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I have a dilemma.

I've traditionally taken a group of Nobs in every army list....Ghazghkull + 10 individuall equipped nobs inside a vehicle (trukk or battlewagon, depending on point value for the game)...they come out to about 400 points before I account for a transport.

Originally, I used them to take down mega-units and particularly difficult enemy units. For quite some time though, Ghazghkull has been piling out of the transport alone because the nobs would take too much of a beating (even with 'Eavy armor and feel no pain); my intent then is to use Ghazghkull to kill/tie up a particularly difficult unit and have the nobs act as a 2nd round charge unit and pile into whatever combat Ghazghkull is tying up. Theoretically its a nice idea, but it never seems to work out that way.

As I look at my army list, every unit has a purpose...something distinct that it can do and a hole that it fills. I'm not sure my nobs are filling a hole anymore, and wonder if those points would be better spent somewhere else. Thoughts?

Dash i really think people are gunning for nobs to hard this year.I personaly do not have any nobs in my army list and it is very stompy.Think of it this way what can a Nobb kill a regular boy can't? the answer is nothing.(except a LR)Plus a full BW with 20 boys and a nob in it is far more effective at taking down or tying up most if not all units and you have othe points to beef up other aquads or to have another squad. I think in the meta game that is Ard Boyz Nob squads look very good on paper but will get shot to piss as soon as they exit your truck/BW or the truck /BW will get shot to piss to get them footslogging so they can be shot to piss next round.Personaly i belive they are point sinks and those are never good in a proper waaaaagh in my humble opinion.Yes they are ard as nails but not worth it when there are things out there that can do the job better but might be a little more fragile.Take another squad of burnas for example.Not much out there that will stand up to a 30-45 attack power weapon charge. Will you have to be a little more careful with them yes indeed but can they get the job done.Most definatley!!! I have seen the looks on peoples faces when i multiple charge Fexs and they die in one trun or say goodbye assault termies that made the mistake of assaulting something that was within 12 inches of my BW stuffed with burnas.Man if you want priceless take from them something they cherish with some flamethrowers on regular boyz and see them jaws bounce off the table edge.

there is merit to loads of regular boyz as opposed to nobz. 20 boyz will swarm a unit of th/ss terminators and probably bring it down via weight of numbers but nobz will take a beating from the terminators. I particularly am fond of burna boyz. 10-15 templates out of a battlewagon will put the hurt on any infantry. The burna's also do well vs said terminators everyone seems to be spamming with their power weapons as bigmeksprokitz said.

I think the thing with nobz is people expect them so they put counters in their list. Even mass flamers can take down a unit. I know I've killed 8 nobz in one turn with 5 heavy flamers before. I've found playing against orks that the nobz assault something then usually die.

Nobz do have their use's though. They will fare better against seer councils and biker command squads than regular boyz. Also a multicharge on a string of guard tanks with a squad full of powerclaws can be brutal.

I think 10 are too many in the unit. I would look at dropping the entire unit. Try using 6-8. This should give you enough points to get another Trukk squad (or whatever your fancy). See if the smaller squad makes it less painful of a point sink. I think they have great uses, but I don't spend great amounts of points making every single one an individual.

On "paper," my nobs exist to deal with 20 man squads of plague marines, or huge squads of space marines , or Khorne berzerkers where I have to deal with 3+ armor saves and potentially feel no pain, and my nobs all have feel no pain, wound spreading goodness, and 2 wounds apiece themselves. They'll take some lumps, but all will survive, and in return they'll dish out insane death.

In reality, I don't really run into anyone who runs big foot-slogging units of space or chaos marines. Mobs of boyz now get dealt with by burna boyz, as do genestealers and hormogaunts, and the step up from there seems to be terminators, monstrous creatures, HQ retinue choices....and I was always afraid to send in my nobs because they get insta-killed due to double toughness attacks and a plethora of power weapons.

I've taken them out, which costs me a dedicated transport battlewagon. I took out my killa-kans, added another battlewagon, put a squad of 18 boyz in place of the nobz, and my list is basically the same, minus kill-kans and plus Zagstruk and Stormboyz.

Although....I wonder if I should be using Deffkoptas instead of Stormboyz.

I have to chime in on the side of dropping nobs. Most armies have so many things that can kill them after their first charge that it's very, very rare for them to get their value back. And that doesn't even begin to cover if they are forced to walk due to destroying their vehicle where you just dropped 400pts for literally nothing. More boyz!

I've experimentally taken them out. I added a third heavy support battlewagon (instead of my killa-kans) to keep my mechanization up, filled out my other units that were missing models, and added a 18 man boy squad to go in where the nobs used to be, and added Zagstruk and Stormboyz.

Now I wonder if I'm going to run into the same problem with Zagstruk as I did with the Killa-kans....do they really belong in a mechanized list? o.O I'm not sure.

Dash,
I have been dealing with the same problem. This lead me to trying an alternate idea of dropping both my warboss and nob squad.

In there place, I have put Grotsnick and 19 boys in the nobs old BW. It saves me a ton of points and I now have a 20 man strong FNP swarm unit of doom. The only thing I don't like about it it Grotsnicks movement rules. However, I am unsure if Grotsnick makes the BW move towards the closest unit or not, since he is just a passenger that is hopping a ride, and is not in the same unit as the BW...I need to get some clarification on that.

Either way, though, Gortsnick and 19 boys has proven to be as killy and durable as my old nob+warboss unit for far less points.

I used to use Grotsnik + 19 'Ard Boyz in a battlewagon, but I've shifted away from that.

You put him in the nobs' old battlewagon....did they have a heavy support or a dedicated transport battlewagon? Hopefully you didn't keep their transport wagon.

hehe... my only heavies are my BWs.

I spend far too many points on my 30 Lootas to use anny other heavy slots

I think that if you're going to make a shooty list, putting 3 squads of Lootas into 3 battlewagons, a Mek with a KFF and Grot oilers in the middle one, Rokkit Launchas on the battlewagons, and you park them in a \ | / formation in your rear to present front armor to the whole table (or a 3+ cover save to the middle battlewagon if people are shooting at it from the side), you've got a solid base for your army. You can reach across the whole table, and beyond that you can add in...whatever you like.

I think you need to go just the other direction. Imagine:

HQ - Warboss
HQ - Warboss
Elite- 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Elite- 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Elite- 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Troop - 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Troop - 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Heavy Support - 10 Flash Gitz
Heavy Support - 10 Flash Gitz
Heavy Support - 10 Flash Gitz

I don't know how many points that is, but it's a lot of nobs.

In defense of the Nobz, I have only recently begun running a Kustom Force Field Mek regularly, and as such I centered my army around 2 teams of Warboss + 10 Nobz in Trukks. I will definitely say that there are things that I'd rather not charge with them (I regularly chant to myself "Nobz don't charge Termies" before tournaments), but there is just so much utility to having those squads that I have a hard time getting rid of them. While a mob of 30 Boyz led by a PK Nob can certainly bring down a Carnifex or a Defiler or the like if given sufficient time, sometimes you have to be able to run through a big nasty creature/unit in one turn, and that's when I call upon the Nobz. I still run one Trukk full in almost any game, because one of two things happens: A) my opponent doesn't respect them or loses sight of them and doesn't ask which unit is in that Trukk, they tear through a unit or four, and then the survivors go take an objective; or B) Remembering what happened last time, my opponent dedicates everything they can to killing those Nobz, while the remainder of my army advances relatively unscathed.

I'm not saying everybody has to run them, as it sounds as though some people are beginning to tailor lists against the standard Nobz as well as Bikerz (haven't used since I realized how broken they were while proxying), but if you've just got to have a big punch in your list, this one of the best places to find it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RxGhost wrote:I think you need to go just the other direction. Imagine:

HQ - Warboss
HQ - Warboss
Elite- 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Elite- 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Elite- 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Troop - 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Troop - 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Heavy Support - 10 Flash Gitz
Heavy Support - 10 Flash Gitz
Heavy Support - 10 Flash Gitz

I don't know how many points that is, but it's a lot of nobs.

Rough figuring, you're looking at around 1800 points before any upgrades whatsoever, 2500-3000 once you start handing out 'eavy armor, Power Klaws, Waaghh Banners, More Dakka, Painboyz for the Gitz, etc. Also, the Gitz wouldn't be that effective on foot. Beautiful start to a novelty force for a Planetstrike assault though!

Alerian wrote:Dash,
I have been dealing with the same problem. This lead me to trying an alternate idea of dropping both my warboss and nob squad.

In there place, I have put Grotsnick and 19 boys in the nobs old BW. It saves me a ton of points and I now have a 20 man strong FNP swarm unit of doom. The only thing I don't like about it it Grotsnicks movement rules. However, I am unsure if Grotsnick makes the BW move towards the closest unit or not, since he is just a passenger that is hopping a ride, and is not in the same unit as the BW...I need to get some clarification on that.

Either way, though, Gortsnick and 19 boys has proven to be as killy and durable as my old nob+warboss unit for far less points.

The Ork FAQ answers the Grotsnik inside a vehicle question.

Grotsnik in a vehicle isn't *too* bad because with a 13" movement, folks can't lead him blindly around the board.

The problem I have with Grotsnik is finding a "distinct use" for him in my army. a squad of boyz with 4+ armor and 4+ feel no pain need a purpose; ideally it would be assaulting into a big blob of MEQs or fellow Orks, or something to put those 4+ and 4+ saves together. I just don't see that kind of army often enough to justify it. Small units and mechanized troops can be dealt with in other ways, and no one ever seems to offer up 20-30 MEQs in a squad for me to assault.

Dash, you might be missing that unit if drop them and then get paired up against dual Seer Council Eldar.

While you can whittle away at 3+/4+ with re-rerolled saves, you can't really depend on Boyz to do it because they take massive casualties before being getting their attacks, then tons more casualties from combat resolution if they don't break. And mechanized armies can't afford to ignore them since they're all dishing out multiple S9 attacks.

Not sure exactly what tools Orks normally use to deal with this threat, but a Nob unit equipped for exploiting wound allocation seems like the best bet.

RxGhost wrote:I think you need to go just the other direction. Imagine:

HQ - Warboss
HQ - Warboss
Elite- 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Elite- 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Elite- 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Troop - 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Troop - 10 Nobs w/Painboy n'Trukk
Heavy Support - 10 Flash Gitz
Heavy Support - 10 Flash Gitz
Heavy Support - 10 Flash Gitz

I don't know how many points that is, but it's a lot of nobs.

It's 1945 points without upgrades. What a cool list! 186 wounds! Of course you'd have to flesh it out with plenty o' upgrades

Sarigar wrote:

Alerian wrote:Dash,
I have been dealing with the same problem. This lead me to trying an alternate idea of dropping both my warboss and nob squad.

In there place, I have put Grotsnick and 19 boys in the nobs old BW. It saves me a ton of points and I now have a 20 man strong FNP swarm unit of doom. The only thing I don't like about it it Grotsnicks movement rules. However, I am unsure if Grotsnick makes the BW move towards the closest unit or not, since he is just a passenger that is hopping a ride, and is not in the same unit as the BW...I need to get some clarification on that.

Either way, though, Gortsnick and 19 boys has proven to be as killy and durable as my old nob+warboss unit for far less points.

The Ork FAQ answers the Grotsnik inside a vehicle question.

1. The Ork FAQ isn't official, GW even says so. (only the errata is official)
2. The Ork FAQ speaks of following the "spirit of the rule" about Grotsnik, so it is obviously speaking of RAI instead of RAW.
3. GW has never clarified the RAW of Grotsnik and transports

Because of these three things, I would like an official RAW clarification about Grotsnik and transports, as the Ork FAQ isn't worth the paper that it is printed out on, regarding this isssue.

Danny Internets wrote:Dash, you might be missing that unit if drop them and then get paired up against dual Seer Council Eldar.

While you can whittle away at 3+/4+ with re-rerolled saves, you can't really depend on Boyz to do it because they take massive casualties before being getting their attacks, then tons more casualties from combat resolution if they don't break. And mechanized armies can't afford to ignore them since they're all dishing out multiple S9 attacks.

Not sure exactly what tools Orks normally use to deal with this threat, but a Nob unit equipped for exploiting wound allocation seems like the best bet.

I haven't run into these before, but if they have initiative powerweapons, I'd be afraid to charge my nobs in there anyway. My tactic here would likely involve 15 burna boyz dropping 15 templates out of a vehicle onto the seer council to cause...a lot of wounds I hope, followed by Ghazghkull declaring a Waaaugh! and assaulting the seer council singlehandedly to try killing the Farseer, while relying on his 2+ invulnerable save to keep him alive until the next turn when a unit of boyz can countercharge into the back of the seer council.

I don't know NEARLY enough to mathhammer this one out, but if there are 10 bikes, and I can get half of them under one template (5) that's 75 hits. 38 of them will wound. The seer council will get to take rerollable 3+ saves, and will fail 33% of them (12.54, say 12), and reroll to fail 33% of those (4 dead bikes).

I'm sure that I'd pour some other dakka in there as well, and if they don't have power fists, you can probably count on me tank shocking the bikes to try clumping them up before I burna them. When Ghazghkull adds his two cents to the matter on the charge, out of 7 attacks, he should get 5 hits, 4 wounds, of which 1-2 will fail rerolled invulnerable saves.

Mathhammer being what it is of course, but I don't think nobs would want to suicide into that mess - I typically don't take cybork bodies on my nobs....5+ doesn't proc enough to justify it. Except for yesterday when I came up against a Wych cult dark eldar army, and Ghazghkull faced off against Lelith and made 3/3 5+ invulnerable saves. That was a fun round of combat.

seer council on bikes are warlocks with 2 WS5 Init5 attacks that always wound on a 2+ and are not power weapons. The have T4 and a 3+/4++ re-rollable save. They are also on jetbikes so move fast so catching them with burna's might be tricky. Oh and they also count as S9 vs vehicles and a few of them likely pack heavy flamers. Most lists I've seen for ard boyz run 2 squads of 10 with the farseer.

Unless the council player is a tard or mess's up bad he isnt going to put them anywhere near a wagon full of burna's. Nobz are probably your best bet against them with a 4+ and then feel no pain are one of the units that survive's them the best in the game, and prolly only second to meganobs with mad dok G in the ork codex. The council is something you will most likely see at the finals for sure so possibly keeping the nobz for that matchup is worth it. Although with how rock/paper/scissors things are you could just hope to not run against them and deal with the other armies you will likely face.

Don't forget that most people give them at least a few Singing Spears too, which gives them a S9 shot at 12 (18?) inches. They are superb for cracking transports and then messing up whatever happens to fall out. And most of the unit comes equipped with heavy flamers as well (in the form of psychic powers). They are basically any non-MEQ's worst nightmare.

Me personally.I know you guys ave looked at my list and maybe you haven't but here it is.

HQ:Big Mek w/KFF
HQ:Big Mek w/KFF
Troopeffdread CCWx3,Scorcha
TroopeffDread CCWx3,Scorcha
Troop:30 Boyz nob PK,BP
Troop:30 Boyz nob PK,BP
Troop:30 Boyz nob PK,BP
Elite: 15 kommandos w/Snikrot
Elite: 14 Lootas
Fast:4 Deffkooptas TL Rokkits
Fast:20 Stormboyz w/Zagstruk
Heavy: 9 Killa kans w/Kustom Mega Blastas

As you can see no nobz there and the list performs perfectly.I have more versatility with Kans and they are cheaper than nobz and with KFF projected onto all my walkers then they are just like having feel no pain pretty much.Only thing is i am seriously considering changing my list to something like this.B/C snik zag and deffkooptas didnt do anything in the first round of the tourney.They also seem like a point sink to me? Can i get some suggestions on what to do or is it fine.

Amended list

HQ: Ghaz
HQ: Big Mek w/KFF
Troop : Deffdread CCWx3,Scorcha
Troop30 Boyz nob PK,BP
Troop30 Boyz nob PK,BP
Troop30 Boyz nob PK,BP
Troop20 Ard Boyz nob PK,BP
Troop 5 MegaNobz in BW
Elite 10 Burna boyz
Heavy 9 Killa Kans w Kustom MEga Blastas

Very tenative and need to play around a bit more but what you think Dash.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgot there are 14 Lootas still in the ammended list

Your ammended list is almost my current list BigMekSprokitz. Except I have a truck of Nobz replacing some some of you boyz, and my kanz are 3 rokkitz and 3 grotzookas. Why did you go with all KMB kanz?

Dashofpepper wrote:
I haven't run into these before, but if they have initiative powerweapons, I'd be afraid to charge my nobs in there anyway) ....+more

+

Khornatedemon wrote:The have T4 and a 3+/4++ re-rollable save. They are also on jetbikes so move fast so catching them with burna's might be tricky.

Witchblades always wound on 2+ and count as triple strength vs vehicles (so str9). Warlocks are I4 but with the enhance passive psychic power they become I5 (and ws5, from ws4). This guy (whom is upgraded to have this passive power) can always get killed as a farseer squad will be loosing casulties and they will be taking ALOT of hits so one unlucky allocation may kill him off.

Anyways, Big Choppas cause Instant Death on T3(4) (I think) so they can gib the farseer (not that many/any of those will probably be allocated onto the farseer). But yes, those nobs with 4+ saves and FNP wiill not let a warlock squad go. They are vunerable to sweeping advance (you and the eldar) so be careful.

Template weapons are the best weapon to shoot at jetbikes. Sadly, thats the first battlewagon I'd go after, If I ran jetbikers. But ,if they want to, they can avoid you all day. A decent larger council squad will also equip a couple singing spears (with one on the farseer) which are 12" str9 assault 1 (in terms of anti-tank) weapons. They could easily pop & charge a burna squad inside its battlewagon.

I'll keep a note in the back of my head if I run up against jetbike seer councils; I'll have to keep my burna boy battlewagon protected.

I would definitely stick with a squad of ten nobz in a battlewagon and one should be upgraded to a painboy for the FNP and cybork body throughout the unit. I would take five of the nobz with power klaws and make the unit entirely complex. Ghaz should ride in another battlewagon so you don't have all your eggs in one basket. Basically the nobz are the same unit as nob bikers sans bikes. They can crack enemy uber units and I think you need a unit like to adequately handle the current metagame. Without the bikes but traded for a battlewagon it's an expensive unit but it can pay dividends in spades.

Dashofpepper wrote:I'll keep a note in the back of my head if I run up against jetbike seer councils; I'll have to keep my burna boy battlewagon protected.

Thats if the sqaud is fielding more than 2-3 singing spears (where one ideally is on the BS5 farseer whom only needs 2+ to hit).

If it isnt fielding singing spears... you may loose the battlewagon to a plethora of witchblade attacks.. and you may loose a few models to the inevitable vehicle EXPLODES result.. but if the squad isnt pinned.. you will do more damage to that squad than the 150pt-ish burna boys & 100pt-ish battlewagon cost.


....Well, probably..

Razerous wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:I'll keep a note in the back of my head if I run up against jetbike seer councils; I'll have to keep my burna boy battlewagon protected.

Thats if the sqaud is fielding more than 2-3 singing spears (where one ideally is on the BS5 farseer whom only needs 2+ to hit).

If it isnt fielding singing spears... you may loose the battlewagon to a plethora of witchblade attacks.. and you may loose a few models to the inevitable vehicle EXPLODES result.. but if the squad isnt pinned.. you will do more damage to that squad than the 150pt-ish burna boys & 100pt-ish battlewagon cost.


....Well, probably..

and any player who charges his seers into a battlewagon full of burna's deserve's to have them all die :p

Alerian wrote:

Sarigar wrote:

Alerian wrote:Dash,
I have been dealing with the same problem. This lead me to trying an alternate idea of dropping both my warboss and nob squad.

In there place, I have put Grotsnick and 19 boys in the nobs old BW. It saves me a ton of points and I now have a 20 man strong FNP swarm unit of doom. The only thing I don't like about it it Grotsnicks movement rules. However, I am unsure if Grotsnick makes the BW move towards the closest unit or not, since he is just a passenger that is hopping a ride, and is not in the same unit as the BW...I need to get some clarification on that.

Either way, though, Gortsnick and 19 boys has proven to be as killy and durable as my old nob+warboss unit for far less points.

The Ork FAQ answers the Grotsnik inside a vehicle question.

1. The Ork FAQ isn't official, GW even says so. (only the errata is official)
2. The Ork FAQ speaks of following the "spirit of the rule" about Grotsnik, so it is obviously speaking of RAI instead of RAW.
3. GW has never clarified the RAW of Grotsnik and transports

Because of these three things, I would like an official RAW clarification about Grotsnik and transports, as the Ork FAQ isn't worth the paper that it is printed out on, regarding this isssue.

Wow, umm, good luck with that. If you can get wishes, throw in a wish for a million dollars for me while you're at it Aside from some stealth printings of past codexes, I've not seen GW come out with official erratta as opposed to FAQ's. Any place or event I've attended has abided by the FAQs from GW. If you don't, hey its as much your game as it is mine. But, I don't think your arguement would go over well in most (if not all) organized events.

You really need to read the actual rulings by GW.

There is official errata at the beginning of each FAQ, listed as just that "Errata". Those are official, according to GW.

GW then goes on to say on their website that while the Errata is official, the FAQ section is simply the "house rules" (their term, not mine), that the studio uses.

I don't think that it is asking too much for GW to step up and make more of their rulings official "errata". It is simply a matter of choosing where to place the information.

Also, I know several events that utilize the GW Errata sections, but forego the use of the GW FAQ sections, since they are admittedly simply the GW studio's "house rules", and instead choose to publish their own FAQ for their events.