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So I recently started playing Warmachine, having played Warhammer for many years. As you know, privateer press is a relatively new company and some if its sculpts, especially early ones, are not particullarly appealing. Today I went to my LGS to search for a proxy for Eiryss, whose model I particularly hate. Now, I'm not cheap and I do believe in supporting the companies that make these products but I also feel that its wrong to support bad art just because the rules tell you to. When I asked the clerk, from whom I probably bought $300 worth of stuff over the last few months whether a particular model would serve as a cool replacement he said something like, "Yes, but no one will play you with it." Now this model looks Almost exactly like the one I was replacing, down to the weapons. When pressed as to why he told me, "Because Its an insult to other players who spent X amount of money on the hobby." So apparently it wasn't enough that every OTHER model I own is privateer press. But what really gets me is his logic. How is HE being insulted by playing against a better looking, (and better painted) model. According to him, that ONE proxy would invalidate not only any tournament play (which I can understand, sort of) but that most casual players would refuse to let me use it as well. If that turns out to be the attitude among the local Warmachine club then count me out! What are your thoughts?

Join a different club?

personally i don't mind vs. against proxies (as long as they tell me before the match and continue to remind me), my mate once forgot his hive tyrant and he replaced it with a carnifex model, of course he told me before the match so it wasn't a problem but when we explained it to the GWS manager he only let it go because he knew my mate did have a hive tyrant.

Thoughts: Those people are ridiculous. Get the proxy.

I think that's a little extreme. I understand why tournaments do it but as long as you are using actual sculpted miniatures that look something like what you are proxying and you tell me beforehand who cares? A $10 well sculpted model by X company does not insult people who bought the official $10 model that I am aware of. A nice model is a nice model.

I think buddy was trying to sell you another $300 worth of stuff. There are limits to proxying, but from what you describe it isn't that much of a stretch. It's not like you're using gnoblars for Chaos Chosen or anything.

Now me being new to the hordes/warmachine scene might be different than other more experienced and veteran players, but i wouldnt care in a casual game or possibly even a tourney game, as long as it was the same size mind you and it sounds like it is, so i have no idea what this guys problem is.

Now me being new to the hordes/warmachine scene might be different than other more experienced and veteran players, but i wouldnt care in a casual game or possibly even a tourney game, as long as it was the same size mind you and it sounds like it is, so i have no idea what this guys problem is.

Tell em to lick their models

As long as it's not a Dr Pepper can standing in for a Carnifex or something, whats the big deal.

Talk to the player beforehand, and if he refuses - you probably don't want to be playing them anyway.

Sounds cool to me, I proxied some models in my Khador army because I thought the normal ones were ugly.

It's not like you are trying to pass a cardboard box off as a "scratch built" landraider. I once saw Lego Bionicles used as a defiler (was in a tournament I was running, apparently my rules on conversions were not clear enough. Now it specifically says no lego).

If someone refused to play a friendly game with you because you have replaced one model for a better looking one, then they probably are the kind of poor-sport that you don't want to play in the first place.

Glad to hear a few of you agree. And you're probably right that those people would not be fun to play with anyway. If anyone's curious I'm using this model http://www.coolminiornot.com/190950 for Eiryss. Note that both have a sword and crossbow.

There are anal Warmachine players, just like there are anal 40k players.

I have two Leviathans and because I was bored, I swapped the arms around on one of them. One of the guys in the group I was playing with at the time was convinced that the only reason anyone would ever do such a thing was if they were trying to gain an advantage by trying to switch damage columns.

Friendly games: correct base size and approximate weaponry.

Sponsored Events: check with your tournament organizer.

In a pinch: Write army lists around the models you like. It's why I played
so much Amon Ad Raza in my first year of Warmachine (it was a bad, bad year)

ph34r wrote:Thoughts: Those people are ridiculous. Get the proxy.

Better thought, -that clerk- is ridiculous, get the proxy... as for the the money thing, you're -BUYING- the proxy, arn't you? Not like it's that much more expensive than some good looking reaper figure.

But so far, the only thing I think you can say is that that one clerk is a jerk, get to know the guys you're actually playing with then decide, and get someone else to ring you up next time..

The clerk was just mirroring the attitude promoted by a frighteningly large proportion of people who play Privateer Press games. Go over to their forums and take a look around. Peek into the threads that talk about it, or strat your own thread. That can be a real elitist buunch of people. Now, the Hordesmachine players in my area are really cool, and I have Khador and Legion myself to the tune of about 4000 points apiece. But I would play against your proxy any day of the week, especially if you did some converting or a bang-up paint job. Even though I hate facing Eye-russ. But some people would certainly look down upon you, and some of those in the aforementioned proportion who are guilty of Greater Jackassery would have the gall to lecture you about it, promise.

Go over there and take a look for yourself. It'll be an eye-opener.

I'm a bit self conscious of this. That's mostly because I have a big 40k ork army with a lot of scratch built stuff in it. I've never gotten anything but compliments on my models in friendly games and I even managed to get through round 1 of an ard boyz tournament with a bunch of scratch built battlewagons. I went to the fantasy ard boyz tournament today and I dropped one of my hydras from my list because it's made by Reaper. Everyone who I've fielded it againts has said that it looks better than the original GW model but when it comes to a tournament you have to follow the rules.

It has been awhile since I played WM/H but I believe they have/had a rule that prohibited even using converted models. It was because mkI used true LOS and conversions could exploit that. Not sure if mkII is the same.

Personally I also have an alternate Eiryss model that I got from Reaper, and my wife has a metal Rackam fig for hers. At the store I played at no one had a problem with it. So long as you are not surprising people with it mid game I think most players will be cool with it.

I dont mind proxying at all in friendly games and think anyone who does is kinda being pretentious really (as long as it's still a miniature!). Tournament play I understand a bit more since it's "official".

Well, by all this attitude then conversions shouldn't be allowed either as it's an insult to those who use the miniatures as sculpted

Seriously though, as long as its some models that look like what they are in game and not say, a bunch of 2 pence coins, a couplr of coinscouple of buttons and a cardboard box (arguably rhinos could be the latter in game ofc )does it matter? The rogue trader rulebook even came with pages at the back with counters on them to represent the orks and marines in the small scenario there for people who didnt have models.
Part of gaming is finding miniatures you like, or converting them to be what you want, that model you got to replace the other looks very cool I don't see a problem with it. Should 40k players have refused to play my DA because I converted a captain (accidently, it just ended up looking so good I used it as a commander all the time) from a standard plastic marine and a few odds and ends I had laying around?
Elitistism in this hobby is ridiculous.

I am a firm believer that terminators should not be able to disembark and assault from a pert plus bottle..

However conversions are awseome and sometimes better than the original. Units that 'play as' other units are perfectly fine too, as long as they kinda look like what they're supposed to be representing.

This thread immediately reminded me of this:

Personally I consider it a deliberate insult if someone uses any unconverted figures or official models in an army.

I have spent a lot of time and effort to research and convert unofficial models.

Oh man KillKrazy, I'd insult you so hard then. My models that are mostly unconverted and official would 'bout give you a heart attack.

i have had some kids give me the most pathetic proxies, one kid had a tau gun drone with about 9 pulse rifle glued to it, so it had 9 shots :S and he had JUST the turret of the hammer head gun, and it was a hammer head, not to mention a guard player with a squad of 20 guys, and armed with 2 grenaid launchers 3 flamers a lascanon and a bolter?

In my local GW, I often tell them about the conversions I am going to be using.
I bought a Fantasy Sorcerer to convert into a Ork WeirdBoy. They wanted me to bring it in when it was done, to see how it looks!
They even oooh!'ed and aaah!'ed over my kinder-kan konversions!
So long as you are spending some money on the hobby, staff should be encouraging you, not trying to alienate you!
If your whole army is lego and cardboard, then a store has a right to say "Hey, aren't you going to buy anything, to help support the tables and scenery you use every week?", but if you just use a few proxies that you bought at that store, where is the problem?

Didn't there used to be a rule that allowed scratch built vehicles in 40k? I don't know as I don't play in tournaments due to the tournament cheese like dropping drop pods into all 4 corners of a map empty, just to contest, or that gay eldar jetbike trick where they just avoid you all game, then race to the corners on turn 5....

Table quarters aren't used too much anymore.
There is no current rule about scratchbuilt vehicles.

As others have stated already, go ahead and buy the model and use it. If you point out the simple proxy before the game and it's not something that will confuse your oponent most reasonable players not going to have an issue with it.
Note I say "reasonable". Of course you will always have what I call the "WHATDOYOUMEANYOUPLAYITONORDINARYPAPER!!!???!11!!!" crowd that will object to that sort of thing. But those are the kind of people you should avoid playing with anyway. As someone pointed out in one of my own "if this proxy ok" threads, this sort of thing is a handy "a--hole detector". If they make a serious objection at the begining of the game to a reasonable proxy, then you should just pack up your army and find another opponent.

On a related note, I feel you about disliking the look of a current "official" model and wanting to use a stand in. I've got a 40k Space Marine army that is painted up in the RT era Space Wolf paint sceme. I've looked at the preview SW codex and plan on running it when it hits the stores. I also plan on trying out the Ragnar Blackmane character, but I hate...absolutely hate...the official figure. I actually dislike the entire "huuurrr we are fantasy barbarians pretending to be vikings in space!!!11!!" look of most SW models, so such an over the top sculpt would be out of place in my fairly austere army in any event. So I plan on using the old Jes Goodwin Space wolf Captain with the wolf head helmet to stand in for him.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2006smcommanders-h.htm
Once again, I seriously doubt anyone will have an issue about such a proxy.

TR

Lord Manimal wrote:Didn't there used to be a rule that allowed scratch built vehicles in 40k? I don't know as I don't play in tournaments due to the tournament cheese like dropping drop pods into all 4 corners of a map empty, just to contest, or that gay eldar jetbike trick where they just avoid you all game, then race to the corners on turn 5....

Vehicle design rules were published in Chapter Approved a long time ago.

They allowed players to design and cost their own vehicles, which could be kitbashed out of GW models, or from other sources, or even scratch built. The rules were dropped years ago as GW policy is to promote its own kits.

I have a photocopy of them somewhere.

It isn't too hard to design a points system for vehicles, as the factors can be worked out from the points of existing vehicles. A vehicle is a collection of some weapons, plus some special rules (tank, transport, skimmer) multiplied by factors for armour value and speed.

At the moment, vehicle values are rather varied because of the switch from 4e to 5e. The older codex vehicles are (IMO anyway) a bit expensive compared to the newer codexes.

It would be fun to put together a fan VDR for use as house rules. By coordinating through Teh Internets, a fair and balanced system could be produced and popularised, in the same way as the INAT FAQ.

A guy at our FLGS threw together a few cereal boxes, spray-painted them black, threw on an effigy of Mork (or possibly Gork) where the head roughly was, and proclaimed them to be 3 bonafide Stompas. I don't think anyone was too keen to play them. (And the little kids who had hastily bought the 'real' ones were none too pleased that such cheap, shoddy imitations were being used.