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The Great Wolf:

Wolf Guard units count as Troops in any army that includes Logan Grimnar.

Pack Leaders:

Before the battle, each Wolf Guard has the option of being split off from his pack and assigned to lead a different pack...

If I have an army including Logan and I take one unit of Wolf Guard as troops which I then break out as pack leaders for Long Fang squads, then does the Long Fang squad count as scoring as long as the Wolf Guard pack leader is still alive at the end of the fight?

If these are all of the relevant rules, I would say no, as the particular wolf guard isn't in a wolf guard unit.

We are missing the rules to definitively answer this. My best guess is that you would treat the Pack Leader as an upgrade character to the squad, which would make the Pack Leader no longer a Troops unit.

Additionally, not being an IC, I don't think he reverts back to troop if he is the sole survivor left of the Long Fang squad he was attached to.

I have to say No here as well. "Wolf Guard" do not become scoring in an army with Logan Grimnar,Only "Wolf Guard UNITS" do.

Just on as a side question, does the wolfguard replace the sergeant? or is he in addition to? Just because it seems like then you'd lose the ability to split fire.

Scalp wrote:Just on as a side question, does the wolfguard replace the sergeant? or is he in addition to? Just because it seems like then you'd lose the ability to split fire.

No Space Wolf Units have Sergeants. The only thing that comes close is a Long Fang Squad Leader, who still is not a "Sergeant".

And no, he doesn't replace him.

So lets say that the Long Fangs are wiped out except for the attached Wolf Guard leader, then he still wouldn't count as scoring?

At that point he is a Wolf Guard unit, so would score...I think

nosferatu1001 wrote:At that point he is a Wolf Guard unit, so would score...I think

No, he isn't. He doesn't count as Scoring. He is a Unit of one Wolf Guard model, not a Wolf Guard Unit. Petty difference, but an important one.

Actually, a unit of one wolf guard model that's been reduced to one from a wolf guard pack, would count as scoring.
He's a unit of one Wolf Guard who had been detached to a long fang pack, so he'd count as a member of that pack (at least by my common sense - YMMV). (So no, you wouldn't get a killpoint for the long fangs, as one member is still alive.)

No. wolf guard units count as scoring. Once assigned to a separate squad they become a member of that squad.

I'm just going to roll with the idea that "counts as troops" = "scoring". I'm still on the fence about the issue, and don't want to bring the argument here.

Going by how a number of the posters on Dakka would play the Wolf Guard, then there are some conclusions we can make.

If all the Long Fang packs in the example were annihilated, then only 3 Kill Points would be earned; not 4. This assumes that a pack of 3 Wolf Guard was created solely for the purpose of leading the Long Fangs. To gain this protection, it is not difficult to conclude that the ability to score would be lost upon joining a pack.

For that matter, consider Skyclaws with a Wolf Guard leader being able to score. Hide them somewhere in range until turn 5.

I know that I'm arguing RAI, and I'm only guessing at that. Yet, it doesn't seem as though taking Logan should give you an all scoring army.

Armandloft wrote:For that matter, consider Skyclaws with a Wolf Guard leader being able to score. Hide them somewhere in range until turn 5.

When the 6th edition SW codex comes out, we will see. Until then, Wolf Guard cannot Join Skyclaws.

Suppose I have 5 squads of various dudes in my army. In addition I take a unit of wolf guard, and split them up to join the squads. If i lose all those squads then my opponent gains an extra kill point for finishing off all the wolf guard right?

Im under the assumption you play it like the old dex, where you buy this massive squad of wolf guard and assign around, rather then buying as upgrade characters.

Eidolon wrote:Suppose I have 5 squads of various dudes in my army. In addition I take a unit of wolf guard, and split them up to join the squads. If i lose all those squads then my opponent gains an extra kill point for finishing off all the wolf guard right?

Wrong. You do not give up a KP for the Wolf Guard Unit, as the enemy never kills it.

Gwar! wrote:

Eidolon wrote:Suppose I have 5 squads of various dudes in my army. In addition I take a unit of wolf guard, and split them up to join the squads. If i lose all those squads then my opponent gains an extra kill point for finishing off all the wolf guard right?

Wrong. You do not give up a KP for the Wolf Guard Unit, as the enemy never kills it.

Kill points are obtained when a unit is destroyed. It doesn't matter if the enemy kills it or not actually. That's why my opponent gets kill points if one of my units deep strike mishaps and kills itself.

So the question is actually whether someone considers a unit of wolf guard as destroyed if they are split entirely amongst other squads and no longer exist as a unit. This is going to end up needing to be answered by the GW FAQ, there simply are no given rules for how to conclusively handle it.

Based on what rules we have currently, anything that ceases to exist is a kill point. That would make a fully divided up squad of Wolf Guard a free kill point to your opponent. That's how I see the current RAW, but I'll be shocked if it is how this was intended to work.

No, it cannot be destroyed, because it never exists to begin with. They are split up BEFORE deployment. If I never deploy a Wolf Guard Unit, it can never be destroyed, so can never give up a kill point.

Perhaps i should have been clearer. I have 5 squads of grey hunters. I buy 5 wolf guard, put one in each grey hunter squad. I wasnt saying I give up a kill point just for splitting up the wolf guard. But if all 5 grey hunter squads are dead does my opponent get one. I would assume not, but it never hurts to ask.

Eidolon wrote:Perhaps i should have been clearer. I have 5 squads of grey hunters. I buy 5 wolf guard, put one in each grey hunter squad. I wasnt saying I give up a kill point just for splitting up the wolf guard. But if all 5 grey hunter squads are dead does my opponent get one. I would assume not, but it never hurts to ask.

In this case your opponent would get 5 Kill Points.

Gwar! wrote:

Eidolon wrote:Perhaps i should have been clearer. I have 5 squads of grey hunters. I buy 5 wolf guard, put one in each grey hunter squad. I wasnt saying I give up a kill point just for splitting up the wolf guard. But if all 5 grey hunter squads are dead does my opponent get one. I would assume not, but it never hurts to ask.

In this case your opponent would get 5 Kill Points.

this is because if you have zero in a unit you can not remove the last model its the same as diving zero wait no sh...

You either;

Loose the "unit" status and that model can benefit from the rules of the unit their joining (Essentially counting as another trooper in the unit) or the wolfguard retains the "unit" status, has issues joining another unit (Only IC's can per the BGB, but the Codex does trump the BGB..) and retains its Scoring status annd does not benefit from any of the squads special rules.

Or C: Somthing else (A compromise or somthing new entirely) when further rules (which are essentially missing from the description of this unique mechanic) are released with the FAQ/Errata/What ever GW prints.

I'm with Gwar! on the Kill Points, it's the same as combat squadding marines and blobbing up guard, it's an option which you can take before deployment which may effect the number of kill points available by causing a Wolf Guard unit to cease to exist.

WHat I want to know is if Logan has the relentless rule can a long fang pack he joins shoot on the first turn they arrive via drop pod?/

beef wrote:WHat I want to know is if Logan has the relentless rule can a long fang pack he joins shoot on the first turn they arrive via drop pod?/

Yes. Though its not that he has the Relentless rule, it's because he gives the squad he is with Relentless.

Gwar! wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:At that point he is a Wolf Guard unit, so would score...I think

No, he isn't. He doesn't count as Scoring. He is a Unit of one Wolf Guard model, not a Wolf Guard Unit. Petty difference, but an important one.

I would say that it need not be so complex. The reason why the lone Wolf Guard wouldn't be scoring is because he was attached to the Long Fangs to lead. So, if the Long Fangs die and he's all that's left, it's still a Long Fangs Pack, just the sole model being a Wolf Guard (using that profile and any purchased gear).

Hopefully that's a simpler way to describe it.

Gwar! wrote:

beef wrote:WHat I want to know is if Logan has the relentless rule can a long fang pack he joins shoot on the first turn they arrive via drop pod?/

Yes. Though its not that he has the Relentless rule, it's because he gives the squad he is with Relentless.

There was some question on whether due to them being held in reserve they are tecknically not attached to grimnar until they arrive and Grimnar has to choose the rule at the start of his turn BUT he is not with them untill the movement phase (or he is not on the board ) or somthing like that

No, he is attached to them - ICs can join units in reserve just fine, its how they arrive as one unit with a single roll.

Gwar! wrote:

Armandloft wrote:For that matter, consider Skyclaws with a Wolf Guard leader being able to score. Hide them somewhere in range until turn 5.

When the 6th edition SW codex comes out, we will see. Until then, Wolf Guard cannot Join Skyclaws.

Oops, looks like I still have some 3rd edition codex cruft to purge.

beef wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

beef wrote:WHat I want to know is if Logan has the relentless rule can a long fang pack he joins shoot on the first turn they arrive via drop pod?/

Yes. Though its not that he has the Relentless rule, it's because he gives the squad he is with Relentless.

There was some question on whether due to them being held in reserve they are tecknically not attached to grimnar until they arrive and Grimnar has to choose the rule at the start of his turn BUT he is not with them untill the movement phase (or he is not on the board ) or somthing like that

Does his rule say you may choose the ability at the start of the turn or during the movement phase?

RustyKnight wrote:

beef wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

beef wrote:WHat I want to know is if Logan has the relentless rule can a long fang pack he joins shoot on the first turn they arrive via drop pod?/

Yes. Though its not that he has the Relentless rule, it's because he gives the squad he is with Relentless.

There was some question on whether due to them being held in reserve they are tecknically not attached to grimnar until they arrive and Grimnar has to choose the rule at the start of his turn BUT he is not with them untill the movement phase (or he is not on the board ) or somthing like that

Does his rule say you may choose the ability at the start of the turn or during the movement phase?

Start of the Turn (note that Turn = Player turn so you get to pick at the start of your opponents turn as well).