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I was wondering what vet players thoughts on 'Ard Boys and Deffkoptas?

- For the Boys, is the extra armor save worth the points? Or should I just invest in more Boys?

- Are Deffkoptas worth the points? Which build is better?

I have heard that koptas are not worth fielding and I just wanted to see what the consensus was on them.

Thx.

I don't use deffkoptas, they're a one trick pony. The come in off reserve, fire their rockets, maybe pop a tank, then die in a hail of gunfire. For their price, especially if you want to give them buzzsaws, I feel that they rarely make up their points.

I've been using (don't laugh) warbuggies with TL rokkits. A squad of 3 is cheaper than a squad of 3 koptas, and they don't really have to be overly scared of bolter fire, unlike the koptas. I usually follow them around with a Big Mek with KFF in a trukk. Its pretty effective.
-A short time ago I played a IG mechvet list, the warbuggies rush up and swept the board left to right, popping chimera after chimera and exposing those vets to loota fire. Granted I was rolling well with my KFF saves, but on average it works well most of the time.

Sometimes I run slugga ard boyz in a trukk to come in and add some beef to a situation where I feel I might be outmatched. I've used them in 20-man squads in a BW and they can perform that way fairly well, but of course you have to avoid any enemies with power weapons or rending, not to mention the 250ish point cost for a squad of 20 boyz, which is a little too pricey. For the cost of the ard boyz upgrade in a 20man squad you can include 13 more boyz in your army, and of course the orks are about numbers no matter what list you're running.

In a sloggin list they're never worth it as far as I can see, as you can get almost as good a save from the KFF, or just run them in cover, which usually nets you the same save as you would have had to pay that 4pts a boy for. Not to mention they are of course torn to shreds by HB fire and the like, its not fun to have your oponent need only 3s for death on your 10pt a model boyz.
-With a sloggin list you can also give all your boyz a 4+ save with the gretchin screen, and gretchin are only 3pts a model, though they will die very quickly.

indigo_jones speaks the truth. I always though it was better to just take more boyz rather than make some Ard boyz. Also you can easily give them cover saves until they reach assault. There are just too many things out there that will negate a +4 armor save or armor saves in general that it doesn't seem worth it.

Deff koptas are a gamble. Sometimes they pay off. Others they miss and get shot to pieces. I like rokkit kans better as a rokkit delivery service. I'm of the opinion that the ork fast attack line up is all pretty weak.

Lies!

Ok, now that I got that out of my system....Deffkoptas with Rokkits+Buzzsaw are simply amazing.

Thie scout rule allows them to move 24" before the game begins and gain a3+ coversave as well. First turn they will easily hit the side or armor of a tank, and then assault its rear armor.

If you go first, you will do serious dmg to tanks turn one.
If you go second, the koptas have a 3+ coversave to protect them.

The key is to NOT start them in reserve, but to make the most of their scout move and apply pressure early on. They are great for taking out things like vehicles, broadsides, devestators, and anything that is long range fire and static.

I have found the best way to use them is in units of 2 both with rokkits, and only one with a buzzsaw. This keeps them uniquely equipped. It also means that they will never be below 1/2 strenght so they can always regroup if they fail a morale check. 2 squads like this only cost you 130 points...which is very paltry in an Ork list for something that adds some sesrious flexibility to your list and forces the other oppoent to react to you, before the game even begins.

As for Ard Boys, I only find them worthwhile when combined with the MadDok for FNP.

Can the koptas turbo-boost with their scout move? I wasn't aware of that. Still I find 25 points for a str 6 PK to be not worht it. Its 7 on the charge, so you'll still need 3's to glance even the weakest of vehicles.

I still feel warbuggies are the better option if used correctly. They're cheaper, more durable, especially if paired with a KFF, and the enemy will not be over eager to waste his more powerful weapons on your little toy cars, making them even more survivable.

That said, if the scout turbo boost plan is legal, then that could be effective, and I can see how it would work well. Nevertheless I am still gonna keep my koptas in a box and my buggies on the field for now.

Deff Kopta's are extremely mobile. Scout (previously stated) will spearhead that long range fire (also previously stated). But you don't need to give them Rokkits. Twin-linked big shoota's are very effective and good range. Allowing them to stay out most enemy's range. Give one a buzzsaw and now you have a unit that can sap tanks as well. But last but not least they are 2 wound models which is the best bargain for your buck. Opposed to, IMO, regular warbikes. But be careful, deff kopta's get really expensive if you load them up with upgrades, which makes the point cost not worth it.

'Ard Boyz are a tough unit. But if you want to take them at all, it should be a 30 man squad. If your gonna have sum boyz pay the points and that way they won't crumble in an assault. That klawin Nob will last a long time with 4+ armour saves between him several MEQ's squads. In the list's I run for tournament, it is rare if ever, a 'Ard mob will be killed completely.

im a big fan of 2x groups of 2 koptas with tl rokkits and 1 with buzzsaw, scout turboboost + move is almost always enough to get rear armor shots and then assault the rear.

It's just great hitting those sweet fast skimmer transports before they get to move, those s7 hits are nice when you figure theyre automatic if you get the first turn.

indigo_jones wrote:Can the koptas turbo-boost with their scout move? I wasn't aware of that. Still I find 25 points for a str 6 PK to be not worht it. Its 7 on the charge, so you'll still need 3's to glance even the weakest of vehicles.

I still feel warbuggies are the better option if used correctly. They're cheaper, more durable, especially if paired with a KFF, and the enemy will not be over eager to waste his more powerful weapons on your little toy cars, making them even more survivable.

That said, if the scout turbo boost plan is legal, then that could be effective, and I can see how it would work well. Nevertheless I am still gonna keep my koptas in a box and my buggies on the field for now.

You really need to read the main rule FAQ...it is perfectly legal to turbo boost in scout moves...they even spell it out for ya

You are also missing the point of the Buzzsaw. Not only is it S7 hitting rear armor (and doing that first trun on transports is amazing...3x S7 autohits on AV10...yes please!), but it can also be a first turn assault hitting Broadsides, Devestators, and all other static firepower units that are a threat to your army. Once they are in CC, firepower units can't shoot you...you just took them completely out of the game (and the Buzzsaw will win the combat for you, too )

Again, the key is runnin 2 man units with 1 Buzzsaw. Cheap and effective. Only 115 for a unit of them that can wreak havoc in the early game. Two such units can cause major problems from any mech list short of LR spam.

Not really worth spending that many points to give the boyz an armour save, invest in a big mek with a kustom forcefield instead to provide cover.
With the points saved get more boyz.

Koptas are pretty limited in uses, the only semi-decent layout for them would be 5 with TL rokkitz, as any less and they run quickly.
They have basic attacks and strength in CC, just a little more ability to survive than a standard boy.
About the only use is trying to pop a tank or 2 early on in games.
And with S8 thats not really going to work on AV 13 - 14

JD21290 wrote: ...just a little more ability to survive than a standard boy.

I, uh, disagree.

Ork Boy: T4, 1W, 6+ save
Kopta: T5, 2W, 4+ save

Disagree all you want.
A boy survives due to mob size, something koptas lack.

@ JD21290:

Maybe you meant that a kopta mob is more brittle than a boyz mob - that's certainly true.

But the size of a mob has no bearing on the survivability of a boy. If someone turns a squad full of bolters on an exposed boyz mob, boyz will die. It's true that the remaining boyz are unlikely to break in a large mob. It's also true that boyz can be ablative wounds for more valuable men, like Indy Chars, nobs, or rokkits/big shootas. But to say that a kopta is only a little tougher than a boy is just false, mathematically.

I was going by mobs since you cant take a single boy as a unit choice.
In which case, the boyz mob will stick around alot longer without either:

A: running away
B: being killed

Morale for deffkoptas is their real weakness, but i've had them go the entire game without actually killing anything and still be worth their points.

i know this goes against wat most people have said so far, but... *takes a deep breath and prepares for incoming sh*t talk*
i have used 3 deffkoptaz with rokkits for quite a while now. no buzzsaw. and i found them relatively useful.
sure, they dont survive THAT long all the time. no, most of the time they are gone by the end of the game.
but i found that they make awesome fire magnets.
it is oddly surprising how so many people in dakka dakka don't like the idea of fire magnets, or don't use them often.
i am a HUGE fan of fire magnets, aka distractions. while something like deffkoptaz or meganobz in trukks (discussed in another article) never last very long, by the time the enemy goes "whew! got rid of those" and turn around, Grogwog SkullTaka (my boss) and his boys are raising their choppas to smash up the umies. or panzies. or kan boyz.
and if they somehow survive, they can assisst the rest of the army in cc. not to mention that deffkoptaz can scount and turbo boost, like everyone said.

with ard boyz, i haven't used them very much. it is very debatable whether to scrap ard boyz option and take more boyz, or take ard boyz.
but. if you think about it, scrapping an option for 20 ard boyz makes room for only 13 regular boyz, like someone mentioned.
with only 2 down, which isn't hard at all, the boyz aren't fearless anymore. a few more down, and they are fleeing.
my boys almost never seem to regroup. get my point?

my conclusion is: deffkoptaz and ard boyz are both very useful, depending how you think of using them.

go roll a six, people.

2 X deffcopta, tlr, 1 buzzsaw turbo boosting on the scout move - 2 squads of those are awesome both at getting in there and popping transports/distupting heavy fire AND soaking up fire.

19 'ard boyz with an 'ard boy nob w pk and bosspole in a battlewagon with mad doc grotsnik is just wicked. I have used that combo a LOT and it never fails me.

Personally, I've done the 2 koptas with rockets and a buzzsaw and it's a beautiful thing Almost always either kills what I've aimed it at, OR soaks up some firepower that would otherwise be directed at the true threat from the army (the horde of boyz).

For Apocalypse sized games, I have a grand total of 15 rocket bearing koptas just waiting to go zipping around tank 'untin'!

-Tyr

I just run one kopta all on his own and he is pretty much ignored until he blows up a demolisher or immobilizes a land raider. At which point he has already done his job.

While we are on the subject of KFF meks.. Is there any point in buying him anything other than the KFF?

Mine gets 'eavy armor, but that's it. I usually try to detach him from mobs before they hit cc, since the KFF doesn't work in cc anyway - at that point, he needs armor.

I buy mine cybork armor, a powerklaw, and an attack squig. He becomes a supernob in combat.

Personally i dont like ard boys a unit of 20 of them cost 200 pts without a nob or big shoota or anything you can get 30 boys with a nob for that. I like deffkoptas though, i have 3 from the black reach set, and converted them so they have TL rokkit launchas and TL big shootas, this way i can decide which one to have before the game and you dont get confused. I gave them all buzzsaws meaning they cacn kill things like temies in CC easy. I also purchased 1 bigbomm useful for killing gaunts etc. As for the KFF Mek i prefer to keep him in an open top trukk with some Nobs this way he can move to where ever things are in neeed of a CS. When it gets to the enemy lines i disembark the Nobz and the mek drives around offering a 5+ CS to the remaining footsloggers.

iamthecougar wrote:Morale for deffkoptas is their real weakness, but i've had them go the entire game without actually killing anything and still be worth their points.

This is where warbuggies can be more effective. Vehicles don't run off the table when one of them dies.

Overall though, I like 'koptas. I've found them to have good effect at killing demon princes, transports, etc.. They might rarely 'get their points back', but thats a very 4th edition thought process. If the koptas crack open all the marine rhinos, they were well worth it -- even if I used 200 points of koptas to kill 140 points of rhinos.

'Ard boys generally are not worth it IMHO with cover saves being as abundant as they are.

labmouse42 wrote:'Ard boys generally are not worth it IMHO with cover saves being as abundant as they are.

True a 5+ KFF cover save is far better than a 4+ armour save IMO.

I run my KFF Big Mek with a Burna and nothing else. He rides with 10 BurnaBoyz and another Mek in the center of my 3 KillKannon BWs.

I run 2 KFF meks in my Kan list.

One is naked with nothing but a KFF and Oiler (because of the Kan wall)

The other I wanted more "Bosslike" (I call him my Warmek )and he has a KFF, Burna, Squig, Oiler and eavy Armor...more for conversion's sake and fluffyness.

Alerian wrote:
The key is to NOT start them in reserve, but to make the most of their scout move and apply pressure early on. They are great for taking out things like vehicles, broadsides, devestators, and anything that is long range fire and static.

This might be why I'm not liking my koptas' performance. I usually used them as reserves to minimize the chance of them getting shot in the early game. The scout move, buzzsaw charge sounds effective. I'll have to give the koptas another chance. I guess painting and converting those AoBR koptas wasn't a waste of time.

Grogwog SkullTaka wrote:i am a HUGE fan of fire magnets, aka distractions. while something like deffkoptaz or meganobz in trukks (discussed in another article) never last very long, by the time the enemy goes "whew! got rid of those" and turn around, Grogwog SkullTaka (my boss) and his boys are raising their choppas to smash up the umies. or panzies. or kan boyz.
and if they somehow survive, they can assist the rest of the army in cc. not to mention that deffkoptaz can scount and turbo boost, like everyone said.

From last game: "Phew! got rid of that trukkload of nobz!" " You forgot about the other 4 trukks didntchya "

Hmmm... Personally, I find deffkoptas to be quite potent, outflanking, shooting a tank in its rear armour. If you kill it, all is good, if you don't, assault it! You might do some damage, and if you fail, you can hit+run to safety. I find 'Ard boyz to be a bit useless, except in the mode of planetstrike with the banner that gives FNP. Take a unit of 30, a Warboss, a mek with a KFF and bring them on from a drop zone near the highest point of the board. Waltz in with your uber death-unit and instantly win the game by planting it on the highest point. This is a very nasty tactic that will win more games than friends...

What are these 'friends'?

Do they come in a twelve pack?