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I was running my MiniCon GT this weekend and we had open gaming on Friday evening so I brought along my daemons to test them out. We had one table setup as a Khornate daemon world and I couldn't resist. Here is my list:

Bloodthirster/Unholy Might, Blessing of the Blood God, Deathstrike

Skulltaker/Juggernaught
Khornate herald/Juggernaught, Unholy Might, Fury

6x Blood Crushers/Icon, Instrument, Fury

3x 12x Bloodletters

2x Soul Grinder/Phleghm & Tongue


Here is my opponent's list the best I can remember:

2x Chaplain/4x Cenobyte servitors

Emperor's Champion/Preferred Enemy

3x Crusader squad/meltagun, power weapon

Lanraider Crusader

5x terminators/furious charge, 5x pair of lightning claws

2x Dreadnaught/1x Venerable, 2x extra armor + 2x twin linked lascannon

The deployment was Dawn of War. I won the roll and opted to go second. Here are my two waves:

Preferred Wave
Bloodthirster, Skulltaker + Herald + Crushers, 2x Soul Grinder

Secondary Wave
3x Bloodletter hordes

My preferred wave came in first. My opponent put one squad of Crusaders in hte landraider with the Emperor's Champion. He deployed the landraider on one flank with the regular dreadnaught and another Crusader squad. On the other flank he deployed the Venerable dreadnaught and other Crusader squad. The terminators had a drop pod and started in reserve.

His units moved up the first turn then I deep stroked my preferred wave. The Bloodthirster came in behind terrain close to the lone Crusader squad (joined with one Chaplain and cenobyte servitors) which were supported by the venerable dreadnaught. Both of my Soul Grinders came with one scattering into DT and I passed the DT test. The complex Blood Crusher squad had a mishap and went back into reserves. Both of my grinders fired their blast templates on the Crusafer squad killing a few and they used righteous zeal to move into charge range of my greater daemon.

I forgot to mention the objectives, which I'll explain now...

Primary - Your most expensive HQ must kill your opponent's most expensive HQ.
Mine was my Bloodthirster and my opponent picked his Chaplain leading the Crusader squad closest to my greater daemon and two Soul Grinders.

Secondary - Kill your opponent's most expensive HQ.

Tertiary - Your most expensive HQ is not destroyed or fleeing at the end of the game.

Seeing that my Bloodthirster had landed close to my opponent's chosen Chaplain the objectives would all be worked out quickly. The rest of the game was all about killing in the name of the Skull God.

The second turn in came the assault terminators and they landed close to my two Soul Grinders, disembarking on the side of the pod furthest away from the Soul Grinders. Both dreadnaughts targeted my greater daemon but I successfully passed both 4+ ward saves. The landraider was too far away to shoot at my preferred wave and moved in towards the center of the table on the far side of his terminators. The Crusader squad lead by his chosen Chaplain moved into assault range of my Bloodthirster, shot at it doing no wounds and then charged. The Bloodthirster proceeded to kill four the cenobyte servitors and the squad did no wounds in return. A couple of initiates died while taking armor saves due to the No Retreat rule.

My turn in came two squads of Bloodletters and the complex unit of Crushers. This time the Crushers did not mishap and landed beside the assault terminators. I placed one horde of lesser daemons to pull in the landraider and the other lesser daemon pack I landed safely back away from the battleline. One Grinder fired into the other foot slogging Crusader squad and killed five. The other Grinder moved in place to join the melée in support of my greater daemon. This turn in assault the Bloodthirster killed the chosen Chaplain and the Soul Grinder finished off the rest of the Crusader squad. My Bloodthirster consolidated toward the Venerable dreadnaught keeping out of it's charge range.

Third turn the Venerable dreadnaught moved up to shoot the closeby horde of Bloodletters and assault my greater daemon. The landraider moved up to shoot and disembark the Crusader squad. The assault terminators moved in to charge the Crushers. Both dreadnaughts targeted my greater daemon and scored one wound. The landraider plus disembarked Crusader squad targeted the Bloodletters killing half the squad. The Venerable dreadnaught then charged my greater deamon, was immoblized and lost it's DCCW. The Venerable dreadnaught also scored another wound in close combat against my Bloodthirster. The assault terminators had to charge through DT and were all destroyed by the Skulltaker and the Herald. The Crusader squad charged the Bloodletters finishing them off.

My turn both Grinders fired on the foot slogging Crusader squad and killed around five more Templars. I should also note that my last horde of Bloodletters came in landing in front of the foot slogging Crusader squad. My greater daemon destroyed the Venerable dreadnaught then consolidated behind cover. The Crushers asaulted the Crusader squad that had disembarked fron the landraider the previous turn killing them all. At this point I pretty much had it in the bag so I'll stop here.

G

Good report. If I had been in town, I would have gone to Minicon. Maybe next year.

You missed a good one for sure.

G

Sounds awesome. My khornate horde is still so tiny :s
Damn the luring of my renegade guard!

It's actually a small army in terms of models but I like to call it a horde. It's fits the background. : )

G

That Templar list is terrible. The game was over before it really began.

Agreed, the Templar list is terrible.

Third the horrible list. 2 Chaplains what a waste..

Cheif Librarian Vaako wrote:Third the horrible list. 2 Chaplains what a waste..

Yup. A huge waste...and if you are going to be on foot...for feths sake make the damn squads bigger.

The same guy almost won the GT last year. Sometimes a list you are no used to seeing might come across as bad but in reality you don't know how to run the combos. I have never been a big fan of Templars but I think that list is okay. Space Marines in general cannot beat down daemons in close combat, so yes in reality any game versus an assault oriented SM vs. daemons is over before it starts.

G

Not to dog on your opponent, maybe it is a combination of your unintentional misrepresentation of the list and some hidden combo that I fail to see, but his list as you presented in has some obvious faults.

Like, why are his Crusader Squads sizes so small? Chaplains with Servitors are still a valid option (though I would argue a "meh" one) but why are the accompanying Crusader squad sizes so small.

Why not take a Marshall to get the higher leadership, and roll two of those squads into one big 20 man Squad?

Even in Black Templars you need some Thunderhammer Terminators to handle Dreadnoughts and monstrous creatures. He made a pretty big mistake trying to tackle the Blood Crushers with the Terminators.

Those are just a few the things that stand out about the list, as you present it.

Can you please tell me where I exactly I said he was rocking small Crusader squads?

BTW MiniCon 2009 was a HUGE success this year... thank you.

G

Well you didn't say one way or another -- what size were they?

The same guy almost won the GT last year.

Irrelevant based on what we see.

Sometimes a list you are no used to seeing might come across as bad but in reality you don't know how to run the combos.

The list is trash. Why intentionally hamstring yourself with all LC terminators, no marshal means that the units that don't have a character are only LD 8 or 9 depending on where he places the characters, why take two chaplains when 50% of their abilities are wasted because of the vow he took, why intentionally subject your scoring units to get shot up ect, when they need to be intact to have any real benefit in CC or otherwise? As a Templar player myself, I am quite familiar with all the combos. This list has few. If you are running a foot army, taking Grimaldus is actually a better buy for the points overall.

I have never been a big fan of Templars but I think that list is okay.

For a fun list it's okay, but this is no where near as nasty of a list that can be made for BT at 1850.

Space Marines in general cannot beat down daemons in close combat, so yes in reality any game versus an assault oriented SM vs. daemons is over before it starts.

I completely disagree with that. BT more than most chapters are more than capable of beating down khorne daemons in CC. Bloodletters are only init 4 standing still. A command squad with furious charge or any other unit like that in the Templars list will wreck a 12 man squad of bloodletters...hell just the shooting from a crusader itself will neuter most of a 12 man squad..and since most of these units are LRC mounted more often than not...they'll charge first.

Like I said, with the list you had vs. the list he had...you should have trounced it with ease..and you did. You had the better constructed list in that match up.

I dont see anywhere in the OP that GBF said the BT army was awesome or sucky. This is just a battle report on how his deamons did vs another army. It kinda feels like Capt K and Mahu are ganging up on GBF for fighting against an opponent who took a sub par list.

The list was not competitive but Marines in general outside of assault terminators, dreadnaughts, and landraiders dont have much else to counter deamons in HtH. While BT may give Khorne Deamons a run for their money in HtH, I believe GBF said Deamons in general vs marines in HtH so that does include the possible combo of fatecrusher, deamonzilla, or crusher spam.

I agree with hte Hod's sentiments. I never said this BT list was strong but I do not want to show public disrespect to my opponent who is a friend as well. The game was an opportunity for me to play before two long days of running the GT and a chance for my opponent to playtest hte final mission.

I do feel strongly that BT are not a good matchup versus a strong Khornaet daemonic build. Sure Bloodletters are probably only half as good when they receive the charge but then again there is always that chance that if you play your cards right some of these units will have the opportunity to charge and then they really shine. While Bloodletters only have a 5+ save it is always there while Black Templars have no save versus the power weapons. This was a mission based solely upon destroying your opponent's most expensive HQ so it was not vital that my lesser daemons survive.

Black Templars must engage the daemons to win and to me that is the primary reason why they are at a severe disadvantage versus an army that can call upon the best assault units in the game... Those being the Bloodthirster and Blood Crushers. Black Templars don't really have an answer to either. M

I pointed out that my opponent did well last year to show that he is certainly a good player. Maybe this year he was going for a more friendly or better themed list. The two foot slogging Crusader squads were full size.

I always like to play the "how would I have gone about this matchup" game and put myself in my opponent's shoes. Sometimes it can give you valuable insight how they will play their army.

Nice to see Khorne getting the win.

I like your list. Is this a typical demons list you would use in most games at this level? Do you find that the bloodletters are capable of holding onto objectives?

The Bloodletters are capable of holding objectives. They work best when they come in the second wave and go to ground on objectives in cover. A 3+ save and T4 is not a bad combination.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:The Bloodletters are capable of holding objectives. They work best when they come in the second wave and go to ground on objectives in cover. A 3+ save and T4 is not a bad combination.

G

At my FLGS, I recieved astonished cries, followed by hurled accusations of "CHEESE" and "Rules Lawyer" and "TFG", and anything else you can think of when I had my bloodletters go to ground in the last game I played with my Demons.

Silly. They are just doing what troops are supposed to do.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Silly. They are just doing what troops are supposed to do.

G

I know. It was even worse because they tried to tell me that Bloodletters were unable to go to ground, and had to always try to assault. I of course, disagreed, which made me even more of TFG in their eyes. It was bizarre, and I haven't fielded my Demons since.

I love my daemons very much. That store sounds like TFG store. I would find another place to game if I weer you.

G

It wasn't my intention to "gang up" on anyone. I simply stated that the list was terrible and the game was over before it began and sited my reasoning...and I still stand by my comment regarding BT. They are the one marine chapter that really can handle a daemon army better any other chapter.

thehod wrote:I dont see anywhere in the OP that GBF said the BT army was awesome or sucky. This is just a battle report on how his deamons did vs another army. It kinda feels like Capt K and Mahu are ganging up on GBF for fighting against an opponent who took a sub par list.

The list was not competitive but Marines in general outside of assault terminators, dreadnaughts, and landraiders dont have much else to counter deamons in HtH. While BT may give Khorne Deamons a run for their money in HtH, I believe GBF said Deamons in general vs marines in HtH so that does include the possible combo of fatecrusher, deamonzilla, or crusher spam.

So you think that BT can stand up to stuff like Bloodthirsters, Blood Crushers and Bloodletters in close combat? I would like to see your basis for this opinion.

G

I never said this BT list was strong but I do not want to show public disrespect to my opponent who is a friend as well.

Critiquing a list isn't disrespecting anyone.

The game was an opportunity for me to play before two long days of running theGT and a chance for my opponent to playtest hte final mission.

True. But it appears that your list was geared more for competitive play and his was not. Clearly a mismatch.

I do feel strongly that BT are not a good matchup versus a strong Khornaet daemonic build.

And I completely disagree with that. In an all khornate list, there is only 3 units the Templars need to really address: Bloodthirsters, Soulgrinders, Daemonprinces. Everything else can be dealt with. Most competitive Templar lists are running two maybe three LRC's. Take out the stuff that kills them and the Templars can manage the rest.

Sure Bloodletters are probably only half as good when they receive the charge but then again there is always that chance that if you play your cards right some of these units will have the opportunity to charge and then they really shine.

True, but you can always shoot the crap out of a 12 man squad of Bloodletters with the crusaders, and assault what's left. There is no doubt that Bloodletters on the charge are the bees knees...but with your units safely inside AV14, more often than not you aren't getting the charge.

While Bloodletters only have a 5+ save it is always there while Black Templars have no save versus the power weapons.

5+ saves don't help much when they are getting shot.

This was a mission based solely upon destroying your opponent's most expensive HQ so it was not vital that my lesser daemons survive.

This gets back to my critique of his list. He has 3 easily killable units for you to prey on while you do not. His poor unit choices directly affects whether this game is winnable or not for him. You easily had this game won before it began. It could have been any mission...although this mission really sealed the deal for you. I'm not picking on you, the mission, or your opponent. I'm simply stating that based on the his poorly constructed list and your carefully constructed list + the mission = a quick victory for you.

Black Templars must engage the daemons to win and to me that is the primary reason why they are at a severe disadvantage versus an army that can call upon the best assault units in the game... Those being the Bloodthirster and Blood Crushers

Not necessarily. They can always use their vehicles shooting to deal with what needs to be dealt with first. A khornate daemon army has almost zero shooting. At that point it's manuevering enough to take out the stuff that can hurt the BT's the most...or take out the stuff that allows you not to complete the mission. Everything else can be managed well enough. I will concede that it is more difficult for a Templars player to handle a mixed Daemon army, but they still manage far better than other marine armies in that match up.

Black Templars don't really have an answer to either.

A BT terminator assault squad with Furious Charge can eat a Thirster when they charge...with minimal lossess for the squad (assuming you are taking 8 with 4LC's/ 4 TH/SS). The same goes for a BT command squad with Furious Charge...the Marshal himself should be able to put about 1.5-2 wounds on the Thirster at Init 6. The rest strike the Thirster simo...possibly killing him there or doing at least a wound or two, and the fist should drag him down at the end. However, that is only if absolutely necessary. Like I said, the best way for BT to handle a thirster is through judicious shooting.

I pointed out that my opponent did well last year to show that he is certainly a good player. Maybe this year he was going for a more friendly or better themed list.

That may be the case. He may indeed be a good player. Good player or not, his list was/is clearly out matched by yours. That is all I'm pointing out.

The two foot slogging Crusader squads were full size.

I thought there was three of them?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree with GBF, going to ground isn't cheesy and is a basic rule in the game.

whitedragon wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:The Bloodletters are capable of holding objectives. They work best when they come in the second wave and go to ground on objectives in cover. A 3+ save and T4 is not a bad combination.

G

At my FLGS, I recieved astonished cries, followed by hurled accusations of "CHEESE" and "Rules Lawyer" and "TFG", and anything else you can think of when I had my bloodletters go to ground in the last game I played with my Demons.

My list has plenty of tank busting... Two Grinders with tongue, the Bloodthirster and the Crushers. If you are going to move your tanks into range to shoot the Bloodletters then they are in charge range. It's not so simple to say you can pull drive bys with the landraiders.

The big squad of assault termies is tough for sure so I would try to charge them with a Grinder. Even the thunder hammer has problems with AV13.

I'm not really scared of multiple landraider lists and they tend to make armies smaller. Sure I respect what they can do but it's not an auto win for them by any means

the third crusader squad rode with the EC in the lone Crusader by the way.

G

edited stupidity away

The two heralds are joined to the Crushers, do it's 4 & 3.

G

Yup.

Thirsters can be dealt with by BT command squads, BT Assault termies, heck I've even dragged them down with full assault marine squads with some SS thrown in. Mostly though, you let your LRCs do most of the work and save your beatstick units for other things.

Crushers aren't dealt with by assaults as much as they are managed. Venerable Dreadnoughts handle them just fine. If I can take a unit of them out of a game for 3+ turns. That is winning the battle IMHO. Crushers have one guy that has a possible chance to hurt the dread...and it's a longshot at that.

Bloodletters can be dealt with by combined assaults. Usually a daemon player is staggering their units so the guys in back counter attack, etc. Using LRCs, to hit multiple units of BL with multiple squads is the best bet since combat res wounds will be taken on the multiple letter squads at once...or you can just shoot them down to managable sizes to assault or go after later.

In my experience vs. playing against daemons, the faster you can scoop whole daemon units off the table per turn, the easier it is for you to beat them regularly. YMMV.

Green Blow Fly wrote:So you think that BT can stand up to stuff like Bloodthirsters, Blood Crushers and Bloodletters in close combat? I would like to see your basis for this opinion.

G

You make it sound so easy which tells me maybe you have been clubbing baby seals. If the daemons rank up you are not going to be able to play divide and conquer versus them. You would be surprised how easy it is for a Khornate herald to pop a dreadnaught. Any rend is an auto pen. The Thirster is faster and can intercept while the Grinders snipe your tanks. You'll have to take on the whole army, which means you'll be facing a lot of attacks that ignore armor saves and inflict instant death.

G