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Basically this is the scenario.

I had a Waveserpent move 22 inches into a Landraider ramming it; it failed horribly. I blew up the Wave Serpent with a roll of 5 so it became a wreck. Can the troops inside which were Fire Dragons fire at the Landraider in the shooting phase?

I believe so, but i could be wrong.

Not in the vehicle anymore, so restrictions don't apply.

i might be wrong but arn't units forced to disembark not allowed to move or fire?

Hollismason wrote:Basically this is the scenario.

I had a Waveserpent move 22 inches into a Landraider ramming it; it failed horribly. I blew up the Wave Serpent with a roll of 5 so it became a wreck. Can the troops inside which were Fire Dragons fire at the Landraider in the shooting phase?

That depends- did they deploy on top of the wrecked wave serpent?

Seriously though, pg 67 of the rule book.

Totally did. LOL and no it was not my Waveserpent. I did let him put them with in 2 inches and on top.

I am under the impression that everyone in the WS is dead.....the ws moved full out......units cannot disembark from a vehicle that moved full out.......wrecked forces you to disembark if able, those that cant are destroyed..........ie they cannot disembark and die because the ws moved full out........

So if you destroy a wave serpent that moved flat out it kills everyone inside?

Yeah that's NOT a trade I'm willing to make for my 4+ cover save, thanks.

You also can't disembark the same turn you embark, so if I climb in a tank and then move, and then it gets destroyed, am I dead?

Being destroyed FORCES you to disembark. If your exits are blocked such that you can't place the models you may opt to make an emergency disembarkation anywhere on or next to the vehicle, but are super-pinned on your following turn.

Provided you still had LOS to the landraider through the giant hulk of the wave serpent in front of your dragons, and you pass your pinning test, yes you can shoot.

Unfortunately you'll be out of 6" range so that's quite a long shot.

Spellbound wrote:So if you destroy a wave serpent that moved flat out it kills everyone inside?

Yeah that's NOT a trade I'm willing to make for my 4+ cover save, thanks.

You also can't disembark the same turn you embark, so if I climb in a tank and then move, and then it gets destroyed, am I dead?

Being destroyed FORCES you to disembark. If your exits are blocked such that you can't place the models you may opt to make an emergency disembarkation anywhere on or next to the vehicle, but are super-pinned on your following turn.

Provided you still had LOS to the landraider through the giant hulk of the wave serpent in front of your dragons, and you pass your pinning test, yes you can shoot.

Unfortunately you'll be out of 6" range so that's quite a long shot.

well by RAW, yeah, youd lose all those guys, since the rules state they arent allowed to disembark that turn.

Fortunately, blowing yourself up on your own turn is rare. Most of the time your enemy is going to be blowing you up, and theres nothing in flat out or star engines that prohibits you from disembarking in your opponents turn.

The question of troops piling out of a wreck has come up before, and the conclusion was that if you read the parts about both embarking and disembarking on the same turn and also about fast transports, they both say that troops may not disembark, i.e. that they may not choose to do so voluntarily. However, the wrecked result under transports only specifies what happens if they cannot disembark. The only time an emergency disembarkation is impossible is if you cannot fit the models within 2" of it's hull, and then in this case the remaining models are destroyed.

Keep in mind that if it was an emergency disembark, then that unit cannot do anything for the rest of the turn, so if the vehicle was wrecked in the Eldar player's turn (as in the case of a failed ram) and if the passengers could not all deploy within 2" of the access points then no, they cannot fire in their shooting phase.

EDIT: Also, if both embarking and disembarking on the same turn and being aboard flat-out fast transports means you were insta-killed because of a Destroyed - Wrecked result, that would make it more devastating than a Destroyed - Explodes result!

Falconlance wrote:

well by RAW, yeah, youd lose all those guys, since the rules state they arent allowed to disembark that turn.

Fortunately, blowing yourself up on your own turn is rare. Most of the time your enemy is going to be blowing you up, and theres nothing in flat out or star engines that prohibits you from disembarking in your opponents turn.

I believe the flat out rule continues till your next turn, hence why the other player needs 6's to hit your vehicle in combat or why you get the 4+ cover..(RAI maby)


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Spellbound wrote:So if you destroy a wave serpent that moved flat out it kills everyone inside?

Yeah that's NOT a trade I'm willing to make for my 4+ cover save, thanks.

Dont forget that Fortune lets you reroll the cover save for Flat-out......


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unistoo wrote:The question of troops piling out of a wreck has come up before, and the conclusion was that if you read the parts about both embarking and disembarking on the same turn and also about fast transports, they both say that troops may not disembark, i.e. that they may not choose to do so voluntarily. However, the wrecked result under transports only specifies what happens if they cannot disembark. The only time an emergency disembarkation is impossible is if you cannot fit the models within 2" of it's hull, and then in this case the remaining models are destroyed.

Keep in mind that if it was an emergency disembark, then that unit cannot do anything for the rest of the turn, so if the vehicle was wrecked in the Eldar player's turn (as in the case of a failed ram) and if the passengers could not all deploy within 2" of the access points then no, they cannot fire in their shooting phase.

EDIT: Also, if both embarking and disembarking on the same turn and being aboard flat-out fast transports means you were insta-killed because of a Destroyed - Wrecked result, that would make it more devastating than a Destroyed - Explodes result!

Good counter-point.... I may have been handi-capping myself all this time........but I find it odd that GW would use "may not" as the qualifier as opposed to "may not choose" for your definition...........I have vested interest in this being backed up by more opinions....

I don't like the pinned rule. Let's go back to blocking exit points and destroying whole units. Much better.


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Especially with the super mech lists right now.

DJ Illuminati wrote:Good counter-point.... I may have been handi-capping myself all this time........but I find it odd that GW would use "may not" as the qualifier as opposed to "may not choose" for your definition...........I have vested interest in this being backed up by more opinions....

May is a perfectly valid substitute for 'may not choose' in this case - I find it harder to believe that they would use the words 'may not' if they really meant 'cannot'.

unistoo wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:Good counter-point.... I may have been handi-capping myself all this time........but I find it odd that GW would use "may not" as the qualifier as opposed to "may not choose" for your definition...........I have vested interest in this being backed up by more opinions....

May is a perfectly valid substitute for 'may not choose' in this case - I find it harder to believe that they would use the words 'may not' if they really meant 'cannot'.

Maby I am just paranoid of being TFG but I am hesitant about making a ruling based on the context of a single conjunctional word.......of course that paranoia of being TFG is why I never field more than 1 landraider at a time or more than 1 Wraithlord at a time

DJ Illuminati wrote:Maby I am just paranoid of being TFG but I am hesitant about making a ruling based on the context of a single conjunctional word.......of course that paranoia of being TFG is why I never field more than 1 landraider at a time or more than 1 Wraithlord at a time

The fact that they used it identically in both cases and that a different reading makes Wrecked! a more desirable result than Destroyed! seems to me to be pretty clear support for the RAW being the RAI.

unistoo wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:Maby I am just paranoid of being TFG but I am hesitant about making a ruling based on the context of a single conjunctional word.......of course that paranoia of being TFG is why I never field more than 1 landraider at a time or more than 1 Wraithlord at a time

The fact that they used it identically in both cases and that a different reading makes Wrecked! a more desirable result than Destroyed! seems to me to be pretty clear support for the RAW being the RAI.

That makes a ton of sense.......I feel silly for losing a 300pt+ squad due to a glancing hit from a Tomb Spider now....(long story)

DJ Illuminati wrote:That makes a ton of sense.......I feel silly for losing a 300pt+ squad due to a glancing hit from a Tomb Spider now....(long story)

Ouch.

Guys , I hate to say it, but the emergency disembark is not a "whenever" you feel like it disembark.

Quite specifically, it states "If any models cannot disembark because of enemies of if they would end up in impassable terrain, the unit can perform an emergency disembarkation"--here enemies is directly referring to being within one inch, not a generic "gosh, darn it-- you caused this!#$" sense.

That is followed by the note,"if even this disembarkation is impossible, they can't disembark"

So... you can't use it for this situation

Chain that to the p70 note "may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase"

Finally, cap it with p. 67 note under destroyed wreck "any models than cannot disembark are destroyed"

I hate to say, but I'll be TFG on this one... rather 'obscure' instance. If no one really want this to happen it's as simple as not tank shocking a dog-gone land-raider with a flimsy skimmer.. or blowing the vehicle up after it's turbo'd with fire support.

You just can't shove your army up another man's canoodle without some drawback. Simple as that.

May not is used where applicable, in at least two sections, as I have already pointed out. May not is different from cannot - they are not interchangeable. So you may not choose to disembark if you've already embarked that turn or if you're in a flat-out fast vehicle. It does not say that you cannot disembark. The only time you cannot disembark is if you cannot fit the models within 2" of it's hull, and then in this case the remaining models are destroyed.

Also, how do you then explain that, for passengers it is safer to be exploded than it is to crash? - since Explodes! involves no disembarking at all, just a chance of taking some mild hits, no matter what you did or how fast you moved.

EDIT: Please note also that the specific rule for transports under "Destroyed - Wrecked!" says they must disembark. Specific overrides generic, as in this case, the specific rule that they must disembark overrides the generic rule that they may not.

The Dragon wrote:

Chain that to the p70 note "may not embark or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that movement phase"

Finally, cap it with p. 67 note under destroyed wreck "any models than cannot disembark are destroyed"

As much sense as Unistoo makes with the example of a Destroy vs a wrecked result... I was also under the impression that "may not" was a polite way of saying "go f' yourself if you think it will work"

Just remember that the book was writen in England where sentance structure is more fluid and polite than American English.......example

Me : "Hey mother, May I punch you in the face?"

Mother: "You may not!"

By polite wording I would assume that that is the end of that conversation...........but saying "Cannot" is not the same as "may not" is like having that same conversation on the Jerry Springer show.........Someone is still getting punched in the face.

"May" is a choice.... "may not" is a fixed fact IMHO

I concur. The argument here based on grammar is pretty fixed.

the Use of may not is not the same as "may or may not"
The choice is taken away. It means Can't.

Other synonyms for this are 'boned, screwed, dicked, up the crick, and necron v. ork wave'

DJ Illuminati wrote:Just remember that the book was writen in England where sentance structure is more fluid and polite than American English

Yes and no, conversationally and casually, yes - but when doing 'technical' writing (which rules are), you use a different set of rules, where you choose clarity and brevity over linguistic niceties, especially relevant in this case as may is briefer, and with equal meaning in context, to may not choose.

One last thing if anyone's going to argue this on an asinine level of grammar...

who is going to stand by the fact that you CAN disembark from a turbo'd transport whenever you damn well feel like it.

please, raise your hand.

We all need to know where to point and laugh.

The Dragon wrote:...whenever you damn well feel like it.

That's the point really, you may not whenever you feel like it, but you must when Wrecked

unistoo wrote:

DJ Illuminati wrote:Just remember that the book was writen in England where sentance structure is more fluid and polite than American English

Yes and no, conversationally and casually, yes - but when doing 'technical' writing (which rules are), you use a different set of rules, where you choose clarity and brevity over linguistic niceties, especially relevant in this case as may is briefer, and with equal meaning in context, to may not choose.

There is a level of casual-ity to the writing style that GW uses, look at the rules for the Wreaking Ball upgrade for Orks.... it has all the stats of a weapon and yet isnt written out in a formulatic stat-line.

I think the book would be too boring for new players and would read like a VCR manual if they proofread every possible nuance of how a words context might apply in a sentence structure....GW is a bunch of artists, not English language majors.

DJ Illuminati wrote:I think the book would be too boring for new players and would read like a VCR manual if they proofread every possible nuance of how a words context might apply in a sentence structure....GW is a bunch of artists, not English language majors.

I agree, the informality of gaming rulesets do make them more readable. However, we must deal with the what is written - projecting perceived cultural nuances onto the rules is definitely not RAW.

unistoo wrote: we must deal with the what is written

lol there is the source of all of our problems....... we need more Official FAQs just to get a grasp of what they were thinking when they wrote the book.....

Okay somebody flip a coin. lol


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But seriously, I can roughly understand it.

The context of May not, as in cannot choose to do so willingly, does not come into play here since you were exploded out-without choice.

Conversely (->me being an ass<-) didn't you CHOOSE to tank shock knowing the consequences? Hmmmmmm!!!?

lol

So if it's wrecked, you all die, but if it explodes, you're all ok?

Or for the guy that said "that only applies to the specific situation of enemy models blocking your exit"

So if I ram a vehicle, tank-shocking a unit in the way, and the unit piles on my exit ramp, THEN I can disembark because now those rules apply, but if they weren't there I couldn't?

That's just silly.

No, listen, the emergency disembark can only be triggered in two instances. That's it.

If you turbo and get snuffed... somehow? in your own turn by doing foolish things the penalty is inescapable smashing.

Of course that's only one interpretation here.
the other 'may not' discussion as I'm sort of stewing on it here means you can not actively 'decide' to disembark of your own free will after turbo. IF you get snuffed the guys just fall out on the table going WTF.