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now quoting the necron codex pg 18 "Any warrior units in excess of the minimum required by the force organisation chart for the mission being played may begin the game in reserve whether the reserves special rule is in use or not. When they arrive they must emerge from a monolith portal. If there is no monolith when the unit becomes available, they will be forced to wait until a monolith becomes available."

and they phase out when there is only 25% of the starting force left

am i reading this right. cause that means if i am playing objective based and i dont have a monolith i can put into play around 70% of my force into the game leaving the rest in reserve. which means that they remain there. no phase out, since it is 30% of the starting force in reserve.

or does it count as there being (for example, if i put ALL my troops into reserve) a starting force of 0. and 75% of 0 is 0 so i phase out?

or i just cant put them into reserve...

sry if it dont make any sense...

Elegost

"25% of the starting force left" is 25% of your army.

Yes you could keep a unit in reserves waiting to come through the monolith that isn't there but that's at least 26% of your army ... good luck wining a game with only 74% of your army.

Mod:

This seems to be a rules query so I am moving it to YMDC.

elegost wrote:now quoting the necron codex pg 18 "Any warrior units in excess of the minimum required by the force organisation chart for the mission being played may begin the game in reserve whether the reserves special rule is in use or not. When they arrive they must emerge from a monolith portal. If there is no monolith when the unit becomes available, they will be forced to wait until a monolith becomes available."

Elegost

If no monolith was taken units held in reserve will become available as normal and enter via players long board edge, this is What FAQ say's .But RAW units that don't come on at end of game (still in reserve when games ends) are considered destroyed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Units in reserve come on automatically on turn 5 re BRB. Sorry for above statement, I just checked.

yes, you can avoid Phase out RaW this way. However, it is a shady move and also handicaps you by letting me use 2000 points against your 1500.

You could before.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

You can't anymore though. Page 3 kind of explains it.
If you don't have a monolith either they walk on or are destroyed and count towards phase out.

n0t_u wrote:You could before.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180146_Necrons_FAQ_2004-08_5th_Edition.pdf

You can't anymore though. Page 3 kind of explains it.
If you don't have a monolith either they walk on or are destroyed and count towards phase out.

Yes and no if i have no monoliths then i can have no destroyed monoliths, if i have no destroyed monoliths then the warriors can't be destroyed.

But as i said before feel free to do this cause I'm going to win against you and the 3/4s army

Tri wrote:Yes and no if i have no monoliths then i can have no destroyed monoliths, if i have no destroyed monoliths then the warriors can't be destroyed.

Yes, but if you have no monoliths are you allowed to declare that the necrons are coming in "through THE Monolith"? You have no Monolith so it's not possible to declare they are coming through the Monolith.

Ludovic wrote:

Tri wrote:Yes and no if i have no monoliths then i can have no destroyed monoliths, if i have no destroyed monoliths then the warriors can't be destroyed.

Yes, but if you have no monoliths are you allowed to declare that the necrons are coming in "through THE Monolith"? You have no Monolith so it's not possible to declare they are coming through the Monolith.

and your point? There is no restriction for the need of a monolith. If GW was even slightly competent they would have place the rule with the monolith. No monolith no rule ... but they didn't.

Necron armies are fairly crippled without the monolith anyway aren't they.

I just read it as if they're all destroyed you have no monoliths, therefore if you say "I'm putting these into reserve to come in through a monolith" I would say "Then they are destroyed because you have none, either they walk on or not at all". Either that or the common sense way, no monolith no teleporting through the monolith

But, really, it just ends up giving me an advantage over you, so trying to prove that it wouldn't work would just be trying to make the game more enjoyable for both players. Because in the end I still only need to remove 75% of the Necrons, in fact only 74% and maybe a C'tan to win if they do this.

But how can they not even get a FAQ aimed to resolve problems like this to work >_>

Still the slight advantage it gives you is out weight by more disadvantages.

Advantages of trying this (there are probably more):
-No phase out, therefore everything has to be killed before you lose.

Disadvantage (there are probably more):
-No monoliths limiting the list a fair bit
-Fighting at 74% strength from the start of the game
-IIRC the only models worth going to such lengths to avoid phase out are C'tan and the Monolith. Because against the smart player they'll just kill or try to kill enough Necrons to force Phase Out and remove the C'tan and the Monolith that way.

I can see this as a way to make them really have to pay attention to the C'tan though as they just can't cause phase out to remove them. That is if this loop hole actually works though.

This will hopefully all go away once GW gets rid of the most crippling rule in the game "phase out" Until then I dont think there is any tricky way to avoid phase out other than kill your opponent and avoid meat grinder battles. I think it technically is legal what you are proposing but a silly tactic to actually try to win the game. THere is a difference between trying to not lose and trying to win. Trying to win is usually your best bet.

n0t_u wrote:But how can they not even get a FAQ aimed to resolve problems like this to work >_>

FAQ? As if anyone could actually try this move and not get laughed out of the store/tournament on the spot.

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:This will hopefully all go away once GW gets rid of the most crippling rule in the game "phase out" Until then I dont think there is any tricky way to avoid phase out other than kill your opponent and avoid meat grinder battles. I think it technically is legal what you are proposing but a silly tactic to actually try to win the game. THere is a difference between trying to not lose and trying to win. Trying to win is usually your best bet.

Going a bit OT here, but I really doubt that GW will ever get rid of the phase out rule since it is what IMO defines the Necron army. They are more likelly to replace the WBB rule with FNP, whenever they get around to release the Codex, then they are to remove phase out.

Tri wrote:

Ludovic wrote:

Tri wrote:Yes and no if i have no monoliths then i can have no destroyed monoliths, if i have no destroyed monoliths then the warriors can't be destroyed.

Yes, but if you have no monoliths are you allowed to declare that the necrons are coming in "through THE Monolith"? You have no Monolith so it's not possible to declare they are coming through the Monolith.

and your point? There is no restriction for the need of a monolith. If GW was even slightly competent they would have place the rule with the monolith. No monolith no rule ... but they didn't.

Claiming that "THE Monolith" does not have to refer to an actual Monolith in your army, but then turning around and saying that you DO have to have a Monolith in order for the "because all the Monoliths in your army have been destroyed" clause to activate is inconsistent. Logically, having zero monoliths in your army that have not been destroyed is equivalent to having all your monoliths in your army destroyed.

Ludovic wrote:

Tri wrote:

Ludovic wrote:

Tri wrote:Yes and no if i have no monoliths then i can have no destroyed monoliths, if i have no destroyed monoliths then the warriors can't be destroyed.

Yes, but if you have no monoliths are you allowed to declare that the necrons are coming in "through THE Monolith"? You have no Monolith so it's not possible to declare they are coming through the Monolith.

and your point? There is no restriction for the need of a monolith. If GW was even slightly competent they would have place the rule with the monolith. No monolith no rule ... but they didn't.

Claiming that "THE Monolith" does not have to refer to an actual Monolith in your army, but then turning around and saying that you DO have to have a Monolith in order for the "because all the Monoliths in your army have been destroyed" clause to activate is inconsistent. Logically, having zero monoliths in your army that have not been destroyed is equivalent to having all your monoliths in your army destroyed.

Logically? No you cannot have destroy anything unless you've got something to destroy. Logically they shouldn't be placeable in reserve to come out of something that isn't there but they can. This is not logical at all. THIS IS GAME WORKSHOP!

Tri wrote:

Ludovic wrote:

Tri wrote:

Ludovic wrote:

Tri wrote:Yes and no if i have no monoliths then i can have no destroyed monoliths, if i have no destroyed monoliths then the warriors can't be destroyed.

Yes, but if you have no monoliths are you allowed to declare that the necrons are coming in "through THE Monolith"? You have no Monolith so it's not possible to declare they are coming through the Monolith.

and your point? There is no restriction for the need of a monolith. If GW was even slightly competent they would have place the rule with the monolith. No monolith no rule ... but they didn't.

Claiming that "THE Monolith" does not have to refer to an actual Monolith in your army, but then turning around and saying that you DO have to have a Monolith in order for the "because all the Monoliths in your army have been destroyed" clause to activate is inconsistent. Logically, having zero monoliths in your army that have not been destroyed is equivalent to having all your monoliths in your army destroyed.

Logically? No you cannot have destroy anything unless you've got something to destroy. Logically they shouldn't be placeable in reserve to come out of something that isn't there but they can. This is not logical at all. THIS IS GAME WORKSHOP!

THIS IS MADNESS!

Why are you guys so hung up on Monoliths?

This is 5th ed. All the Necron player has to do is start his warriors in normal reserves...without fielding a Monolith. This will protect from phase out. It has nothing whatsoever to do with fielding a Monolith.

You are not required to field Monolith in order to keep warriors in reserves....5th allows any unit to start in reserves. Fielding a Monolith simply changes the way your reserves enter play.

Alerian wrote:Why are you guys so hung up on Monoliths?

This is 5th ed. All the Necron player has to do is start his warriors in normal reserves...without fielding a Monolith. This will protect from phase out. It has nothing whatsoever to do with fielding a Monolith.

You are not required to field Monolith in order to keep warriors in reserves....5th allows any unit to start in reserves. Fielding a Monolith simply changes the way your reserves enter play.

Errrm, maybe because that is not what the rule says? It says if you do it they MUST emerge from the Monolith.

Alerian wrote:Why are you guys so hung up on Monoliths?

This is 5th ed. All the Necron player has to do is start his warriors in normal reserves...without fielding a Monolith. This will protect from phase out. It has nothing whatsoever to do with fielding a Monolith.

You are not required to field Monolith in order to keep warriors in reserves....5th allows any unit to start in reserves. Fielding a Monolith simply changes the way your reserves enter play.

Reason is there's the warriors reserve rule that will mean they never come out of reserves since they're waiting for a monolith to come out of. So no phase out ever.

To be honest placing 6 units of warriors in reserve has good odds for survival.
Turn one ... nothing. turn 2, so roughly 3 come in. Turn 3 another 2 come in. Turn 4 last one comes in. Ok that's simplified a bit but they're roughly the right odds. Best of all every one fights.

I think this argument is a bit pointless. I understand it is an exercise in interpreting the legality of a tricky move that avoids the Phase Out rule, but it is still pointless. It seems from the arguments and citations that yes, you can place 25% of your crons in reserve, not get a monolith, choose to have the reserves enter the mono portal but then they cant so they last untill the end of the game, so phase out is avoided. So 1) No monolith. 2) units in reserve at games end are destroyed so hope it isnt kill point mission 3) 25% of your Necrons are in reserve entire game.

What the hell is the point of doing that. You avoid phase out but compromise your entire army. Its like traveling to another continent to blow your brains out so you dont crash on the return flight. Why go to all the trouble crippling your already tough to win with army just to avoid a certain type of loss. Just my opinion though, but seems silly to me.

Gwar! wrote:

Alerian wrote:Why are you guys so hung up on Monoliths?

This is 5th ed. All the Necron player has to do is start his warriors in normal reserves...without fielding a Monolith. This will protect from phase out. It has nothing whatsoever to do with fielding a Monolith.

You are not required to field Monolith in order to keep warriors in reserves....5th allows any unit to start in reserves. Fielding a Monolith simply changes the way your reserves enter play.

Errrm, maybe because that is not what the rule says? It says if you do it they MUST emerge from the Monolith.

Errrm...yes....they must enter through a Monolith....I never said anything different.

My statement was that you are not requierd to field a Monolith, because nothing says that you MUST field a Monolith in order to place them in reserves....this is my point.

Monoliths have NOTHING to do with starting warriors in reserve...they simply allow you to bring those warriors into play.

You MAY place anything in reserves. Now that the warriors cannot come in, they will protect you from phase out.

If you build your list right, one squad of warriors in reserve will be enough to protect you from phase out.

Alerian wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Alerian wrote:Why are you guys so hung up on Monoliths?

This is 5th ed. All the Necron player has to do is start his warriors in normal reserves...without fielding a Monolith. This will protect from phase out. It has nothing whatsoever to do with fielding a Monolith.

You are not required to field Monolith in order to keep warriors in reserves....5th allows any unit to start in reserves. Fielding a Monolith simply changes the way your reserves enter play.

Errrm, maybe because that is not what the rule says? It says if you do it they MUST emerge from the Monolith.

Errrm...yes....they must enter through a Monolith....I never said anything different.

My statement was that you are not requierd to field a Monolith, because nothing says that you MUST field a Monolith in order to place them in reserves....this is my point.

Monoliths have NOTHING to do with starting warriors in reserve...they simply allow you to bring those warriors into play.

You MAY place anything in reserves. Now that the warriors cannot come in, they will protect you from phase out.

If you build your list right, one squad of warriors in reserve will be enough to protect you from phase out.

How ever Necron Warriors have a special rule stating that they may be placed in reserves to come out of a monolith. so unlike every other unit you may ...
a) Start them in reserves to walk in from their table edge
or
b) Arrive via a monolith portal
... you must select a or b not both. If you select (b) and have no monolith then the unit sits around till the end of the game and is then destroyed since it couldn't come on. Fielding a monolith is in no way required for warriors to go into reserve (b) however it is required for them to arrive.

How has no one already pointed out the obvious logical problem with this whole tactic?

25% of your army = phase out = no army

26% of your army that can't come on to the board = NO ARMY

You lose the game either way and your opponent will still get points for killing your whole army either way. The only difference is that if you "avoid phase out" your opponent only has to kill 74% of your army to win instead of 75%.

Mike Leon wrote:How has no one already pointed out the obvious logical problem with this whole tactic?

25% of your army = phase out = no army

26% of your army that can't come on to the board = NO ARMY

You lose the game either way and your opponent will still get points for killing your whole army either way. The only difference is that if you "avoid phase out" your opponent only has to kill 74% of your army to win instead of 75%.

This is why we need a facepalm smiley.

Being in reserves does not trigger Phase out.

Correct. But the units in reserve are still off the board and not in the game.

So if they come on later, the last 1% could still be killed and you could still be phased out.

Or, if they can't come on at all (which is what people are talking about here) then your opponent can just take all the rest of the turns of the game to do whatever he wants.

Gwar! wrote:This is why we need a facepalm smiley.

YES!!!!!

It is not just me!

There's this odd bit in the Daemonhunter codex where it says that an inquisitor can take a retinue of zero or more models, and that the retinue can take a land raider. So, the question arises whether the zero sized retinue can ever be considered destroyed. This seems to be the same type of question.

The Necron FAQ says that it's the Necron player's choice whether to put the warriors into Monolith reserve or regular reserve, despite the codex saying that they must arrive through the monolith. The FAQ also says that if all of the monoliths are destroyed and there are warriors waiting to enter through a Monolith, then the warriors are destroyed and count against phase out. Since there are no non-destroyed monoliths in the army, how can the warriors not be counted as destroyed? Or should the deployment phase of every game involve an in depth discussion on the nature of existence and whether rules which presuppose the existence of absent models can be used?

If a Necron player is so desperate to avoid dealing with phase out that this sort of option becomes desirable, wouldn't it just be easier to ask the other person to play a game without phase out?

solkan wrote:Or should the deployment phase of every game involve an in depth discussion on the nature of existence and whether rules which presuppose the existence of absent models can be used?

Wait Wait Wait just hold on a minute. You mean you DON'T do this???????

solkan wrote:The FAQ also says that if all of the monoliths are destroyed and there are warriors waiting to enter through a Monolith, then the warriors are destroyed and count against phase out. Since there are no non-destroyed monoliths in the army, how can the warriors not be counted as destroyed?

The lack of a non-destroyed monolith does not presuppose that all monoliths were destroyed.

The troops would just be held in reserve till the end of the game when (as per Necron codex pg 18) they would count as destroyed and give kill points if applicable. I doubt it's a very practical strategy for victory, but it's certainly a possible one.

I don't know why everyone is so hung up on only having 74% of your army on the field. There are Necron things that don't count towards phase out. And in most deployments your opponent won't have all his army on the filed at the same time either. Far from 25% of your points it could be as little as a 10 man warrior squad costing 180pts.