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I'm finally starting my Space Marine army, and I can see clearly that Tactical Squads can be equipped to do just about anything.

But that's just the problem. What the heck should I do with them? I am most definitely not jumping on the Vulkan bandwagon, but I want my entire army to be in Drop Pods, meaning I should logically take short-ranged weapons on anything but my Devastators. Should I go with the jack-of-all-trades flamer/missile launcher? Or should I go with a flamer and heavy bolter for infantry-killing? Or, should I leave the heavy bolters for my Devastators?

No go for a flamer and a melta gun for tanks and troops

and for the Devastators Laz is relly good or trad them for a Land Raiders

Lascannons on Devastators? May as well be buying a Ferrari. I'm thinking of leaving anti-infantry to them. After all, 12 heavy bolter shots is nothing for IG and Orks to sniff at. If I need to bust tanks, I could take combi-meltas on my Sternguard Veterans or stick Multi-meltas on my Dreadnoughts, but a MM on a Dread means one less assault cannon.

Just saying what I think

If you are going to take Devs just grab 4 X missile launchers. They can pop transports, so your drop pod units can focus on their chewy centers, And if you need anti infantry you have 4 templates or 4 ap 3 shots. All around a solid choice.


That being said I would get a master of the forge and take dreads in pods as your heavy option.


Now back on topic.

1 Melta, 1 Combi-melta, 1 multi-melta

or

1 Flamer, 1 combi flamer, 1 multi-melta

Sounds good, except for the meltas on a Tac squad. I've already said I don't want on the Vulkan bandwagon, I'm trying to make this competitive without the boring meltagun spam. There aren't as many Mech lists around here.

Unfortunately, for the points, AND the fact that you'll be Droppodding, MM's are the competative layout. Your other options are ML's or HB's (for free, at least). Either option is good, just not as good as Melta. The fact is, podding puts you in your opponent's face so the extra range HB's and ML's give is effectively negated, you'll probably be moving the squad alot and won't be able to fire much anyway. When you do get to fire a HW, neither is as reliable as melta (in the current mech heavy meta-game, at least). If you're planning on facing a lot of horde armies on foot, a bolter is probably a better choice than any heavy weapon anyways, because of the aforementioned movement. Plasmacannons would be better, if they didn't raise the cost of the squad even more. IMO it's silly to pay points on the chance of killing yourself for a shot that scatters, AND can't be fired on the move. Lascannons lack the required punch for the points IMO. A typical Tac squad with DP, FREE weapon options and a Seargant with PF/PW and combi anything still costs @250 points. Adding HW's which won't be fired consistently and won't reliably add any tactical advantage seems silly.

For Special weapons, I usually take a flamer in my pod squads as they reliably get into range their first turn on the board, but if your enemy castles they'll probably be worthless as soon as you drop; A good competative player will castle up inside or behind their vehicles and without the melta you have no reliable way to get past the AV wall.

The previously mentioned ML dev squads are a good idea, or Devs with 2x HB and 2xML, CS'd to multi-task.
OR just grab a couple Dakka Preds.

My Favorite Lay out is
10 man w/
PlasmaCannon, meltagun ; Razorback w/ nothing , I like this because it provides AntiInfantry and MEQ. It also makes the squad able to sit in a area with out cover and gain cover. The plasmacannon usually draws more fire than the Razorback.

220 points of Awesome/



Hurray mobile antiinfantry and fire base w/ cover place a half the squad behind the razorback if 4 or more die jump them in the Razorback if you want to go grab some objectives. Start the game combat squaded and go run around with the Razorback and Meltagun and leave the others in cover.

It's a shame that codicies are tacking on "free" wargear that you pay for anyway, regardless of if you use it or not. OT though, note that the entry states that tac marines have bolt pistols, not just the seargent! that HB trooper need not twiddle his ceremite-clad thumbs because his fellows are marching onwards! Go ahead and put a heavy bolter in there and remember to use the pistol on the move, and the HB during what times he can.

There is only one REAL way to use tac squads: Power Fist, Meltagun and Rhino.

Otherwise Plasmagun. Flamer is OK, it comes in the box.

Tacobake, that isn't a very good unit. Power fists are disadvantageous for normal Marines, and you should always take a free heavy weapon.

Alright, fair enough. Meltagun, Free Heavy (picK) + Power Fist.

What is not to love about Power Fists. You are only giving up I4 and they are batter against anything T5 or higher. If you are not bringing Terminators, you are going to want some Power Fists.

I was personally thinking of using:
Drop Pod
Plasma Gun
Multi-melta

This way, different members of the squad don't outrange each other and can pop transports and heavy tanks with relative ease. The MM and PG could also nail those pesky 2+ save units.

Give your Sgt. a Combiweapon its well worth it.

Tacobake wrote:What is not to love about Power Fists. You are only giving up I4 and they are batter against anything T5 or higher. If you are not bringing Terminators, you are going to want some Power Fists.

Codex Marines don't want to be in hand-to-hand combat. You have Combat Tactics for a reason, and taking a power fist increases the chance that flukey luck will cause you to win or tie assault. Further, taking a power fist makes it much harder for you to use Combat Squads effectively. I would recommend a power fist for squads that are deploying behind enemy lines (either through drop pods or outflanking), and only then if they are going to be apart from the rest of your force.

I use one tac to drop in with a flamer and a MM to bust tanks and infantry. I also give them a TH so that they can attract any dropping stuff.

MC

Skip marine tactical squads all together.

That's why my commander is on a bike. Suddenly my bikes count as troops, and IMHO they are much better than tac squads point for point.

I just wish those bikes could climb stairs like in the movies.

Bikes are expensive models and I don't feel that they're at all cost-effective.

Tactical squads can take Drop Pods and don't suffer from having to take dangerous terrain tests. They are also more numerous, and I don't need bikes anyway if I'm dropping in.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Bikes are expensive models and I don't feel that they're at all cost-effective.

Tactical squads can take Drop Pods and don't suffer from having to take dangerous terrain tests. They are also more numerous, and I don't need bikes anyway if I'm dropping in.

Here I disagree, and that's part of healthy debate. Even with black templars or chaos, I would agree with you -- but not vanilla marines. Take a look at these 2 squads.

10 marines + MeltaGun + MultiMelta 210pts
8 bikes + 1 meltagun + 1 attack bike w/MultiMelta = 265pts
In ~1000 points you will have 5 drop pods vs 4 bike squads.

The bike squad has the following advantages
1) Can move nearly anywhere on the board they need to be with turbo-boost. Once the drop pod marines drop, they are stationary. You get 1 shot at the rear of a tank before it moves away from you.
2) Can move 12" and shoot
3) Models are relentless so they can move and fire bolters 24"
4) Biker bolters are twin linked, increasing the chances of hitting from 2/3 to 8/9
5) Can shoot the multi-melta on the move, greatly increasing the chances of being 12" or less from a tank.
6) Gives up 1 VP instead of 2 if wiped.
7) Toughness of a 4(5) vs 4.
8) Can bring two special weapons per squad.
9) Bases are larger, meaning template weapons will hit less models.
10) Drop pod'ed marines cannot take advantage of combat squads to the same effectiveness of bikes.

Normal marines have the following advantages
1) Can run through difficult terrain without causing tests.
2) Can have more weapon loadouts.

Overall, for those extra 55 points, I think the bikers are a much better bang for your buck.
Of course, this is all opinion, which everyone is allowed to have.

Having played Tactical Squads for a year now, I will keep things simple:

Power Weapon, Flamer, Multimelta. Mounted in a Rhino.

The first thing you have to understand about Tactical Squads are they are not an offensive unit. Chaos does better offensive troops then we do, and if you are really concerned about that play Chaos.

Tactical Squads should be slow and cautious in their advance and should never leave their transport unless your opponent makes them. They should never draw attention to themselves. In objective missions they should secure an objective early and sit on it. In Kill Points they should only ever counter attack.

The Power Weapon is purely a defensive weapon. It is there to simple break combat resolution in your favor which is important in an army lead by a character that removes Combat Tactics.

The Multimelta allows you to pop any tank that gets close to your Rhino, thereby delaying your opponent from getting closer without the protection of their transport.You will rarely use it though, and the Missle Launcher can be a good alternative for missions where you tactical squad sits on an objective far from your enemy. Either way it's free.

The Flamer is generally considered the better Special. Simply because it softens targets before your tactical squad can charge. The Melta is a good option, but you need to be able to be flexible with your squad and the free heavy weapon can handle the tanks. Plasma is worthless in the tactical squad because the opportunity to use it will rarely present itself.

Rhinos are superior because of the amount of protection they offer and you can fire heavy weapons from their fire point. Ten men are preferred because of the access to the free upgrades and the option to Combat Squad. I am not a fan of having an army list where you will always have guys out in the open, so 10 men plus Razorback equals fail to me. Razorbacks are useful for a 5 man squad with a Combi-weapon. Drop Pods are for more important things then Tactical Squads. Don't expect 10 Marines in the open to survive sustained fire from an IG gun line.

Tactical Squads need armored protection because they simply need to survive in great enough numbers to hold their objectives at the end of the game.

Lab, I've never given a lot of thought to running bikes but you've made some good arguements.

I don't think bikes are right in every list but they may certianly have their place in a list in my future.

As far as tac. layouts my drop tac. squads usually have plasma gun/plasma cannon, sgt. with fist.

I combat squad them after they drop and the plasma cannon hangs out and uses the pod for cover. My plasma gun runs around with the sgt. looking to do some damage. I usually play against a necron opponent though. I think in most cases I would go with a multi-melta and plasma gun.

You should never pay points for a heavy weapon in a tactical squad, leave that to the Devastators.

I play DA, do my Tac Squads make great paperweights... DW makes for far better troops.

However, in a SMurf list, I like good ol' Flamer, ML and a Rhino. If Vulcan, Flamer, MM, Fist and a Rhino. I never take a PW anymore, as they just don't do enough to swing combat...the PF is much better if you have given up Combat Tactic for a character.

Razorbacks are nice for the firepower, but I hate being foced to leave guys behind against todays mobile armies.

PW.. Combi-flamer Melta.. Multimelta..

PW.. Combi-melta.. Flamer.. Multimelta

Mahu: If you are going to bring the PC, a tac squad is much cheaper t than picking one up in a dev squad.

And dakka preds are much more points effective than HB devs.

An interesting thing occurred to me right now, not sure if this is common sense for everyone else, but...

...the Razorback in its basic TL-HB variant loses much of its appeal when compared with a Rhino when the Tac-Squad inside packs a HB.

The Razorback is 5pts more expensive than the Rhino, while the HB on the Tacs is free. For 5pts you lose 4 seats and get twin-linking on the HB...seems like a bad deal to me. This makes me think about using the Razorback, IF I field it, as a defensive, cover-hugging, objective-holding tank-sniper with its TL-LC, as expensive as it is...

Another question that interests me, and this is really about using tac-squads : Does anyone use the heavy bolter in tacsquads? It seems not that useful to me. If the squad shall hunt tanks, it'll pack a MM. If the squad shall hunt infantry, it can get a ML with frag missiles, which is probably quite equal in killing soft stuff to a heavy bolter AND is able to kill transports if necessary, isn't it? Granted, S5/DS4 and S4/DS6 is a little difference...
...so, as far as I can see it, the heavy bolter in a tactical squad is only useful if you're using that squad to kill medium infantry? Like fire warriors, for example?

Cheese Elemental wrote:Lascannons on Devastators? May as well be buying a Ferrari. I'm thinking of leaving anti-infantry to them. After all, 12 heavy bolter shots is nothing for IG and Orks to sniff at. If I need to bust tanks, I could take combi-meltas on my Sternguard Veterans or stick Multi-meltas on my Dreadnoughts, but a MM on a Dread means one less assault cannon.

I prefer two H. bolters and two missile launchers. they can do anti-fantry nicely and when neededtwo krak missiles is adequate to deal with an armoured threat.

Best of both worlds and good at both.

I'm not going to get into the wider issue of whether or not to take them, but since the OP indicates he wants to drop Marines, here's my opinion.

Take a look at the costs of the heavy weapons across the entries for Tactical and Devestator squads. Buying a Lascannon on a Devestator brings the model to 46 points, more than a terminator. But on a Tactical Marine, that Lascannon brings him to only 26 points. Why? Because you can only take one in the squad.

SO, here's how to work that to your advantage.

Use your tactical squads for the expensive one shot heavy weapons and Dev for the cheap weapons you'd like a lot of. Now, every marine army is different, but my general thought on Tactical squads after a few years playing with them is that their role is clearly Anti-Infantry.

Many will argue and say "but, General, Powerfists and Meltaguns and Vulkan spam, Oh My!" Sure, Tacs _can_ be configured to deal with Armor, but that's what they do. They deal with it, they don't hunt it. A single meltagun misses 1/3 of the time and leaves your scoring unit standing around looking like scrubs. Sure, everything has that problem, but if you're firing at infantry, you have the weight of 4-7 Boltguns rapid firing, and small arms fire is the #1 way to kill things big and small. Pile on the wounds and watch em fail the saves.

Okay, all that so I could get to this - for Tactical Squads, take the Plasma Cannon. It's 5 points for the most damaging anti-infantry heavy weapon in any list anywhere. Take two in case one Get's Hot. These things are 25 points in a Dev squad, but honestly, this is one weapon that you will rarely want more than one shot at a time with. Making these your heavy weapon choices for Tacticals means that if they are somewhere that they would like to dig in and shoot, they've got real stopping power against TEQs and down. If they run around and never use it, it's only 5 points wasted, and a nasty threat on the table. If you combat squad them like I do, you end up with a couple base-holding, plasma-slinging mini-dev squads (or 5 wound Plasma Cannons). These can be just as useful in a Drop Pod army, just starting on the other side of the table.

And just so you know, if I take a third Tac squad, I give them a Lascannon. That little combat squad is my early-turn transport killer.

Devestator squads do amazing things with 3 Rocket Launchers/1 Lascannon, 4 RLs, and 4 Heavy Bolters. Lots of other configurations can work, but they are always more efficient if you stick with the 15 point weapons (the ones that are free in a tactical squad). This keeps you from overspending on the Heavies. RL's are the primary choices here for sheer utility value.

On anti armor, a ten dev man squad w/4 MMs rapes armor. CS into two man squads if you want a RB to go with them.

Lascannon snipers should not be underestimated. Despite the WTF MeltasPWWN! crowd, the long range of a LC allows more shots over a game and makes it harder to reach and deal with. It is also very effective for taking out the transports that are key to mech armies.

For DP's, though, MMs are probably the best bet since you will be dropping in mid range most of the time. MLs are better for squads that hang back. Remember, that you don't have to deploy the squads in the DP and can just take the DP as a distraction and to make sure you get the first turn drops you want (such as three dreads). Or to just carry a deathwind and a beacon.

Witzkatz wrote:The Razorback is 5pts more expensive than the Rhino, while the HB on the Tacs is free. For 5pts you lose 4 seats and get twin-linking on the HB...seems like a bad deal to me.

The razorback has one thing over the tactical squad HB which is very important -- the ability to move and shoot.

Witzkatz wrote:...so, as far as I can see it, the heavy bolter in a tactical squad is only useful if you're using that squad to kill medium infantry? Like fire warriors, for example?

If you are going with the 10 man tac squad, a ML or MM are the best options.