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We all know the history (or should do). So given that the Nazi state ended in 1945 is it ok to want to create a Nazi future (past?) that never happened primarily for the purpose of creating ‘cool’ Nazi technology (mechs, rocket packs, super tanks, stealth bombers, zombies, werewolves and so on)? Are we gamers being too blasé with the ideology that drove the creation of these Nazi wonder weapons? Are they inseparable?

I play Flames of War Germans and probably because I come from a Role-playing and 40k gaming background every battle is a story (I can’t play armies or games I don’t have a ‘feel’ for, this is the primary reason I don’t play LotR, I simply don’t care for Middle Earth.) so in Flames of War I’m essentially creating stories of how the Nazis win, however as FoW is based upon history, it has a finite end, they do not win and are consigned to history.

This is not the case with ‘fantasy’ WWII(ish) games; I’m not quite sure how I feel about them (along with modern combat games).
in these fantasy WWII games the Nazi's are still going strong after their time, and therefore everything they stand for and all the crimes they commit are still being perpetrated in this fantasy world. I've never seen these issues addressed in these games.

What do you guys think?

Disclaimer: I normally hate disclaimers in posts (it’s very Warseer) but I feel that I must make an exception (I’m a dreadful hypocrite). Try to stick to how this subject relates to war gaming, I hope that it will stay unlocked if we do.

[Edit] I am not planning to create my own game I am attempting to discuss the existing 'post WWII fantasy' genre.

Nazi fluff?

Sounds like a terrible joke man .

So you want to A.) create a winning situation for the Nazi's in an alternate universe.

B.) create a bunch of weapons for said alternate universe and equip Nazis with these weapons

C.) have people okay you doing this for some reason?

Hmmm....

I cannot imagine someone that doesn't want to play your Nazi's saying anything else in a thread. It has been a day of confusing threads.

I recommend you spell out what you mean, because it is pretty unclear to me at least.

I think it's a game. A game of wotifs, but still a game.
They are not the same thing. Real nazis didn't use werewolves and zombies. I know this.

But then, I've also played Reichstar (the nazis did not lose WW2 and went on to develop their own space program AND conquer the stars). The ideologies of naziizm were not restricted to the Germans (and have had remarkably similar analogues throughout history).
History doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme a lot.

Also Ironstorm (World War Zero) PS2 game. US 'corporate' soldier against the Neo-Russo-mongolian empire that has its final battle on the rooftop of the Reichstag.

My dad was orphaned when the Russians moved in on Hungary. Does this mean that out of respect to him (he;s dead and beyond caring anyway) I should not play any game where Russians (or analogues) are used (either as a playable faction or not)?

I like the idea, because that period greatly interests me, I know a lot of people are easily offended by the subject material, understandably, but to me its no different from alternate history novels where the Nazis won WWII, like Fatherland (I think by Robert Harris)

Meh... nm.

So uh... Wolfenstien but with the Americans losing because they didn't send in B.J fast enough? <_<

You should check out my "Zombie Nazi" thread in the painting section.

I don't see quite what you're getting at. The fluff of the 40K universe is awful, the imperium is a fascist state where planets full of people are routinely exterminated - and they're supposed to be the good guys. You don't play this aspect of the game any more than you'd play the 'concentration camp' aspect of WW2 Nazis. Perhaps it's a bit close to home for some people, but really I think it's easy to play around with certain semi-fictional aspects of WW2 while being being informed and being respectful of others.

EDIT: Post removed by author on the basis that he has NO idea what the hell he is talking about.

Also: Obligatory "Reading Comprehension FTW"

AlexCage wrote:Just say your forces are no longer lead by Hitler and his little regime. As long as we're in the realm of "Stuff that didn't actually happen", you can say that one of the many assassination attempts worked marvelously, but Hitler was replaced by a warmonger without the racism. We lost the genocide, but kept the ideals! Everyone is happy! Well... except the soldiers.

All I can say is


Zombies are cooler, especially Nazi zombies. The problem with making a Nazi army without the Nazi is.... ummm....

Unless you start placing stars on your Jewish opponents; I don't see much of a problem here at all.

Phillip K. Dick made who knows how much money after writing about a Nazi-controlled alternate universe in "The Man in the High Castle" and Games Workshop themselves profit from Nazi/SS/WW2 German-inspired uniforms in the Steel Legion (their old rules even pay somewhat a tribute to the Blitzkrieg).

However like Wrex I'm not sure what the OP was trying to communicate.

@ Alexcage: It’s a thread about Nazis so no, Godwin does not apply. Adolf Hitler is the head of all military forces you cannot separate the military and government so easily. Nazi ideology directly dictates the course of the war and slave labour drives the industries that support that war effort. It would be impossible to ‘switch off’ the war of annihilation that took place in the east.

With no ideological backing the war has no reason to continue. The Nazis made several attempts to make peace in the west thorough the war from as early as 1940, long before they were loosing (militarily).

AlexCage wrote:Just say your forces are no longer lead by Hitler and his little regime. As long as we're in the realm of "Stuff that didn't actually happen", you can say that one of the many assassination attempts worked marvelously, but Hitler was replaced by a warmonger without the racism. We lost the genocide, but kept the ideals! Everyone is happy! Well... except the soldiers.

Ugh! Possibly the most glossed over concept I could imagine.

if you look on the mongoose publishing website there is rules for zombies in flaming cobra section http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/publisher.php?qsPublisher=12

When in doubt, don't. If you can't justify it to yourself, you'd have little chance of convincing anyone else, either.

Nazi represent a modern day Boogey man, a ready made villain that can, and is used in modern gaming media for exactly that purpose.....

So, having established a motive, the next question is, who wants to play the boogey man? and why?....for example, I have friends who swear by Chaos in the WH40K setting, they actually agree with the principles of chaos and this shows in their choice of army......

This is a limited view however, and to assume that a person plays a Nazi army because they support the Nazi political view-point could lead to some issues!

People have an interest in the "Nazis" for all kinds of reasons, costume and equipment being one of the main I would assume. Lets face it, all the other forces looked like Oliver Twist in comparrison, and don't get me started on the Female Nazi soldier fantasy....we all know that way lies madness, and a lot of self harm!

Playing a game, a wargame, where the Nazis haven't been beaten, doesn't necessarily support the prinicples of the Nazi party either, as quite clearly the struggle continues....hence the wargame aspect.....looking at "what if" scenarios is natural, and can lead to immense creativity.

I guess you have to ask yourself.....is the glass half empty? or half full?.....you can chose to view this as a negative, seedy and unwholesome addition to modern wargaming, or simply another aspect of the genre, that pays a tribute to sacrifices made, and keeps the people of the present midful of the actions of the past!

Edit note# I don't belive the OP is looking to CREATE a Nazi based themed game, or the associated fluff! It seems to me that he wishes to discuss the merits of current Nazi based "what if" games on the market.....correct me if I'm wrong, but if not then most of the responses seem to have missed the point!

Delephont wrote:Edit note# I don't belive the OP is looking to CREATE a Nazi based themed game, or the associated fluff! It seems to me that he wishes to discuss the merits of current Nazi based "what if" games on the market...

Correct.

My interest here lies in the gap between the 'Nazi super science' and the reality of the system that supported it. It's too easy to fixate on the imagery and wonder of the technology and not think of the human cost. This should be a grey area that we should think about, it is a very adult concept in a hobby/industry sadly lacking in this area.

Stalin killed more people than Hitler.

Would we also have super-Soviets in this game?

Get "My Tank is Fight!" by Zack Parsons. It's full of all kinds of stuff like this - Nazi experimental weapons that never saw the light of day, space stations, land battleships, helicopter packs, and all kinds of other cool stuff. Even has little excerpts of fluff describing how they'd be used in actual combat situations.

Gear Krieg is also awesome for pulp scifi German madness.

Delephont wrote:
Edit note# I don't belive the OP is looking to CREATE a Nazi based themed game, or the associated fluff! It seems to me that he wishes to discuss the merits of current Nazi based "what if" games on the market.....correct me if I'm wrong, but if not then most of the responses seem to have missed the point!

Ah. My mistake. Please disregard my previous post, as I clearly don't know what the hell I'm talking about.

Say what you will about National Socialism; at least it's an ethos. Chaos worship is ultimately just selfish nihilism.

Nurglitch wrote:Say what you will about National Socialism; at least it's an ethos. Chaos worship is ultimately just selfish nihilism.

Oooh what? not exactly a party of redeeming values (but yea better than most of the 40K Ruinous Powers except change of course).

http://www.ironsky.net/

It's from The Big Lebowski.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Stalin killed more people than Hitler.

Would we also have super-Soviets in this game?

#sigh#........

Some author already wrote a series like this. I think his fictional Nazi stand ins are the Strika? And the eventually conquer the Earth, leaving a few escapees to flee to Alpha Centauri.

There are already some "Weird War II" games out there. Gear Krieg has already been mentioned, but there is also Secrets of the Third Reich and Darkson Designs' AE-WWII.

There's a new book for Gear Krieg coming out using Mongoose's Battlefield Evolution rules...

However, the main thing seems to be handling the setting with enough tact that there's no chance of it being seen as 'glorifying' the Nazis.

Aren't there enough alt-WW2 whatnots out there already?
- Dust Tactics
- Gear Krieg
- SWOTL / Luft '46
and so on?

Solasun wrote:...Americans losing because they didn't send in B.J fast enough?

ANYTIME you don't get a B.J fast enough is a loss, American or otherwise.




Ghidorah

JohnHwangDD wrote:Aren't there enough alt-WW2 whatnots out there already?
- Dust Tactics
- Gear Krieg
- SWOTL / Luft '46
and so on?

The Tannhäuser boardgame is also close to that topic.