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PHOENIX – The tagline on Shawna Forde's anti-illegal immigration Web site says her group was "doing the job our government won't do." They wanted to patrol the border, but her small band of activists needed money to do it.

So, authorities say, Forde and two men dressed up as Border Patrol agents and broke into the southern Arizona home of a man they thought was a drug dealer, hunting for money or drugs to sell. They found neither, but killed the man and his 9-year-old daughter.

In recent weeks, a white supremacist was accused of killing a black guard at the U.S. Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., and an ardent abortion foe allegedly shot and killed a prominent Kansas abortion doctor.

The possibility that activists in the anti-illegal immigration movement would use violence did not surprise Heidi Beirich, research director at the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate groups.

"We figured for a long time that we were going to get violence out of this movement," she said.

Her organization says the number of hate groups nationwide has risen 54 percent since 2000, fueled by opposition to Hispanic immigration and, more recently, by the election of the nation's first black president and the economic downturn.

The death toll rises, the report issued a while back talked about keeping an eye on these groups, and the Ultra conservative (not republicans) got all pissy. Anti-minority immagrant, and abortion groups were listed. All have made kills in a one month span.

Bastards. I think I can make an exception to my opposition of the death penalty just for Hilter-loving bigots like these.

Thats bad,racial hatred only fuels more violence.It's is sad to see that someone was even shot at the holocaust museum.

What is the world coming to.And why the hell did they kill a 9 year old girl?
Killing any kid,no matter what colour their skin is,is wrong!

sexiest_hero wrote:

PHOENIX – The tagline on Shawna Forde's anti-illegal immigration Web site says her group was "doing the job our government won't do." They wanted to patrol the border, but her small band of activists needed money to do it.

So, authorities say, Forde and two men dressed up as Border Patrol agents and broke into the southern Arizona home of a man they thought was a drug dealer, hunting for money or drugs to sell. They found neither, but killed the man and his 9-year-old daughter.

In recent weeks, a white supremacist was accused of killing a black guard at the U.S. Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C., and an ardent abortion foe allegedly shot and killed a prominent Kansas abortion doctor.

The possibility that activists in the anti-illegal immigration movement would use violence did not surprise Heidi Beirich, research director at the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate groups.

"We figured for a long time that we were going to get violence out of this movement," she said.

Her organization says the number of hate groups nationwide has risen 54 percent since 2000, fueled by opposition to Hispanic immigration and, more recently, by the election of the nation's first black president and the economic downturn.

The death toll rises, the report issued a while back talked about keeping an eye on these groups, and the Ultra conservative (not republicans) got all pissy. Anti-minority immagrant, and abortion groups were listed. All have made kills in a one month span.

I'm not exactly clear at what you're trying to achieve with this post. It is a horrible crime, no question about it, but you're a little thin on information here. What are you quoting? Is this a newspaper article or just a news release from SPLC? It is a horrible crime, no question, and I assure you I feel as disgusted as any of you by it, but you seem to be painting it as a hate crime. You didn't mention the race of the victims. So far, it looks like you've described a robbery/murder scenario of which some anti immigrant activists have been accused, not convicted, of perpetrating.

I'm also not sure what you claiming. Are you trying to claim that "these groups" (who?) need to be monitored? By whom, the government? The Southern Poverty Law Center has monitored groups that they consider hate groups for years, yet they haven't been able to stop any of this. If this is indeed what you're arguing, I've stated in the last paragraph that you haven't proven your case to me, particularly if you're advocating monitoring U.S. citizens who haven't been accused of any crime, or even suspected of a crime, other than holding beliefs that aren't approved of by the majority. This sounds a lot like the PATRIOT act, which had a great deal of opposition by privacy advocates.

I wouldn't consider any figures released by SPLC to be objective. Remember, they are a non profit organization with a political agenda. I'm not asking whether you agree with their goals or not, but the fact is I question their objectivity. I have always gotten the impression that any group or individual that doesn't like minorities is labeled a hate criminal by them. I don't think it is very nice to dislike people purely on the basis of race, but it isn't a crime. Furthermore, I don't see how the abortion related killings have anything to do with their original stated mission.

Also I should mention that the "hate group" watchdogs ADL and SPLC have, in the past, labeled various groups as hate groups solely on the fact that they utilize iconography and imagery that is also used by white supremacist groups. I'm specifically referring to some neopagan religious groups that found themselves branded as racist because they used sig runes or triskellions or what have you. It sounds like modern day witch hunting to me.

Amen brother. Since we are going to watch groups that kill Americans, I suggest we add illegal immigrants to your list. So far in 2009 we have multiple killings and negligent homicides at their hands. Perhaps we should consider steps to keep these murderers out of our country. This is by no means a conclusive list, just what a 5 minute Google search netted.

http://bearcreekledger.com/2009/05/12/lebanon-tn-police-officer-killed-by-illegal-aliens/

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2009/may/illegal-immigrant-trial-killing-boy-had-five-drunken-driving-charges

http://www.trentonian.com/articles/2009/04/10/news/doc49deb90b214bb962635491.txt

http://politicalpartypooper.wordpress.com/2009/04/01/illegal-immigrants-kill-three-in-wisconsin-car-crash/

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103

http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2009/05/25/news/local/0166b6d01b808579862575c100123cee.txt

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/27/AR2009052701430.html?wprss=rss_metro/dc

http://idexer.com/2009/06/03/unlicensed-illegal-immigrant-charged-with-auto-crash-death-of-williamstown-woman-in-clayton.html

http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/003139.html

I suggest before we make three crackpots our banner for monitoring US Citizens let's take a look at the numbers and see who the real killers are.

I'll clarify. The race of the slain wern't given, just that they were immergrrang from south of the border. They were targeted for that reason. By groups needing to be monitored, I mean groups that tout and use violence as a means to a goal, say a christian group protesting aabortion is ok. however a group that has been known to use violence, or has been stockpiling weapons, with the intent to use them should be monitored. As for hate crimes, it's a simple thing. When your anti-whatever turns into illegal action. As for neopangan groups using iconography, it's just a lack of good judgement. They know the history of said icon, they have a huge array of icons to use or make up. Using something that they know will offend people and trying to claim "it's just an innocent icon" reeks of bs.

Like criminals that are on parole, groups that have been violent shoud be watched.

Edit: "The green git" the difference is. One is killing based off of no other reason than pure hatred of others. I can assure you the killings don't by Illegals pale to compare with what Americans do to each other every year. As they in no way murder even close to what We do to ourselves, they can in no way be lumped into a "these murderers" group. Each person is just that. Not a hive mind of singleminded ill will.

sexiest_hero wrote:Like criminals that are on parole, groups that have been violent shoud be watched.

So we agree then... groups with proven track records of committing violent crimes should be targeted by law enforcement. Let's start with those illegally in our country.

sexiest_hero wrote:Edit: "The green git" the difference is. One is killing based off of no other reason than pure hatred of others. I can assure you the killings don't by Illegals pale to compare with what Americans do to each other every year. As they in no way murder even close to what We do to ourselves, they can in no way be lumped into a "these murderers" group. Each person is just that. Not a hive mind of singleminded ill will.

Oh... so it's not the fact that they murder or kill that's bothering you... it's what they are thinking when they do it?

What say we just focus on the murderers and sort out their motives at trial? If someone kills someone else with malice and forethought, it's no different if they are a white supremacist or a illegal. They both deserve the same punishment.

The Green Git wrote:

sexiest_hero wrote:Like criminals that are on parole, groups that have been violent shoud be watched.

So we agree then... groups with proven track records of committing violent crimes should be targeted by law enforcement. Let's start with those illegally in our country.

I don't care about illegal crime anymore than I do about crime committed by citizens. What say we just focus on the murderers and sort out their citizenship status at trial? If someone kills someone else with malice and forethought, it's no different if they are a white supremacist or a illegal. They both deserve the same punishment.

Ahtman wrote:I don't care about illegal crime anymore than I do about crime committed by citizens. What say we just focus on the murderers and sort out their citizenship status at trial? If someone kills someone else with malice and forethought, it's no different if they are a white supremacist or a illegal. They both deserve the same punishment.

Preach on brother!

All this talk of "Dangerous Groups" is Left Wing rhetoric for thought control. "Never mind the poor little illegal that's killing people, he's just trying to scratch out a living. But that Right Winger that kills someone is dangerous and all Right Wingers should be punished" is what they really want to say. Makes me want to puke. How about we just prosecute criminals based on the crimes they commit? And if you HAVE to try and make an argument for profiling (which is what the OP really wants to do) then let's back it up with statistics i.e. "this group identified by these defining characteristics are worthy of scrutiny because they commit this many crimes above the national average per capita"?

It wasn't Left Wing thought control in the McCarthy era.

Makes me want to puke. How about we just prosecute criminals based on the crimes they commit? And if you HAVE to try and make an argument for profiling (which is what the OP really wants to do) then let's back it up with statistics i.e. "this group identified by these defining characteristics are worthy of scrutiny because they commit this many crimes above the national average per capita"?

I believe the point of those laws is that no one gives a damn if it's not equal. I don't. They don't. That wasn't the point of the law. It's not equal. It's not supposed to be. These laws are designed to curb a specific social issue that can be curbed. That being racially driven violence. You can't stop murder without changing what man is, but you can stop race crime by making adjustments to the way society acts towards those that are different. These laws are designed to be a mechanism working against the thought that races you don't like have less meaningful lives. You may believe they do, but you will pay more for taking them then otherwise.

Whether the laws work is another issue entirely.

All this talk of "Dangerous Groups" is Left Wing rhetoric for thought control. "Never mind the poor little illegal that's killing people, he's just trying to scratch out a living. But that Right Winger that kills someone is dangerous and all Right Wingers should be punished" is what they really want to say.

I would prefer to say that racist bigots should be shot in the head. It'll never happen, but hey, I'm also not left wing.

It wasn't Left Wing thought control in the McCarthy era.

And it wasn't the left that freed the slaves. Current political climates are much different then they were in the Mcarthy era.





Either way I don't understand the point of this thread. People are killed every day in all kinds of ways. Focusing on the biggest and most effective methods of preventing the most deaths the fastest should be the issue, this is just cherry picking to make a vague point.

would prefer to say that racist bigots should be shot in the head. It'll never happen, but hey, I'm also not left wing.

But wouldn't you then be discriminating on the basis of idealogical differences? What is the difference between that and what the (oh snap Godwin's law!) Nazis thought when they persecuted the Jews? Doesn't make you any better than the people you are hating.

PS: I don't really care about being on the same level as that doesn't matter if your a killin'em anyways. YEE-HAW!!! Kickin it old school!

The Green Git wrote:

Ahtman wrote:I don't care about illegal crime anymore than I do about crime committed by citizens. What say we just focus on the murderers and sort out their citizenship status at trial? If someone kills someone else with malice and forethought, it's no different if they are a white supremacist or a illegal. They both deserve the same punishment.

Preach on brother!

All this talk of "Dangerous Groups" is Left Wing rhetoric for thought control. "Never mind the poor little illegal that's killing people, he's just trying to scratch out a living. But that Right Winger that kills someone is dangerous and all Right Wingers should be punished" is what they really want to say. Makes me want to puke. How about we just prosecute criminals based on the crimes they commit? And if you HAVE to try and make an argument for profiling (which is what the OP really wants to do) then let's back it up with statistics i.e. "this group identified by these defining characteristics are worthy of scrutiny because they commit this many crimes above the national average per capita"?

"Thought control"? My god. The amount of paranoia in that post is astounding, especially the "Right Wingers" section.
Something needs to be done in a situation where a doctor is shot in church for his beliefs. By your logic, terrorist groups should be given free reign until they act, at which point you arrest suicide bombers and put them away. There is no difference between blowing up a bus in Iraq and shooting someone in America for ideological reasons.

By your logic, terrorist groups should be given free reign until they act, at which point you arrest suicide bombers and put them away.

Not quite, its generally hard to arrest someone after they are dead but we could, if guilt has been establish, bury their remains in a pigskin thus keeping the soul from going to paradise. (assuming of course that we are talking about moselim extremists as they seem to be in the majority for suicide bomings)

But wouldn't you then be discriminating on the basis of idealogical differences? What is the difference between that and what the (oh snap Godwin's law!) Nazis thought when they persecuted the Jews? Doesn't make you any better than the people you are hating.

This is where I and a lot of leftists (and right wingers) differ. I don't believe all opinions are worth considering once they are understood. I believe a rational review of the worth of and reason behind a set of ideals is to be considered before any action is to be taken. The ideals themselves are rarely important. Only the repercussions of them. Not everyones opinion is important, not everyone is a dark beautiful snowflake, no one cares about your blog, and my wishing racists would all eat rat poison is not the same as the nazis. That is stupid.

It is a stupid comparison.

Discrimination is awesome when used right. When used right good people discriminate against the bad. Discrimination is a direct result of existing in a society. Things that are deemed unacceptable by society are discriminated against. Get used to it. The issues are always what is being discriminated against and why, not that it happens. It is a tool of society, just like everything else.

Welcome to my world. The world of modern civilized thought and consideration. The world where I think I'm right most of the time because typically, especially in matters of idealism I am (unless we're talking about sugar intakes connection to diabetes!). I will consider your opinion, then tell you you should feth off because of it if I find it necessary. I'm not going to be drawn into a debate of pure ideological parallels between policing thought and and wishing ignorant racists would die, because thats not a meaningful debate and usually you're not one for intelligent or meaningful discussion.

Not quite, its generally hard to arrest someone after they are dead but we could, if guilt has been establish, bury their remains in a pigskin thus keeping the soul from going to paradise. (assuming of course that we are talking about moselim extremists as they seem to be in the majority for suicide bomings)

Case in point.

Woo Hoo we have a Winrar! Shuma Gorath I think you are the first liberal I have conversed with today who didn't really give a crap and told me to get used to it. You win one awsome.

The fact that the American public in general hasn't understood that a giant social/economical imbalance combined with extremely easy acces to deadly weapons/firearms is a horrible idea, is simply amazing.

"It's the Muslims fault!"
"It's the Christians fault!"
"It's the Liberals fault!"
"It's the Conservatives fault!"
"It's the Democrats fault!"
"It's Jodie Fosters fault!"
"It's angry camouflage-wearing, gun-toting maniacs muttering incoherent slogans about freedoms fault!"

No, it's your fault.

Mad Rabbit wrote:"Thought control"? My god. The amount of paranoia in that post is astounding, especially the "Right Wingers" section.
Something needs to be done in a situation where a doctor is shot in church for his beliefs. By your logic, terrorist groups should be given free reign until they act, at which point you arrest suicide bombers and put them away. There is no difference between blowing up a bus in Iraq and shooting someone in America for ideological reasons.

Beg to differ. One is in Iraq, the other is in America. One is governed by the laws and will of the American people. The Constitution (allegedly) holds sway in the US.

How am I paranoid by saying that the Left wishes to silence those that disagree with them? It's true. It's proven.

"Just because you are paranoid does not mean they aren't out to get you."

Avoid Zealots, they are generally humorous.

Seriously, the problem is extremists of all variety who think that gives them the ability to determine who should live and who should die.

The Green Git wrote:

Beg to differ. One is in Iraq, the other is in America. One is governed by the laws and will of the American people. The Constitution (allegedly) holds sway in the US.

You are right. Iraq is indeed currentlt governed by the "laws" and will of the American people.

How am I paranoid by saying that the Left wishes to silence those that disagree with them? It's true. It's proven.

It is also completely redundant. EVERYBODY wishes to silence those that disagree with them. Its just a question of how you wish to silence them.

The Green Git wrote:

Mad Rabbit wrote:"Thought control"? My god. The amount of paranoia in that post is astounding, especially the "Right Wingers" section.
Something needs to be done in a situation where a doctor is shot in church for his beliefs. By your logic, terrorist groups should be given free reign until they act, at which point you arrest suicide bombers and put them away. There is no difference between blowing up a bus in Iraq and shooting someone in America for ideological reasons.

Beg to differ. One is in Iraq, the other is in America. One is governed by the laws and will of the American people. The Constitution (allegedly) holds sway in the US.

How am I paranoid by saying that the Left wishes to silence those that disagree with them? It's true. It's proven.

"Just because you are paranoid does not mean they aren't out to get you."

But suggesting anything as ridiculous as "thought control" is nothing short of hilarious.

Yes, everyone wants their political opponents to shut up and drop out of the race. But you suggest that the "Left" is actually doing something to this effect. Please prove to me that they are doing something improper/immoral (like, oh, say Watergate) and I will put on a tin foil hat and join you.

By the way, shooting someone over their beliefs is just as illegal in Iraq as it is over here.

By hating all rascists to the point of wanting to start genocide against them, aren't you becoming a bigot as well? I mean both of you hate certain types of people.

OT though, I don't care who you are if you are an illegal immigrant. There's a reason they're called "illegal" immigrants, by entering the country they are automatically breaking the law and are criminals.

Illegal immagration: Bad.

Legal Immagration: Good.

Killing: Bad.

Killing Stupid People: Good.


That is all I have to say.

Killing good, murder bad.

halonachos wrote:By hating all rascists to the point of wanting to start genocide against them, aren't you becoming a bigot as well? I mean both of you hate certain types of people.

OT though, I don't care who you are if you are an illegal immigrant. There's a reason they're called "illegal" immigrants, by entering the country they are automatically breaking the law and are criminals.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Kilkrazy wrote:

halonachos wrote:By hating all rascists to the point of wanting to start genocide against them, aren't you becoming a bigot as well? I mean both of you hate certain types of people.

OT though, I don't care who you are if you are an illegal immigrant. There's a reason they're called "illegal" immigrants, by entering the country they are automatically breaking the law and are criminals.

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

How often is that applied in the world though? I still believe that all illegal immigrants should be sent back as punishment and told to come back legally. As to those trying to get in illegally that get scammed by the coyotes I say tough noogies.

Mad Rabbit wrote:But suggesting anything as ridiculous as "thought control" is nothing short of hilarious.

I'm suggesting nothing... I'm flat out stating it. The Liberals want to control how the American populace thinks, and "hate crimes" are the perfect example of this. It's not bad enough that someone murders someone... it's worse if they murder them because they are gay or minority or whatever prejudice happens to play. Thinking badly about someone makes murdering them worse than if you murder them because you are a bloodthirsty gang-banger.

But if you think murdering unborn children is bad, then you are less than worthless because you are opposing abortion, the sacred sacrament of the Left. In fact, if you even question this you are no better than Eric Rudolph or Adolf Hitler for that matter.

Tell me I'm wrong. I dare you. Tell me Liberals everywhere support MY right to think and say whatever I want and tolerate my God given freedom of thought and speech.

Mad Rabbit wrote:Yes, everyone wants their political opponents to shut up and drop out of the race. But you suggest that the "Left" is actually doing something to this effect. Please prove to me that they are doing something improper/immoral (like, oh, say Watergate) and I will put on a tin foil hat and join you.

Let's start with 80% of every dollar contributed to the 2008 election by major networks (ABC, NBC, CBS) going to Democrats. Our allegedly "impartial and unbiased media" certainly seems to lean to the Left. Then let's go with the media literally tripping over itself to gush about our new President. Where are the cries of outrage over the Trillions of dollars in spending? Where are the cries of outrage over the New York "Flyby" incident? Where are the cries of outrage over the $81,000 taxpayer costs for the Obamas having a night on the town? Where are the cries of outrage over Obama remaining totally silent on the Islamic crackdown of Iranian citizens by an oppressive regime while he meddles in the internal politics of Israel?

No, there's no mind control. Everyone is free thinking and opposing views are tolerated and even fostered. Oh, and the Easter Bunny left you a basket of candy too.

there is no point Green Git.... sheep dont think for themselves.

The Green Git wrote:Let's start with 80% of every dollar contributed to the 2008 election by major networks (ABC, NBC, CBS) going to Democrats.

Add in Fox and you find that it becomes 99% to the Republicans, but don't let that stop your ranting.

Gwar! wrote:

The Green Git wrote:Let's start with 80% of every dollar contributed to the 2008 election by major networks (ABC, NBC, CBS) going to Democrats.

Add in Fox and you find that it becomes 99% to the Republicans, but don't let that stop your ranting.

Links to accreadble source's????