Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Now im hearing alot of threads recently describing Nids as sub-par to Mech-lists, especially IG mech.

Reasons given with things like the abundence of melta-weaponary which can hurt monsterous creatures, alot of template gear to kill hordes & generaly being more mobile than the average tyranid.

Now I personally dont agree with this. How many chimeras, leman russes & melta-guns can fit into a 1500pt IG list? Then ill be able to have a better idea.

What do you all think on that premise? Are there any other serious flaws that nids face vs mech lists I havent mentioned?

Razerous wrote:Now im hearing alot of threads recently describing Nids as sub-par to Mech-lists, especially IG mech.

Reasons given with things like the abundence of melta-weaponary which can hurt monsterous creatures, alot of template gear to kill hordes & generaly being more mobile than the average tyranid.

Now I personally dont agree with this. How many chimeras, leman russes & melta-guns can fit into a 1500pt IG list? Then ill be able to have a better idea.

What do you all think on that premise? Are there any other serious flaws that nids face vs mech lists I havent mentioned?

Guard can pack something like 20 meltaguns and prolly like 8 or more heavy flamers really easy at lower points with big guns to back them up.

I know my marine lists generally pack 11-15 multi-meltas, 7 or so heavy flamers and a few meltaguns/flamers depending on the list i'm using. All twin linked. Backed by th/ss terminators

Chaos can pack lots of meltas as well on chosen, oblits, PM's and basic CSM. They back it up with lash.

It's not hard for IG specifically to pack a lot of high strength AP2 firepower into a list. I run a 1000 point list that's not even Mech/Vet and it has a Plasma CCS, Melta Vet squad, Vendetta, and LR (I run it as a Vanquisher because of local meta) with tons of points left over for horde of Guardsmen. Mech Vet with everyone in Chimeras with Meltas/Plasma could probably knock out a couple of MCs each turn without breaking a sweat.

Khornatedemon wrote:

Guard can pack something like 20 meltaguns and prolly like 8 or more heavy flamers really easy at lower points with big guns to back them up.

I know my marine lists generally pack 11-15 multi-meltas, 7 or so heavy flamers and a few meltaguns/flamers depending on the list i'm using. All twin linked. Backed by th/ss terminators

Chaos can pack lots of meltas as well on chosen, oblits, PM's and basic CSM. They back it up with lash.

Dude, gimme a list. Dont spout out figures like that as it doesnt help anyone (well it doesnt help me).

Gimme a breif rundown of this IG or SM list.. or at the very least a point-limit. "at lower points" What, 500pts? 1500pts?

Gornall: With what youve just mentioned, comes to 495pts & those troops arent in transports & your missing a troop choice. With transports your now at 605 & still need a second troop choice. I wouldnt call 3 melta, 3-tl lascannons & 4 plasma specifically spammy nor scary.

Razerous wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

Guard can pack something like 20 meltaguns and prolly like 8 or more heavy flamers really easy at lower points with big guns to back them up.

I know my marine lists generally pack 11-15 multi-meltas, 7 or so heavy flamers and a few meltaguns/flamers depending on the list i'm using. All twin linked. Backed by th/ss terminators

Chaos can pack lots of meltas as well on chosen, oblits, PM's and basic CSM. They back it up with lash.

Dude, gimme a list. Dont spout out figures like that as it doesnt help anyone (well it doesnt help me).

Gimme a breif rundown of this IG or SM list.. or at the very least a point-limit. "at lower points" What, 500pts? 1500pts?

Gornall: With what youve just mentioned, comes to 485pts & those troops arent in transports & your missing a troop choice. With transports your now at 595 & still need a second troop choice. I wouldnt call 3 melta, 3-tl lascannons & 4 plasma specifically spammy nor scary.

i generally try not to play less that 1750. Thats standard in my area so I wouldnt even know what to do for my marines at 1500. I'd probably have to drop my LRR and terminators with would give me points for more melta's and flamers. Something like:
vulkan
3x 10 man tac squad with mg/mm in rhino's
3x dreads with mm/hf
and fill in the rest with mm/hf speeders and maybe dakka preds. Probably something like 5 mm/hf speeders in squads of 2,2,1

giving me 11 twin linked MM's, 3 mg's and 9 heavy flamers.

For guard it costs 910 points for 2 CCS and 4 vet squads all in chimera's with heavy flamers. the vets have 3 mg's and the CCS can either go 4 meltas or what i prefer 3 and a HF. So with 590 points to spare guard has 18 meltaguns and 8 heavy flamers. And the meltas can be ordered twin linked agaisnt MC's. The 590 points can buy an executioner, some devildogs, vedettas, valks, or anything else they have that destroy nids.

Well, with regards to Mech Vets in particular, 3-6 Vendettas packing melta or flamer vets, outflanking to guarantee first shot against the big bugs. Since everything in the Tyranid arsenal is relatively short-ranged and assault-oriented, that's 9-18 lascannons vaporizing anything carrying venom cannons with equal to greater mobility and a flamer payload to vaporize any outflanking stealers. 5 Vendettas, 2 Vets with flamers, and a CCS with flamers is doable within 1000 pts.

It's very hard to get cover from Valkyrie models due to their height advantage. Nid players are losing 2-3 MCs a turn against a mobile force with short range counterassault firepower. That's a pretty nasty matchup.

At 1500 points my opponent ran 3 leman russes 3 chimeras and he wasnt even in a mech list.

For other information I at 1500 points run a mech eldar list, and it has 3 wave serpents and 2 Fire Prisms

HQ
1 Company Command Squad
4 melta gun
1 chimera w/ hull heavy flamer, multi-laser

Troops
1 Platoon Command Squad
4 flamers

1 Infantry Squad
1 flamer

1 Infantry Squad
1 flamer

1 Veterans
3 melta guns
1 chimera w/ hull heavy flamer, multi-laser

1 Veterans
3 plasma guns
1 chimera w/ hull heavy flamer, multi-laser

Fast Attack
1 Vendetta
1 Vendetta
1 Vendetta

Heavy Support
1 Demolisher w/ hull heavy flamer
1 Demolisher w/ hull heavy flamer
1 Leman Russ Battle Tank w/ hull heavy flamer

Heres an example ig list for you. This is exactly 1500 pts. It has:
9 tl lascannons
6 heavy flamers
6 flamers
7 melta guns
3 plasma guns
3 multi-lasers
and 1 battle cannon

This is by no means a fine tuned list just throwing it out there for you.

Are there any other serious flaws that nids face vs mech lists I havent mentioned?

The idea of the transports as cheap protection for the scoring units and misc killy stuff -- sorta like a void shield for your scoring units. This mostly applies to the newer dexes and their 35-55 point transports, becuase they lose very little in offensive or scoring ability going this route.

Yes, hitting rear armor makes transports vulnerable to assault, but that just stalls your assault a turn, leaving you vulnerable to the squad inside as well as their buddies.

Same applies to a shooty zilla list, you have to open up the transport and then get at the squishy bits -- not easy to do in 5ed from range or without melta. And there's only so many turns to get that done, and still also stall or kill the other nasty units.

Also note that these armies aren't losing much, if any, offensive ability in order to mech up and gain these advantages.

I wasn't giving a full list, just some of the highlights. The rest is a couple of Chimeras with HF/HB and infantry squads with GL/ACs and flamer PCS. Like you said, nothing particularly spammy or hard (I play this as my casual list), but still enough AP1-2, flamer templates, and moblity to give a lot of fits to a Nidzilla list at that points level. Warmaster's list is a reasonable example of what a tougher and larger list would look like.

regardless, I believe most truly mech gaurd are having an easier time with current Nid lists, and notice I say easier, that does not in any way mean victory, I think as I have seen new IG is actually having problems with old nids. STRAIGHT HORDE. I mean, nids are some of the speediest hordes out there, most of them having fleet and move through cover, a list with two tyrants+gaurd, and horde beyond imagining would in my opinion actually present a problem for IG, because though they spit out a hell of a lot of fire power per turn, mass fire power wise and template wise they have become less effective, due to the overuse of melta and the constant need to transport everything.

Most nids having fleet, generally means, as with eldar, templates lose a serious amount of effectiveness due to that 13-18" charge range, and the fact that with nids, all models in the squad within 3" instead of 2" count as in close combat meaning a 30 man gaunt squad will be able to get every single model into CC.

Now dontget me wrong, with transports that means that the troops inside are harder to get at, but with all that armor, it actually limits your ability to move around, and time and time again, I have seen IG players over mech, try to spearhead forward, lose one or two transports in one spot which then create armored roadblocks, which forces them to go around, close to table edges and get charged by outflanking stealers. not to mention even with all that melta weaponry and such, they are still hitting on 4s, and that aint so hot.

New IG is hard, very hard, but it def has its soft points.;.

Well I pose -

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232918.page

Tell me how exactly this will get walked over by the mechvets (besides having no troops, but yet, WoN and shizzle yet to be applied!).

@Gameandwatch: Only nids with the Leaping Biomorph gain a 3" threat thingy. Hormagaunts come with it as standard.

I believe most truly mech gaurd are having an easier time with current Nid lists, and notice I say easier, that does not in any way mean victory, I think as I have seen new IG is actually having problems with old nids. STRAIGHT HORDE.

The problem with straight horde is that it straight sucks against just about everybody. Gaunts can't kill tanks.

Agreed, plus it's an over costed horde......

And fearless gaunts kill themselves in CC :(

Razerous wrote:Well I pose -

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232918.page

Tell me how exactly this will get walked over by the mechvets (besides having no troops, but yet, WoN and shizzle yet to be applied!).

@Gameandwatch: Only nids with the Leaping Biomorph gain a 3" threat thingy. Hormagaunts come with it as standard.

Vendettas start on the board or come from reserve and gun down your Carnifexes with little effort (3 TL lascannons...each). The rest of the army moves up into melta range while ordnance blow chunks in your Warrior squads. The gaunts get killed by whatever small arms fire is leftover, which leaves you with nothing to capture objectives. For a mechanized list, only the barbed stranglers are worth worrying about, and IG outranges them.

Company Command Squad 50 Pt.
Captain Holt -
Astropath & Officer of the Fleet 60 Pt.
4 Plasma Guns 60 Pt.
Chimera Transport 55 Pt.
Hull Heavy Flamer & Multi-Laser -
Total Pt. 225

1st Infantry Platoon

Command Squad 30 Pt.
Lieutenant Hausmann -
4 Flamers 20 Pt.
Chimera Transport 55 Pt.
Heavy Flamer & Multi-Laser -
1st Infantry Squad 50 Pt.
Plasma Gun 15 Pt.
Lascannon 20 Pt.
2nd Infantry Squad 50 Pt.
Plasma Gun 15 Pt.
Lascannon 20 Pt.

2nd Infantry Platoon

Command Squad 30 Pt.
Lieutenant Umbridge -
4 Flamers 20 Pt.
Chimera Transport 55 Pt.
Heavy Flamer & Multi-Laser -
1st Infantry Squad 50 Pt.
Plasma Gun 15 Pt.
Lascannon 20 Pt.
2nd Infantry Squad 50 Pt.
Plasma Gun 15 Pt.
Lascannon 20 Pt.
32nd Volscani Penal Legion 80 Pt.
67th Volscani Penal Legion 80 Pt.
Total Points: 710

Vets 70 Pt.
2 Melta-Gunners 20 Pt.
Vedetta Valkyrie 130 Pt.
Vets 70 Pt.
2 Melta-Gunners 20 Pt.
Vendetta Valkyrie 130 Pt.
Total Points: 440 Pt.

Psyker Battle Squad -
Overseer Schwer 20 Pt.
6 Sanctioned Psykers 60 Pt.
Chimera Transport 55 Pt.
Heavy Flamer & Multi-Laser -
Total Points:135


Leman Russ Battle Tank “Obedience” 150 Pt.
Leman Russ Battle Tank “Dutiful” 150 Pt.
Leman Russ Exterminator “Agony” 190 Pt.
Heavy Flamers on all*
Total Points: 490

Total Army Cost: 2000 Pts.


I have totally destroyed every Nid list I have faced. From heavy Genestealers and swarms, to nidzilla. Nids simply cannot effectively deal with armor at long range. For the turns it takes them to walk up the board the Vendettas, Lascannons, Multi-lasers, etc. just chew through their mostrous creatures and the numerous flamers eat up the horde.

I'm not saying that Nids cannot beat Guard, or that either Codex is broken, but Nids certainly have a rough time against Mech Guard.

warriors get killed by heavy flamers. 2 landspeeders will drive up to your warrior squads, hit them with HF's and toast them. Same can be done with 2 chimera's or a valk with rockets pods or hellhounds. The warriors really dont threated vehicles. A few str 6 hits that scatter off most transports 2/3 of the time and will need 5+ to hurt rhinos and 6's to hurt chimeras arent scary.

So it comes down to hitting the warriors with ordnance and flamers and the tyrant and fex's with melta's. Not exactly a difficult premise.

A properly built and played MechVet list has one of it's easiest matchups with any kind of Nid list. Nidzilla is almost an autowin for Mech Vet and Nid Horde is at a sever disadvantage needing either mistakes by the guard player or a very strong advantage in the "luck" factor.

Hordes is one of those armies that MechVet can just sit back and hose with massed firepower as they have so few ways of dealing with armor at range.

Mech Vet definitely has it's weaknesses by Nids are not one of them.

Danny Internets wrote:

Razerous wrote:Well I pose -

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232918.page

Tell me how exactly this will get walked over by the mechvets (besides having no troops, but yet, WoN and shizzle yet to be applied!).

@Gameandwatch: Only nids with the Leaping Biomorph gain a 3" threat thingy. Hormagaunts come with it as standard.

Vendettas start on the board or come from reserve and gun down your Carnifexes with little effort (3 TL lascannons...each). The rest of the army moves up into melta range while ordnance blow chunks in your Warrior squads. The gaunts get killed by whatever small arms fire is leftover, which leaves you with nothing to capture objectives. For a mechanized list, only the barbed stranglers are worth worrying about, and IG outranges them.

See, exactly ^^ this kind of thinking that does my head in.

Carnifexes stay behind the warrior squads, ala cover save. 3TL bs3 lascannons = 2.25 hits = 1.8 wounds = 0.9 unsaved wounds. Thats 0.9/4 wounds.

I do agree ordanence will blow chunks in the warrior squads but cover will be nice - Ill try and ultilize board cover/gaunt cover where I can - But wait, I have the same range as your ordanence. Ill blow chunks in your chimera line. Fexes shake the leman russes where they can & the hive tyrant gingerly runs at the moving chimera aiming to leap frog past the effective 18" melta/plasma range & charge into a squad/tank.

As tanks start dieing, move cover starts spawning so these warrior squads start getting more cover-saves. Those deadly HHF chimera will-not make it into template range. I can suck up silly amounts of wounds with the warrior squads.

Killpoints, ive got the advantage as you have 15, I have 10. Troops.. well, how long can 30 gaunts last .

Boom-nids can deal with armor @ long range. @ 1750-2000pts, I'd include more gaunts, some more gaunts & some hormagaunts @ 14ppm.

Razerous wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:

Razerous wrote:Well I pose -

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/232918.page

Tell me how exactly this will get walked over by the mechvets (besides having no troops, but yet, WoN and shizzle yet to be applied!).

@Gameandwatch: Only nids with the Leaping Biomorph gain a 3" threat thingy. Hormagaunts come with it as standard.

Vendettas start on the board or come from reserve and gun down your Carnifexes with little effort (3 TL lascannons...each). The rest of the army moves up into melta range while ordnance blow chunks in your Warrior squads. The gaunts get killed by whatever small arms fire is leftover, which leaves you with nothing to capture objectives. For a mechanized list, only the barbed stranglers are worth worrying about, and IG outranges them.

See, exactly ^^ this kind of thinking that does my head in.

Carnifexes stay behind the warrior squads, ala cover save. 3TL bs3 lascannons = 2.25 hits = 1.8 wounds = 0.9 unsaved wounds. Thats 0.9/4 wounds.

I do agree ordanence will blow chunks in the warrior squads but cover will be nice - Ill try and ultilize board cover/gaunt cover where I can - But wait, I have the same range as your ordanence. Ill blow chunks in your chimera line. Fexes shake the leman russes where they can & the hive tyrant gingerly runs at the moving chimera aiming to leap frog past the effective 18" melta/plasma range & charge into a squad/tank.

As tanks start dieing, move cover starts spawning so these warrior squads start getting more cover-saves. Those deadly HHF chimera will-not make it into template range. I can suck up silly amounts of wounds with the warrior squads.

Killpoints, ive got the advantage as you have 15, I have 10. Troops.. well, how long can 30 gaunts last .

Boom-nids can deal with armor @ long range. @ 1750-2000pts, I'd include more gaunts, some more gaunts & some hormagaunts @ 14ppm.

i think you may be over-estimating nid shooting. I played nidzilla for a while and know barbed stranglers are not reliable at all for tank busting. Even chimera's you need a 4+ on a hit to do anything and 2/3 of the time your chance's of not even hitting the tank are pretty decent. The one venom cannon can shake one russ a turn. Maybe. 2 shots at bs3 = 1 hit with a 50/50 chance of doing something. And factor in cover for his tanks as well. Its an uphill battle for nids to pop tanks with shooting. You pretty much need great scatters and good penetration rolls, and even then good rolls on the damage table.

I dont think 10 wounds is a silly amount. they are still only T4 and a 4+ save. yes you can abuse wound allocation. But how hard is it to put wounds on a T4 model with an army packed with multilasers, flamers, and ordnance?

I honestly wouldnt waste shots at the fex's till the warriors are dead. Then its melta time.

The tyrant might blow up a single tank and then will be melta'd to death.

battle cannons have double the range of stranglers and 24" on venom cannons. Deathspitters cant even touch them.

I know you want to be optomistic, and god knows I love bugs too, but its just an uphill battle for them against most armies these days.

Razerous wrote:See, exactly ^^ this kind of thinking that does my head in.

Carnifexes stay behind the warrior squads, ala cover save. 3TL bs3 lascannons = 2.25 hits = 1.8 wounds = 0.9 unsaved wounds. Thats 0.9/4 wounds.

I do agree ordanence will blow chunks in the warrior squads but cover will be nice - Ill try and ultilize board cover/gaunt cover where I can - But wait, I have the same range as your ordanence. Ill blow chunks in your chimera line. Fexes shake the leman russes where they can & the hive tyrant gingerly runs at the moving chimera aiming to leap frog past the effective 18" melta/plasma range & charge into a squad/tank.

As tanks start dieing, move cover starts spawning so these warrior squads start getting more cover-saves. Those deadly HHF chimera will-not make it into template range. I can suck up silly amounts of wounds with the warrior squads.

Killpoints, ive got the advantage as you have 15, I have 10. Troops.. well, how long can 30 gaunts last .

Boom-nids can deal with armor @ long range. @ 1750-2000pts, I'd include more gaunts, some more gaunts & some hormagaunts @ 14ppm.

3 Vendettas with 3TL Lascannons stand a really good chance of dropping a carnifex a turn. Even in cover. Also, if the guard player fires his ordnance and flamers at your warriors first, they will no longer be there to screen the Carnifex. So basically, you will get blasted to bits many times over before you even have a chance to do anything. Then they will rinse and repeat every turn.

Not only that, but your tyranid ranged weapons are supbar at cracking tanks, and since the tanks will always be moving, your CC attacks will be less effective as well. Couple that with the fact that if you blow a transport, the guys inside won't even be pinned, and that your fellas will not be locked in combat, and you're going to eat alot of melta/flamer love in the next turn.

Even if you do blow a leman russ or two, you still will have 3 Vendettas flying around and a crap ton of angry BS4 Meltaguns. It's just not a good time for anybody.

It's just not a good match up, any way you look at it.

Ditto,

The Fexes wont be hiding behind the warriors as they will all be dead. Easy target priority, clear warriors, kill fex, rinse repeat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bigtmac68 wrote:Ditto,

The Fexes wont be hiding behind the warriors as they will all be dead. Easy target priority, clear warriors, kill fex, rinse repeat.

Just as a minor example, ive played nids twice with Mech Vet, and in both games I killed every warrior on the board by turn 2, without any effort at all. In both games it was a table clear win by turn 4.

Yes this is isolated, and against an opponent I know well, but of all the test games I have had, only 2x Nob Bikers vs PBS was less of a challenge than Nidzilla.

I do agree ordanence will blow chunks in the warrior squads but cover will be nice - Ill try and ultilize board cover/gaunt cover where I can - But wait, I have the same range as your ordanence. Ill blow chunks in your chimera line. Fexes shake the leman russes where they can & the hive tyrant gingerly runs at the moving chimera aiming to leap frog past the effective 18" melta/plasma range & charge into a squad/tank.

First of all, nothing in your army has the same range as IG ordnance. Not even close. Hell, it's not even that important seeing as you don't have anything in your list that is even remotely threatening to them. Want to shoot S8 that misses more often than not at AV 14? Be my guest.

And how exactly are you going to "blow chunks" in a Chimera line? Your Warrior squads can only hope to glance them, and glances don't kill tanks.

You seem to be way, way too optimistic about Nidzilla's ability to bust tanks, and shoot in general.

Danny Internets wrote:

I do agree ordanence will blow chunks in the warrior squads but cover will be nice - Ill try and ultilize board cover/gaunt cover where I can - But wait, I have the same range as your ordanence. Ill blow chunks in your chimera line. Fexes shake the leman russes where they can & the hive tyrant gingerly runs at the moving chimera aiming to leap frog past the effective 18" melta/plasma range & charge into a squad/tank.

First of all, nothing in your army has the same range as IG ordnance. Not even close. Hell, it's not even that important seeing as you don't have anything in your list that is even remotely threatening to them. Want to shoot S8 that misses more often than not at AV 14? Be my guest.

And how exactly are you going to "blow chunks" in a Chimera line? Your Warrior squads can only hope to glance them, and glances don't kill tanks.

You seem to be way, way too optimistic about Nidzilla's ability to bust tanks, and shoot in general.

Deathspitters have the same range as demolishers. Thats an ordanence weapon. Misconception = bad.

Str 6 death spitter spam should do somthing vs AV12 chimeras. The flyrant, properly equipped, is the only thing to reliably deal with russes. 4 blast templates a turn per squad, four squads. Two sniper fexes & one boom fex. Were pretty even on ranges, actually.

Warriors are easy enough to kill when equipped poorly and/or when equipped for CC.

But - fair enough, I can see what your all saying. Tanks dont die vs glances & nids cant glance/do enough per point of bug, apparently.

Sounds like we need to see some Mech IG vs Nidzilla battle reports......

Looks like I'm gonna have to arrange a game against my IG guy and ask him to go mech. Will try different lists and see how it plays out.

Although from my experience so far against him I must say that fighting battles against IG seems so much harder than it used to be.

Manstein wrote:Sounds like we need to see some Mech IG vs Nidzilla battle reports......

I have an Ard Boyz Practice match v Nidzilla this weekend at a shop with good enough lighting for pics. Ill have a batrep up hopefully by the end of the weekend

Razerous wrote:
Deathspitters have the same range as demolishers. Thats an ordanence weapon. Misconception = bad.

Um, when did I say that the LRBTs had demolisher cannons? Battle cannons have a 72" range. Even the Executioner sports a 36" range. Assumption = bad.

Str 6 death spitter spam should do somthing vs AV12 chimeras. The flyrant, properly equipped, is the only thing to reliably deal with russes. 4 blast templates a turn per squad, four squads. Two sniper fexes & one boom fex. Were pretty even on ranges, actually.

For further information on why relying on glancing hits sucks see your local Necron player, if he hasn't sold his army on eBay yet.

Razerous wrote:See, exactly ^^ this kind of thinking that does my head in.

Carnifexes stay behind the warrior squads, ala cover save. 3TL bs3 lascannons = 2.25 hits = 1.8 wounds = 0.9 unsaved wounds. Thats 0.9/4 wounds.

It could be difficult for carni's to get a cover save from the height of vendettas (especially outflanking ones), even with warriors.

I play Nidzilla, and I concur with the notion that they'll have serious problems with a lot of Mech lists. The nerfing of the VC is a big issue here.

If the big Bugs can get to assault, they can start ruining tanks in a big hurry. People should know this, but in my experience they're often slow to respond. I've torn apart quite a few Land Raiders that didn't know what was coming. S9+2D6 is pretty much auto-Pen on any vehicle.

Nidzilla is still very strong, but with each Codex, and the consistent pattern of Codex creep we've seen over the last few, Nids are slowly fading. Their biggest problems are with mech lists, especially faster ones.