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Snikrot and his commandos have a very nice skill, but how effective are they in open combat after the initial surprise in comparison to Ghaz... Any tactical ideas would be great.

Use both.

Even better, attach Ghazghkull to the Kommandos and ambush with them all.

YMDC forum seems to think that's illegal :(

Dashofpepper wrote:Use both.

Even better, attach Ghazghkull to the Kommandos and ambush with them all.

Pure genius, is there an actual GW rule against this?

Can you actually do that? lol

That seems like a horrible thing to do to your opponent...i like it >:]

I dont see why not. Snikrots special rule says you may hold his unit in reserve, so it seems separate from the infiltrate USP that not only gives you a normal outflank, but is lost when a unit without infiltrate joins...

it is perfectly legal.

Snikrot gives the ability to the unit, just like doc tools from a paint boy.

Ambush =/= infiltrate

therefore... ambushing with ghazzie and some kommandos is fine

It's not entirely clear. There's legitimate arguments for and against that go either way.

There are certainly arguments against it, but if you read the rules, take them at face value without attempting to interpret them...you can certainly do it.

Dashofpepper wrote:There are certainly arguments against it, but if you read the rules, take them at face value without attempting to interpret them...you can certainly do it.

That is plenty good enough for me, and should be good enough for anyone else. Think Snikrot was scary before? now hes got Ghaz with him coming off the opponents edge with him, thats 'ard core

My initial reading assumed the same, the argument against it seems to be that special rules are only confered to ICs if it explicitily says so.

Dashofpepper wrote:There are certainly arguments against it, but if you read the rules, take them at face value without attempting to interpret them...you can certainly do it.

Sure, if you completely ignore the page in the main rulebook that deals with Independent Characters.

rulebook says an IC may begin the game already in a unit, so if hes in the unit with the Kommandos led nby Snikrot, he should ambush with them no? It makes sense to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scratch that just read the rulebook more lmao

yeah Ghaz cant ambush with Snikrot thats a downer :[

Unless Ghaz had the stubborn special rule he could but the rules say that an IC cannot take on the specail rules of a unit he joins so that unit looses those rules

NeedsMoreDakka wrote:rulebook says an IC may begin the game already in a unit, so if hes in the unit with the Kommandos led nby Snikrot, he should ambush with them no? It makes sense to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scratch that just read the rulebook more lmao

yeah Ghaz cant ambush with Snikrot thats a downer :[

Unless Ghaz had the stubborn special rule he could but the rules say that an IC cannot take on the specail rules of a unit he joins so that unit looses those rules

Exactly. That's why its grey. Because the rules don't address what an IC does when it joins a unit, and the unit is granted special rules by another character that joins or is part of that unit.

I think you people should shut up and stop giving zarynterk ideas!

I have to play against him this weekend!

jk lol






besides my infiltration of his inteligence network has been successful so I dont care what secrets you give him.
Oh and Zaryn I got somethin for your fightaboma!

There's some right and wrong things here:

Correct: Independent characters do not benefit from the special rules that a squad has.
Example: Ghazghkull attaching to a squad of kommandos does not gain the infiltrate special ability because the kommandos have it.

Incorrect: Ghazghkull cannot ambush with Snikrot:
Proof: Ghazghkull attaches to the kommando squad and the squad loses infiltrate, per the rules. It even uses the infiltrate rule as an example.


However, Ambush is not a special rule belonging to a squad that would be conferred upon the special character. Instead, Ambush is a special rule owned by a character conferred upon any unit he is attached to. If Ghazghkull joins a kommando squad, they lose infiltrate, but he becomes part of the unit. Snikrot confers Ambush upon EVERYONE in his unit. Including Ghazghkull.

Dashofpepper wrote:There's some right and wrong things here:

Correct: Independent characters do not benefit from the special rules that a squad has.
Example: Ghazghkull attaching to a squad of kommandos does not gain the infiltrate special ability because the kommandos have it.

Incorrect: Ghazghkull cannot ambush with Snikrot:
Proof: Ghazghkull attaches to the kommando squad and the squad loses infiltrate, per the rules. It even uses the infiltrate rule as an example.


However, Ambush is not a special rule belonging to a squad that would be conferred upon the special character. Instead, Ambush is a special rule owned by a character conferred upon any unit he is attached to. If Ghazghkull joins a kommando squad, they lose infiltrate, but he becomes part of the unit. Snikrot confers Ambush upon EVERYONE in his unit. Including Ghazghkull.

Your my hero, knowing i could put one of the nastiest Orks on my opponents edge made my day

Other Ghazghkull facts that people miss:

He has the special rule "Slow and Purposeful" meaning that his movements are always treated as if moving through cover. IE, 2D6.

All independent characters have the special rules "Move through cover" and "skilled rider." The former is what we care about, which grants a 3D6 move through cover.

Thus, Ghazghkull moves to 3D6, not 2D6. Since he's the slowest model when you attach him to anything, the fastest you can go is 3D6. However, Kommandos also have move through cover, which they get to keep when Ghazghkull is with them because he has it too.

Thus, the speed of your Kommandos on the Waaaugh! is 3D6 move + 6" run + 3D6 assault.

Dash, I'd highly recommend not trying that logic this weekend. It will not fly. At best, it is a gray area of the rules in which the most non abusive interpretation would be utelized.

You are coming to a conclusion that is not addressed anywhere in the rulebook.

Sarigar wrote:Dash, I'd highly recommend not trying that logic this weekend. It will not fly. At best, it is a gray area of the rules in which the most non abusive interpretation would be utelized.

You are coming to a conclusion that is not addressed anywhere in the rulebook.

You question his 3d6 Waaagh??? And you call yourself an Ork...

What logic is that Sarigar?

I don't play Ghazghkull + Snikrot, but only because it doesn't fit my playstyle. Its a perfectly viable and absolutely legal tactic.

Or are you talking about Ghazghkull being 3D6 movement? Because if you are...you *really* need to revisit the rulebook.

The subject has been Ghaz/Snikrot, which is what I'm referring to.

My statement is more of a warning if you were planning that tactic w/ Ghaz, it is not allowed at the venue in which you plan on attending. Calling it absolutely legal is your interpretation, others have come to another conclusion.

Sorry, I should have attached your post in which I was responding to make things easier to follow.

There is no issue w/ Ghaz movement as the rules are very clear.

Sarigar, would you please elaborate on why the Ghaz/snikrot tactic is found to be out of bounds?

Basically, the side opposing the idea says this:

Ambush is a logical continuation of infiltrate...it just adds a board edge, and removes the requirement to roll for it. Ghazghkull can't get Infiltrate when he's attached to kommandos, so he can't get Ambush either.

The OTHER side (I tend to agree with) says that it isn't our business to try linking special rules together into relationships, and we should presume that the rules are written the way they are for a reason, in which case ambush is not a continuation of infiltrate....instead, it is its OWN special rule.


You and your opponent will have to sort it out.

man i'm sorry I brought the snikrot thing up back in october! lol It seems like all the cool kids are doing it now

Eh...I don't do it for a couple of reasons:

1. I don't like having an argument in the middle of a game...

2. Reserve rolls are too finnicky.

3. I don't think Ghazghkull should be on foot.

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With that said, if you're going to use kommandos inherent sneakiness, attach a warboss with a powerklaw on a bike. Now you've got a HUGE range when you ambush from the back table edge.

Dashofpepper wrote:Basically, the side opposing the idea says this:

Ambush is a logical continuation of infiltrate...it just adds a board edge, and removes the requirement to roll for it. Ghazghkull can't get Infiltrate when he's attached to kommandos, so he can't get Ambush either.

The OTHER side (I tend to agree with) says that it isn't our business to try linking special rules together into relationships, and we should presume that the rules are written the way they are for a reason, in which case ambush is not a continuation of infiltrate....instead, it is its OWN special rule.


You and your opponent will have to sort it out.

no..that is not the arguement that makes Ghaz (or any IC) Ambushing illegal.

What makes it illegal is pg 48 where it states that "Unless specified in the rule itself ...the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character..."

Ambush does NOT specify that it is conferred to characters. Yes, Snikrot makes a generic statemnt that he conferes Ambush upon a unit, and yes, an IC can be in that unit. However, since ambush is a special rule (the rule does not specify USR) and does not specify that it can be conferred to characters, Ambush cannot be conferred to any IC.

Sorry, but pg. 48 is very clear about it.

Yes, however in this case this is not the unit's special rule, but rather a rule given to the unit which Ghazghkull is now a part of. So unlike with a squad that has infiltrate as part of their profile where he would remove that special rule for being with them, this would still effect him as it is a rule being later added to a squad. Another example would be if Ghazghkull with more than six inches away from a KFF but a boy in his unit wasn't would he remove the KFF from them? The answer would be a resounding no.

Norade wrote:Yes, however in this case this is not the unit's special rule, but rather a rule given to the unit which Ghazghkull is now a part of. So unlike with a squad that has infiltrate as part of their profile where he would remove that special rule for being with them, this would still effect him as it is a rule being later added to a squad. Another example would be if Ghazghkull with more than six inches away from a KFF but a boy in his unit wasn't would he remove the KFF from them? The answer would be a resounding no.

QFT

Dashofpepper wrote:Eh...I don't do it for a couple of reasons:

2. Reserve rolls are too finnicky.



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Lemme ask this then, under the ambush rule it states they can come in after round 1 at anytime from any side of the table. I was under the impression by the codex, that you did not have to roll to bring them in?


*** Nevermind, I just read the description again, you do have to roll... Reading comprehension FTW!