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This came up in a recent game and I wanted some clarification on it. Can you fire a template out of a transport, say a flamer out of a Rhino? We decided to say no sense you can't fire it without the template touching the vehicle.

So what do you guys think?

What about a turret mounted template weapon?

RaW = No.
RaP = Yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:What about a turret mounted template weapon?

RaW = No
RaP = Yes

Gwar! wrote:RaW = No.
RaP = Yes.

RaP?

read* as played.

Horst wrote:read* as played.

Rules as Played actually

It's a overly PC way of saying RaI, as RaI implies you are the Author as you know the intent.

I have a different interpretation to RaW than most. Per RaW, when using a template weapon the template is placed so that it touches the firing model and does not touch any friendly models. Also per RaW, when shooting from a fire point, treat the weapon as coming from the vehicle with the attack originating at the fire point. And as there is no rule that specifically states that a model is friendly to itself or that the firer of a template weapon is hit by their own attack, a template originating from a fire point or turret on a vehicle is place per template weapon rules first and vehicle weapon rules second.

This means that you place the template so that it touches the firing model with the narrow end facing the weapon barrel or fire point and the wide end placed over as many enemy models as possible without being placed over a friendly model that is not the firer. This simple interpretation allows vehicles such as Heavy Flamer Razorbacks (ignores its own hull), Immolators (ignores its own hull), Hellhounds (ignores its own hull), Titans with carapace Inferno Cannons (ignores minimum range restrictions), and any transport with a fire point (ignores the transport’s hull) to be used as they always have previous to 5th edition while still using the rules as written in 5th edition.

Basically, use common sense to allow the system to work rather than using loop holes to limit how the system works.

SJ

Is there any real definitive way to tell? Or are flamers on vehicles just stupid? Common sense and the fact that some vehicles, like the Razorback, can take flamers but can't fire them without touching a friendly model.

Aya wrote:This came up in a recent game and I wanted some clarification on it. Can you fire a template out of a transport, say a flamer out of a Rhino? We decided to say no sense you can't fire it without the template touching the vehicle.

So what do you guys think?

You can't fire on a Chimera or Immolator or whatever without the template touching the vehicle either and it's the vehicle's own weapon.
Hence Gwar!'s answer.

I like jeffersonian000's interpretation as well, but that might be more RAI than RAW.

Same could be applied to any model at all - you place the template so that it touches the firing model with the small end. You cannot place the template so that it's touching any friendly models. Ergo, you cannot place a template at all, unless you're using a Hellhound.

So, by RAW, template weapons are as useless as a cup of coffee while underwater.

In practice, just ignore the model that the template is coming from and the game doesn't break.

Cheexsta wrote:Same could be applied to any model at all - you place the template so that it touches the firing model with the small end. You cannot place the template so that it's touching any friendly models. Ergo, you cannot place a template at all, unless you're using a Hellhound.

So, by RAW, template weapons are as useless as a cup of coffee while underwater

Actually, no. You place the flamer touching the model just fine. Models touched by the template are not hit. Models COVERED by the template are hit, which is why you cannot fire them from a Fire Point or a Turret, as it covers part of the hull.

Actually, yes.

"...simply place the narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models." -BGB, p29.

Nothing in there about hitting friendly models; as long as the template touches a friendly model, it cannot be placed. And since you have to place the template so that it's touching a friendly model (ie, the model firing it), it cannot be placed.

You could argue that the model firing the template isn't friendly to himself, but then that's a problem with defining "friendly". If you consider "friendly" to be any model on your side, then templates are screwed.

Cheexsta wrote:Actually, yes.

"...simply place the narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models." -BGB, p29.

Nothing in there about hitting friendly models; as long as the template touches a friendly model, it cannot be placed. And since you have to place the template so that it's touching a friendly model (ie, the model firing it), it cannot be placed.

You could argue that the model firing the template isn't friendly to himself, but then that's a problem with defining "friendly". If you consider "friendly" to be any model on your side, then templates are screwed.

What is your point? You cannot have it touching friendly models, but touching models does not hit them, they have to be covered.

My point is that, by RAW, you can never use a Template weapon (except in special circumstances, like Hellhounds).

You must place the template so that it is touching the model firing it.

You cannot place the template so that it is touching any friendly model.

I don't know why you keep bringing up the word "covering".

Cheexsta wrote:My point is that, by RAW, you can never use a Template weapon (except in special circumstances, like Hellhounds).

You must place the template so that it is touching the model firing it.

You cannot place the template so that it is touching any friendly model.

I don't know why you keep bringing up the word "covering".

Because the rule says models covered are hit, not models touching.

Try reading for once:

"...simply place the narrow end is touching the base of the model firing it and the rest of the template covers as many models as possible in the target unit without touching any friendly models." Just because it is not allowed to touch other friendly models, does not mean it cannot touch the firer.

And try understanding for once.

Being hit or not has no bearing in this argument. All the template needs to do is touch any friendly model for it to be invalid.

You place the template so that it touches the model firing it. The model firing it is a friendly model. You cannot place the template so that it is touching a friendly model, so the template placement is invalid.

Again, "covering" or "hitting" models has nothing to do with it.

You also mention "other friendly models" in your argument - a word that does not come up at all in the rule. While I agree that is the intention, and the way everyone plays it, it just is not RAW.

Specific > General.

The order to touch the firing model is more specific than the order to not touch any friendly models.

Seriously, Lrn2RulesPlz

And finally, you've actually countered the point I was making and I'll concede.

Which also proves a RAW point for the original topic - the specific requirement to place a template touching the vehicle from which the template is coming overrides the general rule of not being able to touch friendly models.

And seriously, Lrn2NotBSnidePlz. I was merely making a point that not allowing flamers to fire from a vehicle is like saying you can't use flamers at all.

Cheexsta wrote:And finally, you've actually countered the point I was making and I'll concede.

Which also proves a RAW point for the original topic - the specific requirement to place a template touching the vehicle from which the template is coming overrides the general rule of not being able to touch friendly models.

And seriously, Lrn2NotBSnidePlz. I was merely making a point that not allowing flamers to fire from a vehicle is like saying you can't use flamers at all.

No, the rules for vehicles are different, it has to be placed touching the gun mount. It cannot then touch the hull, as it is a friendly model.

You cannot fire a Flamer from a Fire Point on a Rhino/Chimera etc, as the fire point is surrounded by hull, so there is no way to place a flamer template touching the fire point (allowed) without also covering the hull (forbidden).

Wait wait wait, so you are trying to say that you cant fire a flame weapon from within a vehicle because part of the template TOUCHES the some of the tank? Im sorry but thats just insane. Its a legal weapon, you can legally fire a weapon from a fire point. Im not seeing where you cannot do this

KingCracker wrote:Wait wait wait, so you are trying to say that you cant fire a flame weapon from within a vehicle because part of the template TOUCHES the some of the tank? Im sorry but thats just insane. Its a legal weapon, you can legally fire a weapon from a fire point. Im not seeing where you cannot do this

Note position of fire point. See that it it is recessed in the centre, with hull all around it.

Place Flamer Template touching the edge of the fire point.

See the problem now?

ok take a step back from the book and relax.

1) read the rules for transported units, they measure distances from the HULL of the vehicle not the fire point. thus a flamer fired from inside a vehicle places the template at the hull of the vehicle resolve accordingly. and as the flamer doesnt kill the model firing it, it doesnt hit the vehicle either.

2) vehilce measure range from the HULL of the vehicle not the weapon, they do check LOS from the weapon. the same as you measure to the hull of the vehicle.

lixulana wrote:1) read the rules for transported units, they measure distances from the HULL of the vehicle not the fire point. thus a flamer fired from inside a vehicle places the template at the hull of the vehicle resolve accordingly. and as the flamer doesnt kill the model firing it, it doesnt hit the vehicle either.

You take a step back and read the rule again. For ranges OTHER THAN THE EMBARKED UNITS SHOOTING, use the hull. For their Shooting, you use a Fire point.

To Quote Page 66:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.

1) No they do not. They fire from fire points only by default, and all ranges are measured to the fire point.

You are confusing Open topped vehicles which have an EXEMPTION to allow the shots to come from anywhere on the hull.

2) Vehicles measure range from the barrel of the weapon. Checking the rulebook yourself would be a good idea.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Checking the rulebook yourself would be a good idea.

OMG Ur being so Roodz!

No wait, my bad, it wasn't Gwar! who posted it

Given the poster had rather rudely suggested that other people hadn't read the rules I thought it was appropriate enough

Gotta love Irony

I swear... I leave you kids alone for two seconds and...

Well, thanks for the info. Kind of sucks that you can't use templates on vehicles. Sounds like another rule that GW screwed up >_<

They work ON vehicles, just not so well FROM them.

Aya wrote:I swear... I leave you kids alone for two seconds and...

Well, thanks for the info. Kind of sucks that you can't use templates on vehicles. Sounds like another rule that GW screwed up >_<

You can, even Gwar noted this was RAW not Rules as Played.