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Okay simple question can you out flank with a valkire or vendetta when it

has a squad which doesn't have the outflank ablility. Such as a verteran

squad?

One more simple question can you scout move a vendetta or valkire with

a squad inside that doesn't have scout?


Basically do the vendetta's scout and infiltrate abilities carry over to the

unit deployed with in them? I would really like some Adepticon FAQ

support if anyone knows of anything out there that can answer this.

Sorry, but it was hilarous seeing this thread title with your user name

As to the question, yes to both. Somone else will have to tell you exactly why but i remember seeing this discussed before.

Both of these are legal manouvers as there is no caveat in the relevant rules for when the model is transporting a unit that lacks the rules, as such, you ignore that specific scenario and default to the way the rules would work without the squad.

It's important to note however the ability does not confer over to the unit in the vehicle, meaning that a Valkyrie or Vendetta making a scout move with non-scouts inside it would not allow the transported unit to disembark, given that disembarking even by the Valkyrie's special rule is initiated by the transported unit, not the transport, and the transported unit is not allowed to make a move in the scout move phase.

Drunkspleen wrote:Both of these are legal manouvers as there is no caveat in the relevant rules for when the model is transporting a unit that lacks the rules, as such, you ignore that specific scenario and default to the way the rules would work without the squad.

It's important to note however the ability does not confer over to the unit in the vehicle, meaning that a Valkyrie or Vendetta making a scout move with non-scouts inside it would not allow the transported unit to disembark, given that disembarking even by the Valkyrie's special rule is initiated by the transported unit, not the transport, and the transported unit is not allowed to make a move in the scout move phase.

Yes both are legal, and the typical maneuver is start out at the edge of your 12" then Scout full out move 18"-24". If going 2nd you have a 4+ cover if going first you can move an additional 6 inches and fire all weapons while deploying your payload.

BlueDagger wrote:Yes both are legal, and the typical maneuver is start out at the edge of your 12" then Scout full out move 18"-24". If going 2nd you have a 4+ cover if going first you can move an additional 6 inches and fire all weapons while deploying your payload.

Be warned that some people would dispute the 4+ cover if you go second, the rulebook says with regards to this "A skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat out in its last Movement phase counts as obscured when fired at".

The claim here is that a scout move does not constitute a movement phase and as such the skimmer would not get the skimmers moving fast benefit.

This is contrary to turbo boosting bikes which say "In the following enemy Shooting phase, the bike benefits from a cover save of 3+" which gives the alternative issue of being able to turbo boost during a scout move and then go first, not turbo-boost fire your weapons, and still have the 3+ cover save.

It's certainly worth a talk with your opponent about, to resolve things before hand. The RAW doesn't allow it (for the reasons stated above), and most people consider the vendetta to be pretty underpriced so are less likely to bend on that. Most people don't know or care about this bit of RAW, so you could probably buffalo your way through, but it's still better to have a brief talk before every game (or with the TO before a tournament) to see how they'd rule on it.

Drunkspleen wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Yes both are legal, and the typical maneuver is start out at the edge of your 12" then Scout full out move 18"-24". If going 2nd you have a 4+ cover if going first you can move an additional 6 inches and fire all weapons while deploying your payload.

Be warned that some people would dispute the 4+ cover if you go second, the rulebook says with regards to this "A skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat out in its last Movement phase counts as obscured when fired at".

The claim here is that a scout move does not constitute a movement phase and as such the skimmer would not get the skimmers moving fast benefit.

This is contrary to turbo boosting bikes which say "In the following enemy Shooting phase, the bike benefits from a cover save of 3+" which gives the alternative issue of being able to turbo boost during a scout move and then go first, not turbo-boost fire your weapons, and still have the 3+ cover save.

Drunkspleen is totally correct here. If someone gives you hassle about putting a non outflanking unit in the Valkyrie, mention to them Drop Pods, and how they allow Marines to Deep Strike even though they do not have the Deep Strike rule.

[qupte=Gwar!]If someone gives you hassle about putting a non outflanking unit in the Valkyrie, mention to them Drop Pods, and how they allow Marines to Deep Strike even though they do not have the Deep Strike rule.

Kirbinator wrote:Are Valyries purchased as a dedicated transport, or are they a separate purchase from Fast Attack or some such? From what I can see, the only dedicated transport available would be the Chimera, meaning the Vet Squad actually starts the game outside of the Valyrie/Vendetta. During your first movement phase the squad could then embark onto the Valkyrie (using their mythical rocket boots to leap that high in the air, but that's another thread...). That would go on to mean that the Vets could not benefit from the Scout or Outflanking movement of the Valkyrie/Vendetta at all.

This is very different from Drop Pods since they are purchased as dedicated transports for the Space Marines or Dreadnought.

I'm sorry, but what does being a dedicated transport have to do with anything? Could you please point out in the rulebook the differences between Dedicated and Non Dedicated transports? I assure you there is Exactly One (1).

You can begin the game inside a Non Dedicated Transport Just fine. What you cannot do is start in someone else's Dedicated Transport. You can even start inside a non dedicated transport (The Valk) in reserve and Outflank with it (if it can).

Sure enough, I was thinking of something else entirely. Please carry on.

I'd like to propose a counter question, How can a unit deploy start the game OUTSIDE its own deployment zone?
The answer - infiltrates and scout. Both are USR and are clearly explained in the rules. Both USR are also very specific about character joining the unit. Unfortunately, the rules don't mention anything about conveying these USR to unit inside a vehicle. So if a unit that is transported outside of their deployment zone without either of these USR, what happens to them? What happens to units then end their movement in impassible terrain?
There is one other unit that falls into this category -> Land Speeder storm. It’s a non-dedicated transport that has the scout rule. Now, space marine scouts can mount in the storm, but I don’t believe they have Scout USR, they have infiltrate. What this means is that a Storm can make a scout, but not with Space marine scouts embarked. I would say they could outflank together because BOTH units have USR that allow them to.
Now even in their own codex, the IG have the ability to give units the scout rule that would normally not have it -> see the entry for Creed.
In a NORMAL game of 40K, if the rules says this is legal, it’s opens up some pretty horrible alpha strike armies. In the Team Tournament, well… consider any unit not in terminator (because that was FAQ) and not a monstrous creature getting first turn assault. CC ‘Nid warrior. Sear counsel. Nobs… Blood angles or templar… or some crazy space wolf when they come out. Heck, how about a use for a Brood lord attached to a max squad of reavers. “Magnum Charge Range”

*E, you're on the list

Chubs, no Transport in the game has EVER had Infiltrate to my Knowledge, and Scout does not by any stretch of the imagination allow you to start outside your deployment zone, as by moving them in the scout move you must have started the game (not the first turn, but the game itself).

Furthermore, saying your solution is in any way correct, how do you explain Deep Striking Tactical Squads inside a Drop Pods? The Drop Pod has Deep Strike, but the Tactical Marines do not. SO how can they arrive by Deep Strike? The answer is of course they can, much like an Infantry Squad inside a Valkyrie can Outflank/Scout.

How about any unit with a dedicated transport that has infiltrate USR can outflank mounted with their unit’s dedicated transport? Chosen and Striking scorpions. Agreed not infiltrating transport, but it’s specifically called out their dedicated transport can outflank when their unit is mounted.

I believe Khan from the marine codex allows for big nasty thing out flank where they would normally not be able to, but I don’t have the rules in front of me to verify if that only applies a unit with combat tactics (and associated dedicated transport).

Again, don’t have the rules handy, but don’t drop pods have a special rule that allow units to arrive via deep strike when mounted in them. Again, special rule, not a USR. Kinda like the whole Snikrot Ambush vrs. Outflank. Not 100%... at work.

Chubs wrote:How about any unit with a dedicated transport that has infiltrate USR can outflank mounted with their unit’s dedicated transport? Chosen and Striking scorpions. Agreed not infiltrating transport, but it’s specifically called out their dedicated transport can outflank when their unit is mounted.

Yes, a Non Outflanking Transport may Outflank when the Outflank Capable Squad is inside it. Your point?

Chubs wrote:I believe Khan from the marine codex allows for big nasty thing out flank where they would normally not be able to, but I don’t have the rules in front of me to verify if that only applies a unit with combat tactics (and associated dedicated transport).

Any unit Replaces Combat Tactics and all Dedicated Transports (Empty or Full) May outflank. However, again, dedicated transports, so this issue does not occur in Marine armies.

Chubs wrote:Again, don’t have the rules handy, but don’t drop pods have a special rule that allow units to arrive via deep strike when mounted in them. Again, special rule, not a USR. Kinda like the whole Snikrot Ambush vrs. Outflank. Not 100%... at work.

No, it doesn't. It has a Special Rule saying the Drop Pods itself must arrive Via Deep Strike, but nothing about the unit inside.

Gwar! wrote:

Chubs wrote:How about any unit with a dedicated transport that has infiltrate USR can outflank mounted with their unit’s dedicated transport? Chosen and Striking scorpions. Agreed not infiltrating transport, but it’s specifically called out their dedicated transport can outflank when their unit is mounted.

Yes, a Non Outflanking Transport may Outflank when the Outflank Capable Squad is inside it. Your point?.

By this logic, would a Stormlord with an Outflanking Capable unit inside, be able to Outflank? (I imagine there are special restrictions against Super-Heavies/Tanks?)

Only Dedicated Transports may Outflank if the Embarked unit has Scout or Infiltrate.

A Stormlord is not a Dedicated Transport. Apologies for omitting "Dedicated" in the previous post, I suppose it was kind of important. It is also in the rulebook however....

Not to be confrontational, (Hell I own 3 Vendetta, I want what Enron is suggesting to be rule) but I can’t get over the rules leap. For a second, let’s put infiltration aside.

In the scout USR is specifically calls out Dedicated Transports. “If a unit with this ability is deployed in a dedicated transport vehicle, it confers the scout ability to the transport”

Just to cover this with an example - >Pathfinder teams w/ their mandatory dedicated transport Devil fish. Pathfinders have scout, so the devil fish gets the scout rule. Unit w/ scout USR + dedicated Transport = dedicated Transport w/ Scout USR (outflanking only embarked though)

I was wrong with the Space Marine Scouts earlier; they do have the scout USR. Space marine scouts have the Scout USR and the Land Speeder Storm has scout USR, then they can both legally make the scout move. Assuming you can start embarked in a transport that is not a dedicated transport, then the Storm can turbo the infantry squad inside. If that assumption is wrong and you can’t start embarked in a transport that is not dedicated, then the Space marine scouts get their regular 6” and the storm can zoom 24”. No rules broken, just a mater of assumptions.

So here we have the crux of what Enron is asking, can a Non-dedicated transport with scout USR transport a unit without scout USR?
I think there are 3 ways of ruling this.

1.) A non-dedicated Transport with Scout CAN transport a unit w/o scout USR. The unit inside can’t of course disembark in the scout phase as it doesn’t get a ‘free’.
2.) A non-dedicated Transport with Scout can’t transport a unit w/o scout USR. The idea is that the unit within is not entitled to the ‘free’ move with the non-dedicated Transport. Let’s not start the conversation about a unit inside a vehicle isn’t really on the board so doesn’t count conversation. Many KFF meks, Null Zone Librarians, and Guiding farseers would disagree their presence on the field while mounted. Clearly you have a non-scout unit in a vehicle making a scout move.
3.) You can’t start embarked in vehicle that isn’t a dedicated transport – get out of there silly. Obviously I don’t believe this is the case, but I don’t see a rule that clearly states you can.

Gwar! wrote:Only Dedicated Transports may Outflank if the Embarked unit has Scout or Infiltrate.

A Stormlord is not a Dedicated Transport. Apologies for omitting "Dedicated" in the previous post, I suppose it was kind of important. It is also in the rulebook however....

Fair enough, sadly, I resort to this forum, and occasionally a glance at a friend's BGB to learn the rules. After a couple of years of this, I have a decent enough handle on them...but always still a learning process.

Thanks. (was really hoping I could outflank that Stormlord...bummer.)

Oh, Creed + Reaver Titan = outflanking Reaver Titan.

Turn 2, 2x2x2 Vendettas outflank wtih a Reaver Titan on a 2+ thanks to Commands squads.


But that would open up the same questions, can a non-dedicated tranport out flank with unit that doesn't have the ability to outflank (no Infiltrate USR, nor Scout)

Chubs wrote:1.) A non-dedicated Transport with Scout CAN transport a unit w/o scout USR. The unit inside can’t of course disembark in the scout phase as it doesn’t get a ‘free’.

This is the correct (and imo Crystal clear) RaW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chubs wrote:But that would open up the same questions, can a non-dedicated tranport out flank with unit that doesn't have the ability to outflank (no Infiltrate USR, nor Scout)

Yes, it can, otherwise Drop Pods would not work, would they?

But Deep strike isn't a USR, now is it?

Jumping right after the drop pod.
5th paragraph on page 95 of the rule book. “In the Movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further, other than to disembark a deep striking transport vehicle. “

Drop pods work pretty easy. Because of the drop pods “Drop Pod Assault” rule, they always enter via the deep strike deployment rules, not because they have the deep strike deployment option… like jump packs (Pod falls from the sky) Page 67 of the rule book, dedicated transport unit restrictions on deployment it was selected with. (There are tactical marines in the pod, not these terms which have their own deep strike deployment method). Deep strike rule 5th paragraph, the transported unit disembarks (Tactical marines exit their dedicated transport the has landed safely and space was available).

My point? Deep striking and outflanking are forms of deployment, not USR. Page 94 under Preparing reserves, 4th paragraph. “… the player must specify any transport vehicle in reserve is caring any of the infantry unit and/or IC in reserve”. So it’s fine to start a unit in reserve mounted in a non-dedicated transport. 100% ok.

5th paragraph… this part is important.
“If units in reserve have the ‘deep strike’, ‘scout’, or ‘infiltrate’ special rule, the player must declare to his opponent, during army deployment, whether they are going to use their special rules to deep strike/outflank or they are going to enter from his own table edge when they become available.”

Weather this resolved the scouting issue is debatable, but a Vendetta can’t outflank with a non-scout/infiltrate embarked. Why – because the UNITS in reserve don’t have the ‘scout’ or infiltrate’ special rules, only one them. Space Marine scout + Land speed Storms both keep in reserve have the ‘scout’ special rule, so they can outflank.

My thoughts – sorry Vets, special weapons squads, and junior officer squads, get your outflanking pass from Creed… otherwise entire the battle from the back just like everyone else.

Again though, the Scouting move is debatable.

Gwar,

I really respect your outlook on 40k rules. Any chance you can verify what I’m saying about the Pods and outflanking units? Just want to make sure all things are considered before 2-3 Vendetta alpha strike squads start showing up in every IG army -> including my own.

Drudge Dreadnought wrote:Sorry, but it was hilarous seeing this thread title with your user name

too true.

Chubs wrote:Gwar,

I really respect your outlook on 40k rules. Any chance you can verify what I’m saying about the Pods and outflanking units? Just want to make sure all things are considered before 2-3 Vendetta alpha strike squads start showing up in every IG army -> including my own.

Waiting the same thing I haven't found anything in the BRB backing up the claim that non-scout/infiltrate can outflank if embarked in the vehicle that can.

Bombashaman wrote:Waiting the same thing I haven't found anything in the BRB backing up the claim that non-scout/infiltrate can outflank if embarked in the vehicle that can.

Have you found anything saying that non-Deep Striking Units can Arrive in a Deep Striking vehicle? No, because it is implied. If you couldn't, drop pods would not work. Why can Vets Arrive in a Valk Via Deep Strike but not via Outflank?

So, it's more of an unspoken agreement between players as a definite rule? Works for me. Hope my opponents agree.

Bombashaman wrote:So, it's more of an unspoken agreement between players as a definite rule? Works for me. Hope my opponents agree.

No, it's the rules. It is not forbidden, because it does not need to be, because the Unit inside can Outflank/Make the Scout Move/Deep Strike because it goes along with its transport. As said, if they could not Drop Pods would not work.

Sure, It makes sense that units inside outflanking (or deep striking) transports just goes along with them happily, transports confering those rules to them without a specific mention they can.

But common sense and Warhammer 40k...well, you know

Now when we are at it, is there other cases where rules doesn't specify something, but only implies such a way that most of the players agree to play by it? I'm a fairly new player, lack experience.

Bombashaman wrote:Now when we are at it, is there other cases where rules doesn't specify something, but only implies such a way that most of the players agree to play by it? I'm a fairly new player, lack experience.

One classic example is Non Dedicated transports. Some say you cannot begin inside them, and you can only begin inside dedicated transports unless you place them in reserve (where it DOES say you can).

Gwar

I don’t disagree with what you are saying about Non-dedicated transports held in reserve can being able to contain a unit. (Vendetta caring Vets, Scorpions in Flacon, Plague marines in Chaos Land Raider)

Page 94, 5th paragraph. If units in reserve have the ‘deep strike’, ‘scout’, or ‘infiltrate’ special rule, the player must declare to his opponent, during army deployment, whether they are going to use their special rules to deep strike/outflank or they are going to enter from his own table edge when they become available.”

The rules call out UNITS, how does this impact ?