'Ard Boyz Vulkan/Bikes Take II

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**Gornall**

I'm trying to refine my Vulkan with Bikes list for 'Ard Boyz Round 2 (and 2500 point games in general) and would like to get some feedback:

HQ
Vulkan
Bike Captain with Relic Blade

Troops
Bike Squad with MGx2, Meltabombs, and MM AB (5 Models Total)
Bike Squad with MGx2, Meltabombs, and MM AB (5 Models Total)
Bike Squad with MGx2 and MM AB (5 Models Total)
Tactical Squad with Flamer/MM and Rhino
Tactical Squad with Flamer/Plasma Cannon and Rhino

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad (5) with TH/SSx5 with LRC and MM
Ironclad Dreadnought with HFx2 and Drop Pod

Fast Attack
Landspeeder Squadron with MM/HF x2
Landspeeder Squadron with MM/HF x2

Heavy Support (where I'm expecting the most disagreements)
Predator with Lascannon Sides
Predator with Lascannon Sides

The bikes are designed to chase down transports/fast vehicles and pop them before charging the occupants. The Predators are in there to try and deal with light transports before they get out of the opponent's deployment zone and deal with MCs at a safe distance. I'm thinking that I might do better by dropping them for another MM/HF Landspeeder Squadron or even a LRR to carry one of the Tactical Squads (and probably Vulkan). The Ironclad is in there to flame/tarpit hordes/backline shooters such as Lootas or Broadside Teams or make moving troops onto an objective a risky proposition. I'm up for any suggestions.

**Fearspect**

Have you thought about not bothering with tactical squads at all and maybe making just 4x Bike Squads?

Maybe even give the Bike Captain a guard and you have two solid CC units.

I don't think the lone Dreadnought fits in this list.

What about something like:

-2x Tactical Squad
-Dreadnought
-2x Predator

+1 Bike Squad of five models
and
+Either command squad for Bike Captain or another Terminator/LRC combo.

I just feel that having an army of mostly forward moving elements mixed with two predators you want to sit well back don't have great cohesion.

**Redwunz**

I thinking a few changes. Drop the preds for a LRC w/MM. Make sure you have a homer on your drop pod. I probably drop the tacs for another Bike squad like Fearspect suggested. I definatly would drop the relic blade on the captain for a TH, and he goes with a bike squad, vulcan goes with the termies in the LRC and any spare points go to add a guy or two to that squad and add PWs to the bike sgts. My buddy runs a 1750 list like that and it's beyond tough. I have to ask though you're not in rd 2 on the west coast are you?

**Khornatedemon**

I feel at this point level you want at least 2 heavy hitters in the marine list. Either 2x terminators or terminators and the bike command squad. I've been running 2 terminator squads in redeemers and they are amazing. I'm going to be trying out using a bike command squad in addition to them as well for the second round. Its a risky list but seems brutal enough to work.

I think the single dread is pointless and easy kill points for most armies. Dropping dreads need at least 1 melta on them, preferably 2 in the case of an ironclad. Podding and hitting an infantry squad, if there's even one to hit, with 2 flamers isnt as productive as hitting a tank with a melta. I've found loota's to not be an issue for me although i run with 2 land raiders which helps that, and broadsides are going to laugh at flamers with their 2+ saves.

I personally like the preds even though I know many people disagree with the configuration for some reason. It is a great transport popper. But the question that begs to be answered is do you need more transport poppers in this list? I dont feel you do.

I tried mixing around bikes and tacticals and found i didnt like it. I think once you get down how to use the bikers properly they are superior to the rhino's in this type of list. I'm also fond of combi-flamers in the bike squads in case of horde's or large squads.

**Dracos**

I'm going to agree that the single ironclad and dual pred looks a bit out of place. The single transport popper should be enough, maybe replace those (dread and 1 pred) with a couple vindicators? Tactically you can try and use the vindicators to keep units from coming out directly at your bikes (or brutally punish them for doing so). Beef up the termis with leftover points.

**Fearspect**

If everything has multiple melta weapons and is ultra-manoeuverable, how do you justify even spending 2 points on a 'transport popper'?

**Gornall**

My concern with using just the Bikes as troops is two-fold: difficult/dangerous terrain and staying power/model count. 20ish Bike models (especially ones that are going to probably be in melta range a lot of the time) just don't seem like they would be able to survive until the end of the game to worry about taking/contesting objectives, especially if it is a terrain heavy board. A Tactical Squad in a hull-down Rhino is a lot harder to move off an objective than a squad of Bikes, IMO. This is offset by the extra KP I guess. Can I really get away without Tact squads? How many total bikes would people suggest for that?

I was planning on trying to get the ICD stuck in (aka the Broadsides) ASAP after Podding in, but since everyone seems to think it's a bust, I'll probably end up dropping it. TBH, at 185 points, it seemed a little hit or miss for me.

If I drop the Preds, do I need more MMs (Probably Speeders) to compensate for the lost firepower?

I agree about the need for 2 heavy-hitting units. Before I was using a full Bike Squad, but the Command Squad does sound like it might work. I thought about adding a LRR with Termies, but to make that work I was afraid that without more armor on the board they'd get focused and destroyed too fast.

**Khornatedemon**

I've been playing a list with 25 bikers as my only troops and have yet to be reduced below 2 squads over the course of any practice games or the prelims. Most of the time I have 3 left as I tend to use 1 or 2 as bait to lure units out of transports so my terminators can hit them.

Practice with the bikers. Once you learn how to use them right they become much more survivable than you think. Make sure they only go after things they can take on and support them well. I tend to use them in packs. 1 LRR and 2-3 bike squads and the other LR with the rest.

Their speed is their main advantage, dont forget to use it.

**The10thnazgul**

I disagree with your HS (see you were expecting it

) I think the cheap 85 point AC/HB's are awsome for points and firepower. You have enought anti tank in your list, and those preads will provide excellent horde support, and light vehicle duty. Oh and free points. They are possibly my favorite config in the marine book. Just my thoughts.

**Gornall**

Okay... here are some more ideas. I'm somewhat limited in models (25 Bikers is probably out of my reach atm), so I will probably have to keep at least one Tactial in for now.

HQ
Vulkan
Bike Captain with Relic Blade
Command Squad with Champion, SS, PW, and TH

Troops
Bike Squad with MGx2, Meltabombs, and MM AB (5 Models Total)
Bike Squad with MGx2, Meltabombs, and MM AB (5 Models Total)
Bike Squad with MGx2, Meltabombs, and MM AB (5 Models Total)
Tactical Squad with Flamer/MM and Rhino
Tactical Squad with Flamer/Plasma Cannon and Rhino

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad (5) with TH/SSx5 with LRC and MM

Fast Attack
Landspeeder Squadron with MM/HF x2
Landspeeder Squadron with MM/HF x2
Landspeeder Squadron with MM/HF x2

OR

HQ
Vulkan
Bike Captain with Relic Blade

Troops
Bike Squad with MGx2, Meltabombs, and MM AB (5 Models Total)
Bike Squad with MGx2, Meltabombs, and MM AB (5 Models Total)
Bike Squad with MGx2, Meltabombs, and MM AB (5 Models Total)
Tactical Squad with Flamer/MM and Rhino

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad (5) with TH/SSx5 with LRC and MM
Terminator Assault Squad (6) with TH/SSx5

Fast Attack
Landspeeder Squadron with MM/HF x2
Landspeeder Squadron with MM/HF x2
Landspeeder Squadron with MM/HF x2

Heavy Support
Landraider Redeemer w MM

**bigtmac68**

The second list is very close to what I would run if I did not have to spend all my bonus on a trip to the phillipines to meet my finace's parents.

I have not tested it yet but I know knornatedeamon is working a simillar list. Two assault termi squads plus the bike command squad should be very brutal and should give you the ability to go toe to toe with seer council and ghazzy mech orcs.

good luck with it, I cant wait to hear how well these sallie bike lists do at the regionals

**Gornall**

I haven't quite figured out how to fit a Command Squad in with 2 Terminator Assault Squads. If I replaced the Tactical Squad in the second list with a 5 man Flamerx2 Bike Squad, dropped the Meltabombs, dropped a LS Squad, and dropped the extra Terminator, then that would leave me with 220 points, which is just enough to buy a Bike Command Squad with a Company Champion, but no other upgrades. Is that going to be killy enough to make it worth taking?

**Khornatedemon**

Gornall wrote:I haven't quite figured out how to fit a Command Squad in with 2 Terminator Assault Squads. If I replaced the Tactical Squad in the second list with a 5 man Flamerx2 Bike Squad, dropped the Meltabombs, dropped a LS Squad, and dropped the extra Terminator, then that would leave me with 220 points, which is just enough to buy a Bike Command Squad with a Company Champion, but no other upgrades. Is that going to be killy enough to make it worth taking?

The army is really slim when you fit all 3 in. It's 2500 on the dot.

Vulkan

Bike capt w/ relic blade

biker command squad w/ 4 meltaguns, 4 SS's, 3 Lightning claws and 1 TH

2x 5 man terminator squads

2x redeemers w/ MM's and EA

3x 5 man bike squads with all melta's and the MM ab

2x2 MM/HF speeders

It's incredibly small but hits like a ton of bricks. This is a real finesse army. Sadly I havent had a chance to get a game in since the prelims to try it out yet and wont till monday.

**Gornall**

I can see where that would hit pretty dang hard, but as you said, there seems to be little margin for error. I would love to watch it in action, but I just don't think I have the cahones to run it myself.

**Redwunz**

The danger of a list like this is if you lose something early, say a bike or termie squad you run a very real risk of getting overwhelmed. With so few targets, particularly vs a Tau or shooty IG list run by a competent player you really need to maximise your movement and bury some units in CC ASAP. I've played vs Bike/Vulcan lists 3 times, all three were total routs. One for my buddy and two for me (I do play shooty IG). I guess the bottom line is whatever you take make sure you know how to get the most out of it 'cause every unit has to count.

**Gornall**

I guess go big or go home. Which is pretty much what you're looking for in a larger tournament. Close wins might as well be losses if you're trying to place. I'm going to proxy some this weekend and see how it goes.

**Gornall**

After getting some games in over the weekend, I'm gonna give this list a try:

HQ
Vulkan
Bike Captain with Relic Blade and Artificer Armor
Biker Command Squad with Champion, PW, LC, TH, and SSx2

Troops
Bike Squad with MGx2 and MM AB (6 models total)
Bike Squad with MGx2 and MM AB (6 models total)
Bike Squad with MGx2 and MM AB (6 models total)

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad TH/SS
Terminator Assault Squad TH/SS
LRR with MM

Fast Attacks
Landspeeder Squadron (2) HF/MM
Landspeeder Squadron (2) HF/MM

Heavy
LRC w MM

I added an extra Biker to each of the troop squads to give them an extra body. It's still super light on bodies, but I think it'll be fun to play.

**Fearspect**

Do you have the +10 points to upgrade the redeemer into a crusader?

Other than that, I love this list, and wish I saw it and other similar ones before I started buying stuff for my Salamanders - which took a different path.

**Gornall**

I'm actually tempted to drop one of the extra Bikes and turn the Captain into Khan, just for Furious Charge and Hit and Run. However, I'd be losing the Relic Blade and the Artificer Armor, which would hurt. I wish I had more time to playtest, but at least 'Ard Boyz has most of the people in my club running 2500 point lists, so I intend to keep running it for a while.

**Gornall**

Now that the scenarios have been released, I am debating between three basic lists. I decided against the Command Squad version because people were simply blasting my troops.

The first is a 5x5man Bike Squads as Troops. I really liked the idea of this one until I saw the 3 KPs per troop choice.

The second has 4 Bike Squads (one 9-man, 3 6-man) to limit the pain of Scenario 1 while still being able to split into 5 squads for the other missions. I also thought about making them all 6-man squads and using the points to pick up an extra LS for one of the squadrons.

The third is 3 Bike Squads (9-man and 2 6-man) with a MG/MM Tactical Squad in Rhino. I think this one would give up the fewest KPs, but loses mobility and MGs.

**Xav**

Gornall i think you should realy realy consider Khan, i mean its outflanking landraiders! Thats gonna own, escially with furious charge and hit and run.

You dont wanna get your bikes stick in CC so Hit n run would be great.

**DarthDiggler**

Your original list was just fine. I feel you need those long range Lascannons to deal with Necrons. 3 Monoliths and a Deceiver would seem to own your newer lists while the Lascannon Preds give you a chance to down a Monolith or two before it is to late.

**Timmah**

I like the original list.

However I would swap the 2 preds
for
3 predators with AC/HB sponsons.

I believe you should have enough pts to make the swap without losing anything else.

**ttowns**

The last list looks soild some thing along the lines of way im making. I dont like the random lighting claws in the command sqaud keep it 4 TH's you could also drop the LRR with the termies and have a sergent's with becon's to get them termies into close combat. i think one of the mission's is night fighting all game so close combat is gonna be key drop LR's add 1 more termie squad and some more bikes(if you dont have more bikes more speeders).

With those changes made its a list i would run. games are gonna be quick

**Regwon**

Your newer lists are better.

Keep in mind that bike cant move up and down ruins, so a savvy opponent will place as many objectives can he can on the upper levels of ruins so that you cant capture them. I think that its worth having at least one tactical squad to deal with this, possibly two.

**Elessar**

List vastly improved by losing that obsolete Plasma Cannon.

Also, dual LR is the only way, a single gets munched.

As Fearspect said though, try to get 2 Crusaders, instead of a Redeemer.

**DarthDiggler**

You auto lose to 3 Monoliths with the newer lists. People seem to be bringing you to an overkill status on close range melta and flame damage, while completely taking away your ability to deal damage at range or damage Monoliths. The point about bikes not being able to go up levels is an important one. Your 20 foot troops are important in that regard. Don't take away options in your army. You must stay diverse to succeed.

**Elessar**

I do think Tacticals could be important - but then again, not if you table the opponent, or place any objectives yourself.

DarthDiggler, the Force must be weak with you if you think Monoliths are a threat to ANY list.

Necrons aren't even slightly Competitive.

**Julnlecs**

Hes a veteran he knows what hes talkin when he talks about how hard it is to face three monoliths. Oh wait dont necrons phase out.

**Elessar**

Now, if they didn't Phase Out...well, Monoliths and indeed C'Tan would be insane. As it is, using them is insane.