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If the emperor has such a powerful mind, why don't they clone his body and then put his soul in his new body? Problem solved!
If only it was that easy...

And how would they 'put his soul into a new body' as you said. If they could, why would he need a clone? Couldn't they just use any old schmuck?

I think this needs a good old...

metallifan wrote:And how would they 'put his soul into a new body' as you said. If they could, why would he need a clone? Couldn't they just use any old schmuck?

I think this needs a good old...

His current body is beyond repair because of horus. And because HE'S THE EMPORER the brain of any other body would be ripped apart.
And somewhere in the fluff I heard that they cloned horus, but the clone was killed.

What would happen if the Emperor was revived? There would be a second Heresy, thats what. The believers and the unbelievers would massacre each other and the Imperium would be crippled. So, the Emperor now has a new body. His mind is no longer in the Warp. What would happen to the Astronomican? Who or what is going to keep the Chaos Gods occupied? What would happen to the faith driven prayers and miracles of the Ecclesiarchy? More importantly, could the Emperor be killed a second time ( without recourse to the Golden Throne ) now that he has a physical body?

All the above points were presented in the old Inquisitor article about the factions of said organization. Some factions pursue knowledge about the possible resurrection of the Emperor. Opposing factions hold the belief that resurrecting the Emperor is a Very Bad Idea(TM).

tigonesskay wrote:

metallifan wrote:And how would they 'put his soul into a new body' as you said. If they could, why would he need a clone? Couldn't they just use any old schmuck?

I think this needs a good old...

His current body is beyond repair because of horus. And because HE'S THE EMPORER the brain of any other body would be ripped apart.
And somewhere in the fluff I heard that they cloned horus, but the clone was killed.

Yes, we all know that, but you haven't answered my question - How would they stick his SOUL into someone else's body, and if they could, why haven't they done it already? I'm sure Tigurius would make an excellent candidate, being both a member of the Poster Boys chapter and rumoured to be the second most powerful psyker in the galaxy (Next to the Emperor, naturally)

I haven't read anything about a Horus clone. You might be thinking of Alpharius and Omegon. Alpharius is -rumoured- to be dead, though this is pretty likely to be a fabricated tale to boost morale among the Imperium.

Anyway, again, Thread Lock.

PleaseNthanks

ADD: A-P, those are the exact points I actually brought up in "The end of the 40K Universe!" thread. Kudos to you for also considering them . But it just reinforces the fact that this is better off posted in one of the multiple "End of time" threads that already exist in the Background forum.

Horus was cloned by the Emperor's Children, much to the anger of the Sons of Horus/Black Legion, who eventually destroyed the clone.

Rather than calling for the thread to be locked, as it is a perfectly valid question, how about we just have your posts in it deleted and you go read a different thread?

Ah, good to know. Guess I should've seen Fabius trying something like that, yea.

Because it's not really that valid a question, actually. The Imperium -can- clone, they've just outlawed it with a few exceptions (Kreig, for example). And if they've outlawed it, they've done it for a reason. Needless to say they aren't going to risk messing with the Emperor in that way.

Plus, they aren't Dark Eldar. They don't have a means of extracting souls (Or a means for putting them in either, for that matter), so I can't see how they would possibly do that.

So instead of my posts being deleted, why don't we get a mod to lock it on account of it being an unnecessary question.

But you don't know what their reasons are! If the rules can be broken for Kreig, why not for the Emperor? Presumably there are good reasons, but you don't know what they are, so there is plenty of scope for a thread speculating on them. They must be pretty fantastic reasons, considering the potential benefits it could bring.

Potential reasons for not cloning the Emperor:

1) His genetic material is too complex and unique in some way to be cloneable.
2) Attempts have been made, but just created ordinary humans (after all, it is the Emperor's spirit, born of thousands of shamen, that is unique, not necessarily his DNA) and attempts to draw the Emperor into the body failed.
3) The emperor himself prevented the attempt, as he sees more benefit in remaining as a warp entity.
4) The scientists decided that it was the cloning process that introduced flaws into the Emperor's DNA when he used it to create the Primarchs, and decided it was not worth it.
5) By the time they got around to trying to clone the Emperor, there was not enough living material salvageable to clone from, and/or they did not get enough DNA before putting the Emperor in the Golden Throne.
5) There is a gap in the fluff, and GW haven't bothered getting around to plugging it yet.

I doubt there is a single necessary thread in the fluff section. I do not think it is not your job to decide what may or may not to be of interest to people and prevent them discussing it. (Especially seeing as t led to you yourself learning something new.)

Thing is with Kreig, they're just cloning average humans If they screw it up, big deal. They shoot the failures and try again. They try cloning the Emperor and you'd have hundreds of Imperial cults and millions of religious fanatics battering down your doors for such sacrilege. Consider it like the Catholic and Protestant churches. They both worship god, but they both think the other is doing it wrong. Stupid? Absolutely.

Just like they both view the other as worshipping wrong, the Imperium would view cloning the Emperor the same way. Some would be furious, and would rally against those cloning him, considering it to be desecration of a living god. Others would be all for cloning the Emperor, and the Imperium would again be torn apart by civil war before the Emperor's cloning was even complete.

Even if he survived long enough to mature into adulthood, he would still never be fully accepted as the true Emperor. Many would still see the dead guy on the throne as the true Emperor, and the clone as a heresy and an imposter at worst, and a mere avatar of His Glory at best. The civil war would likely end the Imperium utterly. So it's not even really worth asking 'why'. Just look at history. What happened when France appointed their own Pope as the true father of Catholicism? Europe was torn between two Popes. This would be much the same way. Some questions are better off as fleeting thoughts.


You're right, none are necessary. But there are those that are unnecessary, even in that crowd. I would slip this in with those unnecessary questions, as even though it's somewhat valid in terms of why they don't or why they can't do it, it's still one of those questions that doesn't need to be given it's own thread.

Fifty wrote:Horus was cloned by the Emperor's Children, much to the anger of the Sons of Horus/Black Legion, who eventually destroyed the clone.

That's why i asked the question for the reason. If they cloned Horus why not the emperor? I don't remember if the fluff stated why they destroyed the clone, but I figured the black legion felt the clone wasn't up to the orginal. I surpised that nobody if even once tried to clone the emperor even if in secret.

tigonesskay wrote:

Fifty wrote:Horus was cloned by the Emperor's Children, much to the anger of the Sons of Horus/Black Legion, who eventually destroyed the clone.

That's why i asked the question for the reason. If they cloned Horus why not the emperor? I don't remember if the fluff stated why they destroyed the clone, but I figured the black legion felt the clone wasn't up to the orginal. I surpised that nobody if even once tried to clone the emperor even if in secret.

I always thought they destroyed the clone (and Horus' body) because Failabaddon thought of him as "weak" for getting owned by the Emperor (and probably because he didn't want competition).

I think is possible. But what we need is some of the False Emperors DNA.

Perhaps track down a primarch/primarchs corpse.

Deathbot wrote:

tigonesskay wrote:

Fifty wrote:Horus was cloned by the Emperor's Children, much to the anger of the Sons of Horus/Black Legion, who eventually destroyed the clone.

That's why i asked the question for the reason. If they cloned Horus why not the emperor? I don't remember if the fluff stated why they destroyed the clone, but I figured the black legion felt the clone wasn't up to the orginal. I surpised that nobody if even once tried to clone the emperor even if in secret.

I always thought they destroyed the clone (and Horus' body) because Failabaddon thought of him as "weak" for getting owned by the Emperor (and probably because he didn't want competition).

Who knows if bile didn't keep some of the DNA of horus or any of the other primarchs in order to create a new legion?

metallifan wrote: You're right, none are necessary. But there are those that are unnecessary, even in that crowd. I would slip this in with those unnecessary questions, as even though it's somewhat valid in terms of why they don't or why they can't do it, it's still one of those questions that doesn't need to be given it's own thread.

Hmm, I see someone has allowing themselves the luxury of a little "nerd rage".....

Arn't you forgetting just one small, and possibly, insignificant factor here.....yes, its called Fantasy, just like Walt Disneys castle, its a place where all your dreams can come true....

Isn't it a little (lot) stupid asking "How are they going to move his soul?"....I mean, if only that were the only unexplained happenstance in the WH40K setting?!?!? How does the almost dead Emp feed off the souls of countless psykers? How did the Chaos Gods steal the Primarchs? How does a Space Marine stand all day with his legs so far apart?.....

I think the OP has raised a valid point, to which, yes there is no answer, but, maybe it could be used as a plot line in a game of Inquisitor, or Dark Heresy, or maybe just picked around like left over turkey....either way, let the Mods decide what threads need locking, and either play the game or walk away!

metallifan wrote: Consider it like the Catholic and Protestant churches. They both worship god, but they both think the other is doing it wrong. Stupid? Absolutely.

And here's where we could use that thread lock.

@Delephont: Do you have some sort of White Knight radar, man?

As has been hinted at, the Primarchs are supposedly "lesser" clones of the Emperor. That work is supposedly irrepeatable, even by the Emperor himself. Thus, if the Emperor himself could not make more "lesser" clones of himself, how could anyone make a clone of him? One wonders, along these lines, whether the Horus clone was actually a copy of Horus or just some bid on the part of EC to bait Abaddon (just as planned). I mean, if clones of Primarchs are so easy to come by why not just clone Horus again? Or a thousand more times and have a legion called "Horus of Horus"? You dawg, I herd you liek . . . etc.

Metallifan originally raised a good objection. Even if it were possible to create a biological copy of the Emperor's body, how would you get his mind/soul in there? Would he possess it, like a daemon? Maybe his other remark can give us some direction: would the Eldar help humanity out with some sort of Emperor wraith construct? Cool model, I'd bet.

delephont wrote:
How does a Space Marine stand all day with his legs so far apart?.....

Buns of steel.

delephont wrote:How does a Space Marine stand all day with his legs so far apart?.....

Now you understand all the screaming. That just leaves the baldness and pointing.

Kilkrazy wrote:Buns of steel.

You mean Lyman's Buttock?

Oh, and Metallifan, take a lesson from from KillKrazy. This is how you deal with threads you don't like. I believe it is a variation on Master Frazzled's technique, KK? Although I see you have opted to leave out the signature picture of a wiener dog.

How about putting him into a dreadnought,but that wouldn't be possible because would direct Astronomican,battle chaos gods and keep the webway portal sealed.

Manchu wrote: [
@Delephont: Do you have some sort of White Knight radar, man?

To be honest, I'm not sure how to take this, however, I get the jist of where the statement comes from.

Whenever a thread appears that questions the validity of some of the WH40K Cannon, people tend to respond in absolutes, meaning: xxx could happen because, or xxx could not happen because.....etc, and this gets my own nerd rage on the boil. On whose authority do we have the right to dictate what can or can't be when the creators (GW) can't seem to decide.

You own conclusion regarding the clones of Horus, while well thought out and, dare I say, plausible, is just a flight of fantasy....yes, its possible that the EC did mean to bait Abbadon, but on the other hand its a lot more plausible, that GW just forgot its own fluff "rules" and basically fudged up their own texts....or, maybe the cloning process can be repeated, which means the Emp can in fact, be cloned!

No one has said it would be easy to clone the Emp, just that it could be tried.

White Knight duty over!

Oh, you.

We've gone down this road before, no need to re-familiarize me with the "everyone's opinion is worthwhile" line, which I firmly (would like to) believe. Unless there are femarines involved. Unless we talk about how they do their hair. Unless no one actually talks about how they do their hair and we instead talk about Space Marine baldness. Unless I write a little poem about Space Marine baldness. (That was actually a thread, mon ami, and I'm sad you weren't there for it.)

Honestly, however, you do seem to home in on comments like Metallifan's almost as if the poor, oppressed OP has just flicked on the Delephont signal.



Whenever the validity of an argument over fluff is raised, Delephont will be there . . . (cue music).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Presenting (drum roll please) . . . . the thread I just mentioned!

Manchu wrote:....noise....

Oh, I see....well, apologies, for a second there I thought you might have something of worth to type....I guess you're bored.

Delephont wrote:

Manchu wrote:....noise....

Oh, I see....well, apologies, for a second there I thought you might have something of worth to type....I guess you're bored.

There's the old Delephont spirit of total hypocrisy! Alive and well, very good!

I'll tell you who has the authority... I HAS THE AUTHORITY, FOR I AM A FLUFF MONKEY! :p

Nah, I jest

I'm not dealing in absolutes, but cloning the Emperor is highly unlikely becaaaaause:

(a) The technology simply doesn't exist, the Emperor's genetic code is beyond the understanding of pretty much anyone in the 40K universe (if you thought Space Marines and Primarchs were biologically confusing, you ain't seen nothing yet) and cloning him would be an impossible job for the technologically backwards Imperium.

(b) Trying to clone hiom could lead to religious outcry, plus I don't see the Custodes taking to kindly to someone trying to get a sample

(c) The Emperor's sons the Primarchs were clones (or as close to clones as you can get) and it was the Emperor himself who wrought his soul into them. I don't think there would be anyone else capable of transferring the Emperor's soul.

(d) and finally, I don't think he wants to be cloned. The Emperor has a plan, and being upon the Mortal Plain in the form of a clone isn't one of them.

So you pretty much second all the stuff mentioned?

The most important reason, as you know DLS, is that we cannot have the plot moving along, no no no.

Dark Lord Seanron wrote:I'll tell you who has the authority... I HAS THE AUTHORITY, FOR I AM A FLUFF MONKEY! :p

Nah, I jest

I'm not dealing in absolutes, but cloning the Emperor is highly unlikely becaaaaause:

(a) The technology simply doesn't exist, the Emperor's genetic code is beyond the understanding of pretty much anyone in the 40K universe (if you thought Space Marines and Primarchs were biologically confusing, you ain't seen nothing yet) and cloning him would be an impossible job for the technologically backwards Imperium.

Well, the technology does exist, the DKoK are apparently using it like theres no tomorrow. Plus the Primarchs were not simply clones of the Emporer, the were genetically engineered warriors, the most advanced possible at that time. A clone of the Emp would be "easier" as you are "only" trying to make a direct copy of what is already there! Hell, we're talking Dolly the Sheep here

Dark Lord Seanron wrote: (b) Trying to clone hiom could lead to religious outcry, plus I don't see the Custodes taking to kindly to someone trying to get a sample

Well, thats a real issue (and one GW would probably not be able to handle correctly in the game!) However, with the Golden Throne on the verge of collapse, I could see a great many people supporting the quest. Not to mention, the real issue of a "new" Emp would only occur if he wandered out from the "deserts" so to speak....if the whole Imperium were made aware that the experiment was underway, with the Churchs sanction.....who would stand up and say no?

Dark Lord Seanron wrote: (c) The Emperor's sons the Primarchs were clones (or as close to clones as you can get) and it was the Emperor himself who wrought his soul into them. I don't think there would be anyone else capable of transferring the Emperor's soul.

That first part isn't cannon. However, the difficulty in "soul transference" would be the only thing stopping the clone from being anything more than a genetic copy of the physical manifestation of the Emp.....useless.....however, clone components could be used to, effectively, rebuild the Emporer....what if you could take his brain and spinal column and "plug and play" into a sarrogate body.....now theres an idea

Dark Lord Seanron wrote: (d) and finally, I don't think he wants to be cloned. The Emperor has a plan, and being upon the Mortal Plain in the form of a clone isn't one of them.

To be honest, with the Imperium, possibly now, being as corrupt a place as the Eye of Terror, and the Over...ermm, High Lords not being willing to let go of 10,000 years of power, I don't really believe that the Emporers wants has anything to do with it, I mean, according to the HH books, he didn't want a church following him, and to be classed as a God.....that went south!

However, because of the points mentioned above, the status quo as it is would never allow an "new" Emporer to come to being.

You misunderstand me dear boy... there certainly is cloning technology to clone you bog-standard huamn gimpwad, but no technology exists to clone a being as immensly complex as the Emperor, especially not in a genetic sense. He is obscenely complex, a god wrought in flesh. If it were that easy why not clone an army of Emperor's, with minds tailored to your will, and do away with the rather rubbish-by-comparison Astartes?

And you are right, the Primarch Part isn't a cannon. It's a sentence, I would not advise fighting a long range war with it. Silly Boy :p

And that's only if you believe that the Emperor works his will and his divine plan through his followers. Which I do happen to believe..

Oh and another thing...

You cannot have a clone of the Emperor because it is possibly the most cliched and ridiculous Sci-Fi plot device EVER!

Emperor Palpatione dead? Hell no, we got a cloe of him right here (bugger off George)

It's a 'Chalk of Fate' plot device, a game ender and quite frankly a bit silly.

DLS, you seem to have a Fifth-Element-inspired view of cloning. (Now is where you tell me you've somehow never seen Fifth Element.) I'm not sure what would make the Emperor's DNA so dreadfully complicated. It could be that something else is the cause of him being very difficult to clone (as we know from the trouble he would have had [read: impossibility of] replacing the Primarchs spirited away by the Chaos Gods. Perhaps it has something more to do with the formation of their minds?

Dark Lord Seanron wrote:You misunderstand me dear boy... there certainly is cloning technology to clone you bog-standard huamn gimpwad, but no technology exists to clone a being as immensly complex as the Emperor, especially not in a genetic sense. He is obscenely complex, a god wrought in flesh. If it were that easy why not clone an army of Emperor's, with minds tailored to your will, and do away with the rather rubbish-by-comparison Astartes?

And you are right, the Primarch Part isn't a cannon. It's a sentence, I would not advise fighting a long range war with it. Silly Boy :p

And that's only if you believe that the Emperor works his will and his divine plan through his followers. Which I do happen to believe..

Oh and another thing...

You cannot have a clone of the Emperor because it is possibly the most cliched and ridiculous Sci-Fi plot device EVER!

Emperor Palpatione dead? Hell no, we got a cloe of him right here (bugger off George)

It's a 'Chalk of Fate' plot device, a game ender and quite frankly a bit silly.

Bit worried that you have "beliefs" based on the game...still, what-ever floats your boat.

Emporer is complex? Hmm, again, not really sure about this, according to old "Cannon".....(please PM if you're not sure what cannon means in this context), was the sum total of a group of powerful shamans committing mass suicide to then be reborn as the Emporer.

Now this is old info based on Latd source book, now its left a bit open ended, however, there is nothing to say that the Emporer ins't a standard human with an amazing psychic ability......I know you can draw certain conclusions from his ability to take on the "Super" human Primarchs and win, but still, theres no concrete basis for saying he would be any more genetically complex than your average DKoK trooper.

As far as "Chalk of fate" plot devices go, I don't know, have you read any books from the Black Library? its hardly Machavellian, in fact its more on par with Penelope Pitstop and Dick Dastardly in terms of orignality......

Delephont wrote:

Emporer is complex? Hmm, again, not really sure about this, according to old "Cannon".....(please PM if you're not sure what cannon means in this context), was the sum total of a group of powerful shamans committing mass suicide to then be reborn as the Emporer.

He knows what "canon" means, Delephont, he was simply mocking your spelling. A "cannon", as in a piece of artillery, is not the same thing as "canon", as in official fluff.

Dark Lord Seanron wrote:



Now this is old info based on Latd source book, now its left a bit open ended, however, there is nothing to say that the Emporer ins't a standard human with an amazing psychic ability......

And that's the impression that I'm getting. In the old fluff it said that the emperor came into being after some shaman committed suicide in a ritual. And if he was a god in the same way the chaos gods are he wouldn't be crippled and stuck in a human body in the first place. Who's to say that who ever is going to do the cloning is going to reveal it to the imperium right away? Some secert cult or some radical unknow group could want to clone the emperor for some reason.