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http://newsbusters.org/blogs/p-j-gladnick/2009/07/27/obama-2004-bush-rushed-legislationthrough-congress-without-allowing-ti

I just wanted to hear any thought on this story. I am not a fan of the new health care plan, mostly because we simply cannot afford it. The plan is expected to cost $1.5 trillion, which is just a God awful amount of money. Oh, and don't forget this is just an estimate, it will undoubtedly be more expensive. I am not saying socialized health care can't work, it just can't work in the US. There are too many people here and we are too in debt to be able to run this type of plan. Also, the prospect of more free social services will only help to drive up the major problem of illegal immigration, which is among other things a major national security issue. But the real issue here is this, should we tolerate Pres. Obama's blatant hypocrisy?

What!!!

Has the Obama health plan been passed already?

Ahhaha... i totally see it . 2012 indeed will come, from the total collapse of world economy , thanks Obama! money doesnt grow on tree sir!

Who says you can't afford it?

This is paid for by the Tax Payer. So yes Taxes will go up. But think of the money you WON'T be spending on now non-compulsory Medical Insurance?

How much is your typical premium a month? How much do comapnies pay/contribute?

All that money freed up.

But yes. Lets all put on our Right Wing Blinkers and deny that anything even vaguely socialist could possibly be for the better.

Hypocrisy just isn't that big of a deal. Everyone changes their mind at some point. Show me even one honest politician. The people just need to reclaim their power so when stupid crap happens we can stop it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Who says you can't afford it?

This is paid for by the Tax Payer. So yes Taxes will go up. But think of the money you WON'T be spending on now non-compulsory Medical Insurance?

How much is your typical premium a month? How much do comapnies pay/contribute?

All that money freed up.

But yes. Lets all put on our Right Wing Blinkers and deny that anything even vaguely socialist could possibly be for the better.

What, the insurance I or my immediate family can't afford? I'll be saving a whole lot...

And also, there will be more availability of preventive care, which will reduce emergency room visits. Even I'm up for that, and I have to be shoved into a giant pet taxi to be dragged to the doctor.

No, we should not. Obama hasn't even been in office one year and he wants to increase the deficit by trillions of dollars. And don't give me any of that "He inherited it from bush" crap. Bush was a crappy president, we all know that, but Obama's president now. It's his problem.

Yes and Obama had absolutely no idea how bad it was until he got there... I believe it actually. You are right though, it is his problem, and I hope he will take some positive action.

Fact remains that Obama is not the only people we need to be looking at here.

warpcrafter wrote:And also, there will be more availability of preventive care, which will reduce emergency room visits. Even I'm up for that, and I have to be shoved into a giant pet taxi to be dragged to the doctor.

If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

I was greatly surprised when I found out the US DIDN'T have a national health plan. I just assumed all first world countries had that basic service, along with the police and the government. Boy was I wrong....

rubiksnoob wrote:No, we should not. Obama hasn't even been in office one year and he wants to increase the deficit by trillions of dollars. And don't give me any of that "He inherited it from bush" crap. Bush was a crappy president, we all know that, but Obama's president now. It's his problem.

... Were you asleep last year, or is that selective conservative memory acting up again? That's like saying "I ran up a huge tab at the bar sitting in that seat, but I've gotten up and walked away; it's the fault of whomever sits down there next." Utter crap, and you know it.

How about you go look at how things would have gone if Obama HADN'T acted; there's some nice projections out there, from a variety of sources. Wrecked economy + aging populace + out-of-control healthcare costs = a heck of a lot more damage than a trillion.

... Were you asleep last year, or is that selective conservative memory acting up again? That's like saying "I ran up a huge tab at the bar sitting in that seat, but I've gotten up and walked away; it's the fault of whomever sits down there next." Utter crap, and you know it.

WRONG!

Regardless of 8 years of Bush's shenanigans (what else can you call it?) Obama has a duty to his job as president of the U.S. to grin and bear it (huge smile always helped, eh?). He is the last person in the nation that can whine, he pretty much lost whining rights when he went into office. There isn't two sides to this, there is now and now.

I love metaphors because they just fall to pieces to easily .

Like that time when someone asked if I was the president and I said "No, I am just sitting in this bar having a drink... are you crazy?".

Or that time that someone asked what a chair had to do with being in presidential office and I said "Ummm, he sits in a fancy one that could look like a throne to someone crazy?".

Definition by example is the weakest form of definition. Interestingly enough, Jesus used parables primarily yet his points were always proven.

The more you know

If the president were really just a front man, then the whole system is messed up entirely, which I just do not believe, Alex Jones alive or no.

Not everything said by "Jesus" was said by "Jesus", so, your referring to a book of accumulated knowledge and covered in about 1000 years of social dust.

The more you know.

If you want to solve the US health crisis it will take resolve and extreme measures that the public will not like.

Slap a 1000% tax on all junk food (chocolate, burgers, fries, sugared soft drink etc).
Slap a 1000% tax on cigarettes.
Slap a 1000% tax on alcohol.
Caught with an illegal drug- chop off their hand and 30 years in prison.

Obesity (and diabetes)... gone
Smoking related disease.... gone
Injuries, car crashes, liver disease, dramtically dropped
Drug use- Pretty much non existant.

Pays for itself and you get a tough ass country full of toned hombres and senoritas...

And you guys thought Frazzled was extreme...

Wrexasaur wrote:

... Were you asleep last year, or is that selective conservative memory acting up again? That's like saying "I ran up a huge tab at the bar sitting in that seat, but I've gotten up and walked away; it's the fault of whomever sits down there next." Utter crap, and you know it.

WRONG!

Regardless of 8 years of Bush's shenanigans (what else can you call it?) Obama has a duty to his job as president of the U.S. to grin and bear it (huge smile always helped, eh?). He is the last person in the nation that can whine, he pretty much lost whining rights when he went into office. There isn't two sides to this, there is now and now.

I love metaphors because they just fall to pieces to easily .

Like that time when someone asked if I was the president and I said "No, I am just sitting in this bar having a drink... are you crazy?".

Or that time that someone asked what a chair had to do with being in presidential office and I said "Ummm, he sits in a fancy one that could look like a throne to someone crazy?".

The metaphor made a lot of sense actually. The bar stool is the presidential office and the tab is a metaphor for mistakes. Just because one man leaves the office (the stool) doesn't mean the next man is automatically responsible for his tab (or mistakes).

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:If you want to solve the US health crisis it will take resolve and extreme measures that the public will not like.

Slap a 1000% tax on all junk food (chocolate, burgers, fries, sugared soft drink etc).
Slap a 1000% tax on cigarettes.
Slap a 1000% tax on alcohol.
Caught with an illegal drug- chop off their hand and 30 years in prison.

Obesity (and diabetes)... gone
Smoking related disease.... gone
Injuries, car crashes, liver disease, dramtically dropped
Drug use- Pretty much non existant.

Pays for itself and you get a tough ass country full of toned hombres and senoritas...

And you guys thought Frazzled was extreme...

Oh if only, except the drugs thing. I like marijuana and wouldn't want to see it and it's users further persecuted unnecessarily.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:If you want to solve the US health crisis it will take resolve and extreme measures that the public will not like.

Slap a 1000% tax on all junk food (chocolate, burgers, fries, sugared soft drink etc).
Slap a 1000% tax on cigarettes.
Slap a 1000% tax on alcohol.
Caught with an illegal drug- chop off their hand and 30 years in prison. (this would incur too much clean up, and blood is pretty smelly, and it gets all sticky too.)

Obesity (and diabetes)... gone
Smoking related disease.... gone
Injuries, car crashes, liver disease, dramtically dropped
Drug use- Pretty much non existant.

Pays for itself and you get a tough ass country full of toned hombres and senoritas...

And you guys thought Frazzled was extreme...

I agree with you actually, as surprising as that may seem .

...wait... no hand get cut off... especially not for drugs, that would get waaaaay too messy. I simply don't have the storage space man, be logical.

"Note"
You have to admit that dictators can do a pretty good job of neutering threats by direct action and resolute goals. "I like this in a person, but this is supposed to be a democracy..." Obama has to have thought this at least once so far, I can guarantee that.

Hypocrisy is largely irrelevant, for a number of reasons. The most obvious is that people change their minds failry often. Less obvious is that no one in the world regards every decision in the same way, nor should they. Otherwise we'd all be hypocrites for spending less time pondering tonight's meal than where we want to go to college.

Thank you to all of you so far who have answered my question on hypocrisy. I found them to very thoughtful and provocative. Keep 'em coming, my mind is always open to be changed, as long as there is good reasoning and thought behind it.

which is among other things a major national security issue.

You had me then you lost me. Mostly because it isn't. None of the highjackers came over the southern border, and no one in canada is going to come down for the health care. Social welfare and education also protects against drug related crime and other problems similar. The only way we are going to fix the illegal immigration issue is if south America and Mexico suddenly stops being such a sh!thole. Then and only then will it stop being an issue.

The plan is expected to cost $1.5 trillion, which is just a God awful amount of money.

Do you know how much money the american public puts into its current for profit system? Do you know how much of it is spent on graft, fraud, and worthless specialists? Do you have any idea how god awful and self destructive the current method is?

I am not saying socialized health care can't work, it just can't work in the US. There are too many people here and we are too in debt to be able to run this type of plan.

How does that even make sense?





Is it hypocritical to post a flamebait topic when you so clearly no so little about that which you are casting dark aspersions over? This is probably sounding overharsh, but really, I think you need to research it all a little bit better before listening to right wing demagoguery more concerned with preventing socialism (without explaining why) then it is with explaining the actual meaning behind issues.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:If you want to solve the US health crisis it will take resolve and extreme measures that the public will not like.

Slap a 1000% tax on all junk food (chocolate, burgers, fries, sugared soft drink etc).
Slap a 1000% tax on cigarettes.
Slap a 1000% tax on alcohol.
Caught with an illegal drug- chop off their hand and 30 years in prison.

Obesity (and diabetes)... gone
Smoking related disease.... gone
Injuries, car crashes, liver disease, dramtically dropped
Drug use- Pretty much non existant.

Pays for itself and you get a tough ass country full of toned hombres and senoritas...

And you guys thought Frazzled was extreme...

Peoples Rights... gone

Fear, Anger, Open Rebellion... Alive and Thriving!

Peoples Rights... gone

Most people are too stupid to know how to use those rights correctly anyway.

Fear, Anger, Open Rebellion... Alive and Thriving!

Well they'll either lose weight by rebelling or they'll accept the chocolate bar tax. Either way they'll lose some god damn weight. Or die. Either ones okay.

Even if it is hypocrisy, it is so small and insignificant in comparison to the hypocrisy of other government officials that I would even consider it to be a blessing. If Obama didn't rush bills through legislation, absolutely nothing would be passed. The two political parties are at a standstill, and Obama doesn't even have the support of his full party anymore. Republicans are trying everything they can think of to overturn the election. This will lead to absolutely nothing being passed at all until Obama is out of office, while we dig ourselves into a deeper hole in the meantime. Also, keep in mind that in 2004, we weren't in a severe economic crisis and the Republican party hadn't turned into a pack of rabid dogs out for blood. I'm fully behind Obama doing whatever he has to do to pass what he thinks will get us out of this gak, wether that violates regulation or not.

If you didn't know, the United States is already in debt 27 trillion dollars. We have been in debt since our founding. 1.5 trillion is honestly nothing in comparison, and can't really be complained about, especially since it will rid us of the worst profiteering scheme known to man and provide us something that we've needed for decades.

Also, calling illegal immigration a major national security issue is somewhat ignorant. The very worst thing it will ever lead to is more drug trade, which can be a problem, but it's not like importing cocaine is a terrorist act. Of course, with a biased stance, you probably haven't looked into the fact that it can take over ten years to get a green card. You can easily starve to death in ten years. Why should I have a right to a 'better' life just because I was born here? I'm all for illegal immigration. More power to them.

As long as it isn't harmful then yes we should allow it.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Peoples Rights... gone

Most people are too stupid to know how to use those rights correctly anyway.

Yeah! That's the way to think!

Totalitarian Government here we come!

Chrysaor686 wrote:Even if it is hypocrisy, it is so small and insignificant in comparison to the hypocrisy of other government officials that I would even consider it to be a blessing. If Obama didn't rush bills through legislation, absolutely nothing would be passed. The two political parties are at a standstill, and Obama doesn't even have the support of his full party anymore. Republicans are trying everything they can think of to overturn the election. This will lead to absolutely nothing being passed at all until Obama is out of office, while we dig ourselves into a deeper hole in the meantime. Also, keep in mind that in 2004, we weren't in a severe economic crisis and the Republican party hadn't turned into a pack of rabid dogs out for blood. I'm fully behind Obama doing whatever he has to do to pass what he thinks will get us out of this gak, wether that violates regulation or not.

If you didn't know, the United States is already in debt 27 trillion dollars. We have been in debt since our founding. 1.5 trillion is honestly nothing in comparison, and can't really be complained about, especially since it will rid us of the worst profiteering scheme known to man and provide us something that we've needed for decades.

Also, calling illegal immigration a major national security issue is somewhat ignorant. The very worst thing it will ever lead to is more drug trade, which can be a problem, but it's not like importing cocaine is a terrorist act. Of course, with a biased stance, you probably haven't looked into the fact that it can take over ten years to get a green card. You can easily starve to death in ten years. Why should I have a right to a 'better' life just because I was born here? I'm all for illegal immigration. More power to them.

Thanks for the post. Just to clarify something though, the US is only 11.4 trillion in debt. Here is a reliable source. http://zfacts.com/p/461.html This is still way to much and we need to work on bringing it down. Thanks again!

Dreadwinter wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Peoples Rights... gone

Most people are too stupid to know how to use those rights correctly anyway.

Yeah! That's the way to think!

Totalitarian Government here we come!

Unlikely. People will just keep making the uneducated easy decisions until the ice caps are gone, oils disappeared, central asia and africa are starving, Europe's half under ice, and america is bankrupt and destroyed. Uneducated, untempered freedom is whats going to get all of your grand children killed. Keep right on sprinting towards it. At this point I've lost hope of any sort of recovery.

People are just too stupid and lazy.

Apologies. I guess my U.S. History teacher had some unreliable sources of information.

Even so, with 11.4 trillion in debt, I would still say that the benefits far outweigh the risks.

halonachos wrote:As long as it isn't harmful then yes we should allow it.

Oh great now we have to define 'harmful' in a way everyone will agree. Hope you don't like Steak, vegans don't think to highly of it and would fall on the 'harmful' side. Some people think Porn is 'harmful'. Oops, there went the internet.

ShumaGorath wrote:Unlikely. People will just keep making the uneducated easy decisions until the ice caps are gone, oils disappeared, central asia and africa are starving, Europe's half under ice, and america is bankrupt and destroyed. Uneducated, untempered freedom is whats going to get all of your grand children killed. Keep right on sprinting towards it. At this point I've lost hope of any sort of recovery.

Hard to believe it is only 4 years from now. Wait, did I just give it away?

I mean it causes suffering as in someone says that everyone should kill each other and then doesn'tkill themself. or if they say they won't increase taxes on the middle class and does it anyway.