. how many boltgun rounds does it take to fell a GKT? Actual boltgun hits, not shots fired (to make it easier).

The thing I keep coming back to with Ogryns is their toughness. With T5 and 3 wounds (not to mention the Bone'ead and the ability to do minor wound allocation shenanigans) they require an unprecedented quantity of firepower to damage. Let's compare to the aforementioned GKTs.

10 Dire Avengers or 10 Marines rapid firing Bolters:
-20 shots, 13.33 hits;
-ss Ogryns: 4.44 wounds, 2.22 hits in cover
-vs GKTs: 6.67 wounds, 1.11 wounds
I would consider this result a toss-up, they both probably lose a guy, but cover gives the Ogryns a chance to go without casualties.

Rapid Firing Veteran Squad (this can stand in for any unit putting a lot of plasma/melta/lascannon hits on our assault squads).
-6 shots, 4 hits, 3.33 wounds on each
-vs Ogryns: That's 1 dead, or no casualties if you can allocate a wound to the Bone'ead. 1.66 wounds if in cover. No casualties.
-vs GKTs: 2.22 dead GKTs, 1.66 dead if in cover.
Ogryns win this one.

Dakkafex:
-8 shots, 6 hits
-vs. Ogryn: 5.33 wounds in the open, 2.66 wounds in cover
-vs. GKT: 5.83 wounds, 0.97 kills
In the open, the edge goes to the GKT, in cover it is close.

4 * Heavy Bolter Devastators
-12 shots, 8 hits
-vs. Ogryn: 4 wounds, 2 wounds if in cover
-vs. GKT: 5.33 wounds, 0.89 kills
Again, in the open they both lose one, in cover the Ogryns are tougher.

I won't belabor the point, but I think it is obvious that Against AP 2 stuff, Ogryns come out the clear winner, and against AP3 or better stuff, they are pretty even. The kicker is, though, that in cover, Ogryns usually manage to edge out GKTs even against the volume of fire stuff that causes them the most problems.

The ability for IG to take daemonhunter allies never came from their own book, it came from the DH book. The DH book has not changed, so taking them is still legal. In fact the DH inquisitor with mystics is becoming a common sight in any army that can take them. In addition people are having battle sisters jump out of IG vehicles. Heck people are taking SoB heroes with Book of St Lucius for a nice LD 10 unmodifiable bubble.

There is no rules as written OR rules as intended issue, and it is within fluff for guard to need help from the inquisition. So I can't think of any legitimate reason to object to running inquisition with guard. I can see the point in a friendly game of not running something considered to be overpowered, but in a normal game or tourney game adding house rules to hose a legal combination is really weak.

Bolt guns are really only dangerous when they rapid fire. Let say that you let a squad of space marines get withing 12 unmolested, and they rapid fire their bolters at a squad of 5 GKT (5 because you got them as a counter assualt unit, 3 is good only for the option of 2 psycannons) There is 8 models with bolters, and the heavy weapon guy has a bolt pistol (and MM), and the special weapon guy has a melta. 17 shots, just under 12 hit, just under 6 wounds, just under 1 failed save. If you add the melta, then 1 more termie has a good chance of biting it. Since the GKT are nearly full strength, and the SM are stupidly in charge range, the GKT will shoot then assault and kill the SMs. Ogryns on the other hand, will take just under 4 wounds from bolters, and maybe lose 1 model. The melta will most likely wound. On your turn the ogryn will shoot, then assualt, and have a good chance of killing some space marines in combat. But they will get hurt back more than the GKT, and the SM might get lucky making saves which the GKT don't allow. Since GKT and ogryns die at the same rate to boter fire, you have to look at the fact that GKT get saves vs more things, and that GKT dish out much more punishment in combat and shooting. Add in the other capabilities, and the points difference between the two makes the ogryns the overpriced model. Even thought the ogryn is cheaper, it does much less on the board than cost should reflect.

To make ogryns work the way you want them, you have to take multiple expensive units. GKT are plug and play. They do the job of ogryns better, cheaper (when taking the amount of other units you need to make them work), and have more options in how to use them.

That being said, for the cost of ogryns or GKT, you can get quite a bit of shooting, enough that maybe you won't need a counter assault unit. And if you need more bullet catchers, get more men.

A squad of 10 marines, armed with 7 boltguns, bolt pistols & one melta causes 2.9 wounds of rapid-fire boltguns & the melta causes 0.5 wounds so you may loose a orgyns, if you allocate one wound to the bone'ead.

lol.. I forget, they get FC as standard.

15 str 5 ap- ripper gun attacks @ bs3. 1.6 failed saves. One marine dies.

10 ws 4 I4 str 4 attacks from the marines - Causes one wound, barely. - Bone'ead gets this, no models lost.

21 ws4 str6 I3 attacks from the Ogryns - Rougly 4 marines die from failed saves. Orgyns win combat by 3, marines will either run away & double tap or get caught & suffer no retreat! wounds on 3+ saves. 210pts of ogryns whittle down 180pts of marines. A marine win? Perhaps.

- Id like to add, as Ogryns reeally need Leadership boosters, cover-save screens and thats about it - to work really effectively.

The ability for IG to take daemonhunter allies never came from their own book, it came from the DH book. The DH book has not changed, so taking them is still legal. In fact the DH inquisitor with mystics is becoming a common sight in any army that can take them. In addition people are having battle sisters jump out of IG vehicles. Heck people are taking SoB heroes with Book of St Lucius for a nice LD 10 unmodifiable bubble.

There is no rules as written OR rules as intended issue, and it is within fluff for guard to need help from the inquisition. So I can't think of any legitimate reason to object to running inquisition with guard. I can see the point in a friendly game of not running something considered to be overpowered, but in a normal game or tourney game adding house rules to hose a legal combination is really weak.

I agree complely.

To try to drive this home, if you think using DH/WH in 5e is cheesy, why was it not cheesy in 4e ? Or are you just saying that the rules in the DH/WH books should never have been followed?

Nothing has changed as the only rules that ever allowed allies were in the DH/WH books. Of course there will never be a FAQ allowing allies in the IG book because it has nothing to do with the IG book and never did. The only way a FAQ could apply would be for one to NOT allow allies with the IG.

As long as there is a codex called "Imperial Guard" allies are 100% unambiguosuly, clearly and without possible question legal by both RAW and RAI. It does not matter if its 3rd ed, 5th ed or 37th ed.

And what has changed in the fluff that suddenly the Inquisition to not work with the Imperial guard?

I just do not understand where this comes from.

bigtmac68 wrote:

The ability for IG to take daemonhunter allies never came from their own book, it came from the DH book. The DH book has not changed, so taking them is still legal. In fact the DH inquisitor with mystics is becoming a common sight in any army that can take them. In addition people are having battle sisters jump out of IG vehicles. Heck people are taking SoB heroes with Book of St Lucius for a nice LD 10 unmodifiable bubble.

There is no rules as written OR rules as intended issue, and it is within fluff for guard to need help from the inquisition. So I can't think of any legitimate reason to object to running inquisition with guard. I can see the point in a friendly game of not running something considered to be overpowered, but in a normal game or tourney game adding house rules to hose a legal combination is really weak.

I agree complely.

To try to drive this home, if you think using DH/WH in 5e is cheesy, why was it not cheesy in 4e ? Or are you just saying that the rules in the DH/WH books should never have been followed?

Nothing has changed as the only rules that ever allowed allies were in the DH/WH books. Of course there will never be a FAQ allowing allies in the IG book because it has nothing to do with the IG book and never did. The only way a FAQ could apply would be for one to NOT allow allies with the IG.

As long as there is a codex called "Imperial Guard" allies are 100% unambiguosuly, clearly and without possible question legal by both RAW and RAI. It does not matter if its 3rd ed, 5th ed or 37th ed.

And what has changed in the fluff that suddenly the Inquisition to not work with the Imperial guard?

I just do not understand where this comes from.

Somthing has changed. I said chessy, not illegeal. What has changed is the imperial guard book. Whats inside it has changed. The FAQ would be nice for the DH/WH books to confirm thier rules in regards to the new IG codex. Yes its in relation to the IG codex, reguardless of what edition, but it was written with its current edition in mind, not this new edition.. the chessy point comes from possible broken combos that just could not have been forseen in the rules conception.

Razerous wrote:

bigtmac68 wrote:

The ability for IG to take daemonhunter allies never came from their own book, it came from the DH book. The DH book has not changed, so taking them is still legal. In fact the DH inquisitor with mystics is becoming a common sight in any army that can take them. In addition people are having battle sisters jump out of IG vehicles. Heck people are taking SoB heroes with Book of St Lucius for a nice LD 10 unmodifiable bubble.

There is no rules as written OR rules as intended issue, and it is within fluff for guard to need help from the inquisition. So I can't think of any legitimate reason to object to running inquisition with guard. I can see the point in a friendly game of not running something considered to be overpowered, but in a normal game or tourney game adding house rules to hose a legal combination is really weak.

I agree complely.

To try to drive this home, if you think using DH/WH in 5e is cheesy, why was it not cheesy in 4e ? Or are you just saying that the rules in the DH/WH books should never have been followed?

Nothing has changed as the only rules that ever allowed allies were in the DH/WH books. Of course there will never be a FAQ allowing allies in the IG book because it has nothing to do with the IG book and never did. The only way a FAQ could apply would be for one to NOT allow allies with the IG.

As long as there is a codex called "Imperial Guard" allies are 100% unambiguosuly, clearly and without possible question legal by both RAW and RAI. It does not matter if its 3rd ed, 5th ed or 37th ed.

And what has changed in the fluff that suddenly the Inquisition to not work with the Imperial guard?

I just do not understand where this comes from.

Somthing has changed. I said chessy, not illegeal. What has changed is the imperial guard book. Whats inside it has changed. The FAQ would be nice for the DH/WH books to confirm thier rules in regards to the new IG codex. Yes its in relation to the IG codex, reguardless of what edition, but it was written with its current edition in mind, not this new edition.. the chessy point comes from possible broken combos that just could not have been forseen in the rules conception.

Fair enough, I can at least see where you are coming from. I dont agree but I can respect where you are getting your idea from. There will not be an FAQ since the dont FAQ things that are very clear in the rules. So this is more something where you feel that having the WH/DH interact with the newer units in the IG book creates combos that are more powerful than were intended with the WH/DH books were created.

I can respect that position even if I do not agree with it. The only thing I would point out is that there is no question that it will be played that way in any tournament, but if tourney play is not your thing then play the game the way it feels best to you.

I would also just mention that in the 5th ed world of Nob Bikers, Cairos Crusher spam, Mono Tzetch devastation, Elrad abuse ect.. I have a really hard time seeing anything in the WH/DH books as overpowered. In fact without it, guard is almost an auto loose against most of the top tier armies. It is only with the aid of the WH/DH that it becomes a truly top tier competitive list.

But that I admit freely is just IMHO

Razerous wrote:A squad of 10 marines, armed with 7 boltguns, bolt pistols & one melta causes 2.9 wounds of rapid-fire boltguns & the melta causes 0.5 wounds so you may loose a orgyns, if you allocate one wound to the bone'ead.

lol.. I forget, they get FC as standard.

15 str 5 ap- ripper gun attacks @ bs3. 1.6 failed saves. One marine dies.

10 ws 4 I4 str 4 attacks from the marines - Causes one wound, barely. - Bone'ead gets this, no models lost.

21 ws4 str6 I3 attacks from the Ogryns - Rougly 4 marines die from failed saves. Orgyns win combat by 3, marines will either run away & double tap or get caught & suffer no retreat! wounds on 3+ saves. 210pts of ogryns whittle down 180pts of marines. A marine win? Perhaps.

- Id like to add, as Ogryns reeally need Leadership boosters, cover-save screens and thats about it - to work really effectively.

The difference is that GKT get quite a few attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, with no save. I doubt there would be any marines alive to have a chance to fall back and regroup. Ogryns are good enough to take out tac squads, but not as well as GKT. And lets face it, tac squads aren't reallly that great in combat, and GKT can usually handle things that Ogryns have no business taking on. GKT can also take options that make them more useful, like psychic hoods and long range S6 shooting that ignores Inv saves.

I won't argue that ogryns can be decent. Versus banshees I would say ogryns do better, since S3 power weapons tend bounce off of T5 multi wound models. GKT will probably die to a man where the ogryns will probably have something left.

Either way, the real question is: Do I really need this role filled in my army, or am I just looking for a reason to run ogryns?

It is only with the aid of the WH/DH that it becomes a truly top tier competitive list.

And this is exactly the problem. When an army has to look outside of its own book to a codex written *two editions ago*, so it can "unlock" easter eggs and special combos, there is something seriously wrong with said army book.

I don't think guard need any outside help at all, to be honest. The book is strong enough as it is. When people were using the same 3rd edition guard book that the WH/DH codexes specifically referred to, I didn't have a problem with the use/abuse of allies, even in 4th. But now, with so many changes brought both by 5th ed. guard and, more importantly, 5th edition itself, it seems abusive to use allies. It just brings about to many unintended combos and unforseen rules conflicts.

notabot187 wrote:

Razerous wrote:A squad of 10 marines, armed with 7 boltguns, bolt pistols & one melta causes 2.9 wounds of rapid-fire boltguns & the melta causes 0.5 wounds so you may loose a orgyns, if you allocate one wound to the bone'ead.

lol.. I forget, they get FC as standard.

15 str 5 ap- ripper gun attacks @ bs3. 1.6 failed saves. One marine dies.

10 ws 4 I4 str 4 attacks from the marines - Causes one wound, barely. - Bone'ead gets this, no models lost.

21 ws4 str6 I3 attacks from the Ogryns - Rougly 4 marines die from failed saves. Orgyns win combat by 3, marines will either run away & double tap or get caught & suffer no retreat! wounds on 3+ saves. 210pts of ogryns whittle down 180pts of marines. A marine win? Perhaps.

- Id like to add, as Ogryns reeally need Leadership boosters, cover-save screens and thats about it - to work really effectively.

The difference is that GKT get quite a few attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s, with no save. I doubt there would be any marines alive to have a chance to fall back and regroup. Ogryns are good enough to take out tac squads, but not as well as GKT. And lets face it, tac squads aren't reallly that great in combat, and GKT can usually handle things that Ogryns have no business taking on. GKT can also take options that make them more useful, like psychic hoods and long range S6 shooting that ignores Inv saves.

I won't argue that ogryns can be decent. Versus banshees I would say ogryns do better, since S3 power weapons tend bounce off of T5 multi wound models. GKT will probably die to a man where the ogryns will probably have something left.

Either way, the real question is: Do I really need this role filled in my army, or am I just looking for a reason to run ogryns?

A bit from colum A and a little bit from colum B (colum. collum? coullum? Coloum? Bah..) Thier fun, hard to kill and krumpy-given the right support.

A squad of GKT's vs a squad of Ogryns? Or is it standard TH/SS termies that do badly against Ogryns.. Hmm if thier fighting at I4/ & s6 then yes, poor ogryns.

And this is exactly the problem. When an army has to look outside of its own book to a codex written *two editions ago*, so it can "unlock" easter eggs and special combos, there is something seriously wrong with said army book.

I don't think guard need any outside help at all, to be honest. The book is strong enough as it is. When people were using the same 3rd edition guard book that the WH/DH codexes specifically referred to, I didn't have a problem with the use/abuse of allies, even in 4th. But now, with so many changes brought both by 5th ed. guard and, more importantly, 5th edition itself, it seems abusive to use allies. It just brings about to many unintended combos and unforseen rules conflicts.

I think that is overstating it really. For the most part the new book interacts with DH/WH identically with only a few small exceptions. DH Inq with Mystics function exactly the same as they did 5 weeks ago, how are the cheesy now, but not then ? The dont interact any differently with the current guard dex than the did with the last guard dex.

I can see people being upset about GKT in Valkyries. There is plenty of precedent that Termies should not be riding in transports other than the LandRaider, but other than this one instance I cant think of anything in this book that changes the synergy to make having DH any more powerful with 5the ed guard than it was with 4th ed guard other than the fact that 4th ed guard was so weak that nothing could help it.

Inquisiton has allways been a part of imperial armies from the earliest days of Rogue Trader.

Anyway, were just going in circles, we obviously disagree strongly on this point and are not going to convice each other. And I think it may just come down to the fact that I dont belive in the idea of cheese or abusive lists at all.

My outlook has allways been If its legal, its allowed.

As to the idea that guard can be competitive in a tournament environment without DH, I think you will be sadly dissapointed.

I can tell you from recent expereience that against 3 of the top 4 tier one tournmanet armies any form of Mech Vet IG is an auto loose without Inquisitor and Mystics. If you just go back to gunline then you may as well be playing 4th ed guard and we know how well that army list performed.

A full size Ogryn squad is 410 pts. An IG player could have 80 stock guardsmen, 2 well equipped LRBTs, or an ord battery for roughly the same cost. That is the essential problem with Ogryn, for the points there are other options in the codex that are just as if not more deadly.

They are not terrible by themselves, but they are definitely not a "must have" option.

I dont think anyone is saying they are a "must have" or "best of" type of choice only that there might be ways to use them that dont suck.

DH Inq with Mystics function exactly the same as they did 5 weeks ago, how are the cheesy now, but not then ? The dont interact any differently with the current guard dex than the did with the last guard dex.

I don't want to go through your post line-by-line explaining why everything you said is wrong, but I will address this one point. The mystics don't function the same way, because the units that they can confer their "shoot deep-strikers" to have changed. Could you shoot a unit of deep-strikers with an entire 50-man 5 plasmagun blobsquad? An entire squad of tanks? Anything at all that could lob 3-5 plasmacannon templates? No, you couldn't. Any changes to *either book* will introduce new combinations and synergies.

If you can't comprehend that a new guard book with new guard units mean new, unforseen interactions with the preexisting WH/DH rules, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

Its a case of.. you could buy 40 naked guardsmen or about 20-30 well equipped guardsmen (lascannons, gl's, voxes, commissars, plasma guns, autocannons, that sort of thing).

Assuming you can keep ogryns in cover, behind infantry is the best bet, they wont die very quickly, unlike guardsmen. They need to be dealt with or they will do somthing nasty to your lines. 50 conscripts or 30 & a mandatory Lord commissar cost as much as a 5man squad.. and even with Creed/strakken support, they just lack a punch and can die very quickly to the right weaponary, of which there many types. Also lacking basic things like frag grenades & are Alot harder to hide/cover with yet more infantry due to thier size.

Tanks..well, thats the beauty of the Ogryns, you either need to dedicated massive amounts of small arms/anti-troop firepower to these guys thus allowing your other infantry some breathing space or/and you need to point str7-10 anti-tank weapons to really knock them down which gives your own tanks an easier day.

Oh..

dumbuket wrote:

DH Inq with Mystics function exactly the same as they did 5 weeks ago, how are the cheesy now, but not then ? The dont interact any differently with the current guard dex than the did with the last guard dex.

I don't want to go through your post line-by-line explaining why everything you said is wrong, but I will address this one point. The mystics don't function the same way, because the units that they can confer their "shoot deep-strikers" to have changed. Could you shoot a unit of deep-strikers with an entire 50-man 5 plasmagun blobsquad? An entire squad of tanks? Anything at all that could lob 3-5 plasmacannon templates? No, you couldn't. Any changes to *either book* will introduce new combinations and synergies.

If you can't comprehend that a new guard book with new guard units mean new, unforseen interactions with the preexisting WH/DH rules, then there's nothing I can do to help you.

QTF < What he said.

The only major problem with them is that even if they hit nice, wound nice, but then your opponent can make armour saves. If they would have power weapons, they would be pretty good

I don't want to go through your post line-by-line explaining why everything you said is wrong, but I will address this one point. The mystics don't function the same way, because the units that they can confer their "shoot deep-strikers" to have changed. Could you shoot a unit of deep-strikers with an entire 50-man 5 plasmagun blobsquad? An entire squad of tanks? Anything at all that could lob 3-5 plasmacannon templates? No, you couldn't. Any changes to *either book* will introduce new combinations and synergies

Alright, i admit I overstated my case a bit and I concede the point that the interaction has become more effective with the new book.

I can see how those of you who believe in the concept of things being overpowered could have problems with mystics combined with an executioner squadron, and that is new.

EDITED MY RANT OUT AS IT SERVES NO POINT AND DOES NOT ADD TO THE DISCUSSION

suffice it to say that i just dont agree with the very concept of overpowered so im not a good person to have in this discussion.

To me, if its legal, its allowed simple as that.

MinMax wrote:
First of all, there is no longer such a thing as Sustained Attack. So, no real disadvantage.

True, silly me. Guess how often I've used that rule.

Secondly, the Grey Knight Terminators have Offensive Capabilities.

Ah, but so do the Ogryns.

As others have pointed out, the Ogryns higher T and multiple wounds make them just as resilient against most opponents, so which unit has the better defensive capabilities is situational. Ogryns do not care about power weapons, GKT's do not care about heavy bolters.

Of course you can add all kinds of gubbins (Straken, Incinerator, Land Raider) to improve GKT's even more yet at the end of the day, you end up with a unit costing more than double the points of 6 Ogryns, and that doesn't tell us much.

bigtmac68 wrote:
it is within fluff for guard to need help from the inquisition.

Not at all. They have a stand-alone codex, and if they need help, something is awry. From a background POV, they get help. Sometimes. And therein lies the rub: GKT's are not an Imperial Guard unit, and even though it is completely legal to use them, some players simply do not like allies (just as some do not like tanks, or ratlings, or whatnot).

And what has changed in the fluff that suddenly the Inquisition to not work with the Imperial guard?

From a background POV, inquisitorial support (or rather the other way around) is comparatively rare, yet in-game it appears to be the mainstream form of Guard, so I can see why people would not want to jump on the bandwagon.

notabot187 wrote:
The difference is that GKT get quite a few attacks

GKT's are without a doubt better in close combat against MEQ's due to their power weapons but many attacks are the last thing that would set the apart from Ogryns. After all, they get less attacks, not only from their statline but because they start with one model less (4 GKT's + Brother Captain = 245 points, 6 Ogryns = 250 points). That's 16 vs 25 attacks in the Ogryns' favour.

Ogryns are good enough to take out tac squads, but not as well as GKT. And lets face it, tac squads aren't reallly that great in combat, and GKT can usually handle things that Ogryns have no business taking on.

It might be really farfetched but what business does a 250 point deathstar unit have taking out basic marines in the first place? Perhaps the specific example skews the picture.

GKT can also take options that make them more useful, like psychic hoods and long range S6 shooting that ignores Inv saves.

Yes, but again, they then become more expensive, too.

At the risk of sounding slightly puritan,
Ogryns are inhuman (not to mention dumb) mutants, Grey Knights are not.
Grey Knights are Knights in shining armour, you can actually picture them as champions of humanity, saving damsels in distress etc. Ogryns are not. Clear cut case.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

Quasi-QFT (there was lots.. but it was allll good)

Emperors Faithful wrote:At the risk of sounding slightly puritan,
Ogryns are inhuman (not to mention dumb) mutants, Grey Knights are not.
Grey Knights are Knights in shining armour, you can actually picture them as champions of humanity, saving damsels in distress etc. Ogryns are not. Clear cut case.

Ogryns are totally loyal the the Emperor, praise his name. Thier a subhuman race that have proven very useful to the Imperial guard. They work to please the emperor.

The inquisition works above & beyound any other authority. They have the power to commendeer entire armies or obliterate whole planets at the show of a seal. They do not work for anyone.
Yet some (Ordus mallus - anti-psykers?) would concider them heretical due to thier abilities & intents to use psychic powers so its all sticks & stones.

Emperors Faithful wrote:At the risk of sounding slightly puritan,
Ogryns are inhuman (not to mention dumb) mutants, Grey Knights are not.
Grey Knights are Knights in shining armour, you can actually picture them as champions of humanity, saving damsels in distress etc. Ogryns are not. Clear cut case.

I believe in this you are wrong. Ogryns are abhuman, not inhuman. They are descended from "baseline" humans whose existence on certain planets influenced their development into Ogryns. Grey Knights are Space Marines. They are genetically and mechanically modified to be different (better) than humans. They have more and different organs, biochemistry, and psychology. They may be more human sized than Ogryn, but they are less human.

Interesting experience this weekend. I was part of a tournament at a FLGS 2250, superheavies allowed.

One of the players ran an IG list with 10 Ogryn led by a Prymaris Psyker, He also had a ShadowSword, one meltademo vet squad in a Valk, an infantry platoon with AC and a LC squad, one CCS, a pair of standard hell hounds and a Conscript Squad. (i.e. not an optimized torney list.)

In my game against him using a significatnly toned down version of my Mech Vet list ( demolishers replaced with basic russ, only two vet squads supported by two mechanized infantry platoons instead of the normal 20 meltagun and no superheavies)

I found that the best tactic was to simply ignore the ogryn. We were playing 5 objectives so i just ignored the objective the ogryn were near, and focused on the rest of his army. worked like a charm as once they were all dead I was able to then focus on the Ogryn. By that time the game was well in the bag as I already had 4 of the 5 objectives and the only thing left were th ogryn which I killed on turns 6 and 7.

Had the game ended at turn 5 he would have lost 4-0 and had nothing left but a nearly 500 point non scoring squad that had done nothing all game simply because it was too slow to make any impact.

He played 4 other games and we were talking after the tourney at which point he decided he would be pulling the ogryn and going for a more traditional mech vet build as he had the same situation happen to him against a sister player who was able to ignore the ogryn and kill everything else due to the mobility of a fully meched up list.

Not making any overall conclusions here, none of us were playing optimal lists and there were only 7 total participants. Still it was interesting to see them in action.

Anything mech can outrun foot-based infantry all day, theres no question.

Ignoring them until turns 5-6-7 is a bad idea (unless your playing a 2250pt game where you obviously were able to field a silly amount of firepower)

6" move + D6 run is enough to get towards a big targetable threat (i.e not a AV14 landraider) within about turns 3-4. If the army your fielding against employs MSU then this is obviously a disadvantage but still i'd say 10 ogryns is overkill anyway.

Biopsycic and Raverous,
All I'm saying is that if you are looking for gallantry, stop there at space marines and such. By the way space marines started off a lot more human than Ogryns ever were, they understand thier mission to serve the Emperor and Humanity. Ogryn can't even comprehend anything more complex than the navigation of their left nostril.

Also I'm only having a go at Ogryn mutants because I'm a witch hunter , Can you really blame me?