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Returning to the hobby, trying to despatch MEQs as best as possible in small games to start with.

Any and all suggestions/criticism/comments welcome.

HQ – Company Command Squad
Mortar
Master of ordnance
85

(A mortar doesn't scatter as far as the MoO does, so I put him at the back of the unit and use the mortar as a 'tracer' under the multiple barrage weapons rule)

Elites – Storm Troopers
Airbourne Assault
85

Elites – Storm Troopers
Airbourne Assault
85

Troops - Veteran Squad
3 plasma guns
Autocannon
Chimera with hull heavy flamer
170

Troops - Veteran Squad
3 plasma guns
Autocannon
Chimera with hull heavy flamer
170

Fast Attack – Hellhound Squadron
Bane Wolf with hull multi-melta
145

So what do you think? Competitive?

Firstly clever as hell using the mortar like that i never even thought of it myself

also lose one of the vet squads and add a line squad


i like the look of

platoon command squad 30pts
Infantry squad - Auto cannon 70pts
Infantry squad - Auto cannon 70pts

Total 170pts

this is just personal prefference your list is solid but i like the extra las guns just in case you face termies

also i prefer the devil dog over the bane wolf in smaller games as at the moment the bane wolf is your only armoured threat and at the start of the game you only having 4 units on the table i doubt it would get within range

Haha, I thought the mortar/MoO combo would get FAQ'd out, but there wasn't even a whisper of it when the FAQ came out the other day. I think it was a 40k Radio idea actually.

I did the Maths-hammer on the plasma-vets v infantry platoon, and the results are in (but correct me if I'm wrong, I did it quickly from memory, so might have made some bad mistakes): At 12-24" range, 4 lasguns, 3 plasma guns and an autocannon give 0.843 woudns, whereas 18 lasguns and 2 autocannon give 1.055 wounds, so there is a fair bit of difference there, I agree. But while you don't have the flexibility and the 2 extra troops units of the platoon, the plasma guns come in handy, as you can see next.

As for armour, plasma guns and autocannons are both s7, and eventually something will get done, even against AV13. AV14 is rare in this scale of game, especially against MEQs with one AV14 vehicle in the codex (again, correct if wrong), and will just need special planning to deal with (or avoid).

AG09 wrote:

As for armour, plasma guns and autocannons are both s7, and eventually something will get done, even against AV13. AV14 is rare in this scale of game, especially against MEQs with one AV14 vehicle in the codex (again, correct if wrong), and will just need special planning to deal with (or avoid).

which is why i would take the devil dog lol


but like i said good list and all just tit for tat really

solid work

No, Mortar and MoO was FAQ'd. They are resolved separately.

Despite AP3, storm troopers aren't really that good of anti-Meq. Few people use stormtroopers, and their most popular use is taking a minimal squad with melta guns and using them as a suicide deepstriking tank-killing squad. There aren't really any good elites for IG except Psyker Battle Squads and Marbo, most people agree.

Maybe make your CCS be 3 plasma guns + medic (so that they don't end up killing themselves) + chimera. Give one of the veteran squad meltaguns as well, just so that you have a reliable way of killing AV14 when that one guy with 2 land raiders shows up. Consider dropping the autocannons to reclaim a few points, chances are you'll get to fire them once per game because your chimeras will be rushing up to get into rapid-fire range with the plasmaguns.

Fast attack seems good. Consider making the points for a Leman Russ (MBT or Executioner) with plasma sponsons, those are deadly against Meqs.

you may want to reread the FAQ, its sad but the morter/MOO was there. thus forcing me to change my CCS to melta. my 2ed point is that you are running plasma heavy with very little anti-tank. i agree you wont see much 14 AV, but if you do you will be in a world of pain. well let me boil it down imo drop one unit of storm troops and change your CCS to a melta unit in a chimera. now you get the all the plasma you want plus you get the guns to pop big AV and one more tank on the field.

Oops, I re-read it and yes, I may have overlooked that paragraph in my eagerness not to find it. Damn. Well then, maybe I will re-jig the whole force as a result (no point hiding the whole CSS if there's no point taking a mortar, which leads me to wonder why I am taking a MoO at all...).

I will post up a different list once I get back to my codex tomorrow evening. But so far I am leaning towards plasma vets still (have the models, plus I am min-maxing at this stage still), then maybe a melta-stormtrooper squad and a LR Executioner for those pie-plates of MEQ destruction. Maybe even run a trio (or more) of snipers as ratlings (I hate hobbits in 40k). We shall see, though.

Not competitive at all frankly.

Why? It's actually easy. You lack anti-tank.

Stormtroopers are cool, not competitive in their own personal right REALLY, but they seem very lonely here. Either combine them for a 10 man squad or give them some meltaguns! This would be the best option.

The Plasma Vets make me sad. Combining a heavy weapon + Rapid Fire + Wasting Meltagun Spots + Wasting Vets on Plasma + Plasma is Bad = Bad.

Really running the vets with tri-melta in a ML/HF chim is just so good! The Bane Wolf is good but really it would look better with a HHF. Duality.

Running your CCS and Vets as melta (even maybe pop a HF in there or Demo) and running the ST with meltagun would bring a rediculous amount of firepower to the table + the addition of the Chiemras HHF's being there for all your flamery goodness!

If you are Min-Maxing, then you shouldn't have plasma in any type of infantry. I would suggest dropping stormtroopers in favor of more tanks and the ability to take that executioner if you want it.

Meq die to mass wounds. Focus on that. If you want a real meq killer the LRE and the Medusa are amazing.

i disagree with the whole not competetive at all

at this sized game i would not go over the top on anti armour against smerf players chance are half their points will be tied up in there hq

MoO, with reduced scatter (which doesn't actually work at all). 2x Autocannon, and a Multi Melta is not "lacking anti armor" for a 750 list.

My only complaint is the fact that I don't like the Banewolf. I much prefer a Hellhound.

EzeKK, I see where you're coming from, but I think you analysed his list as if it was part of a 1500-2000 point tournament list, against lots of completely mechanised armies. At 750 points his weapon choices seem pretty damn reasonable. Plasma isn't all it used to be, but if you think you're facing marines with or without rhinos, it's still worth it.

That said, I think the list would benefit from a bit of meltagun action. Sooner or later someone will try to bring a Leman Russ, battlewagon, Land raider or similar heavy tank to the table. Even if they don't meltaguns are AP1, so they kick it against any vehicle and are useful against marines!

The obvious ways to get some meltaguns are to put them on the stormtrooper squad/CCS.

I would: Scrap 1 stormtrooper squad, give the other 2 meltaguns. This is a squad that can deepstrike and take out tanks, if you're not facing tanks, the meltaguns are still good against MEQs.
Using the saved points, buy the CCS a chimera. I promise you you won't regret it. Decent guns and an invaluable layer of protection for your squishy commander. Then scrap the MoO and mortar, since the multiple barrage thing is off the table (nice try though!) and get them either 4 meltaguns or 3 plasma.

Thats my input, make of it what you will.

He has melta on the Hellhound variant.

im still going to say i like he plama, and i think i can say every one knows the down sides, but it is a very good choise for this point build. melta vets are very good, VERY good, but they dont have the shock they had when the codex came out. most of the "better" players out there have learned how to deal with them. melta has some very heavy down falls as well, it dosent realy belong in this thread so i wont go in to them.

with that in mind, back on topic: you need to have a unit or 2 to handle the big tank, but i realy dont think its a good idea to spam the melta vets at this point cost. you realy cant get the numbers of them to make it a good list. i mean we would be talking 3 or 4 units with little back up. the chimera is a very good transport but its still glass jaw. if you dont take first turn plan on having 1or2 gone before you move. you may not see a land raider but you will see plama cannons/lascannons/autocannons in almost every list you plan to face.

i think you are on the right path, but im really going to advise agenst the storm troopers, they are fun to play but not realy that good, even if you strap on the melta guns.

At 500-1000 pts the clearest path to victory is to destroy the enemy infantry, and take away their ability to capture and hold points. If going for Annihilation, you can still get more points by killing squishy troops choices faster than you can kill tanks. At this size you just need to be able to break a tank... not be particularly effective. The infantry should take priority, and you should do what you can to make it so you are good at that... without leaving yourself too vulnerable.

This list has got some extremely mixed reviews, some people have said I'm sort of on the right track, while I've struggled to do anything right in some people's eyes. Interestingly, however, I think everybody would change something, so here it goes again (cue awesome treadmills), with a bit of a rationale behind it...

Firstly, I want to explain myself over a few things.

1. Min-maxing. I meant this in terms of veterans, which are the best way to field the mandatory 2 troops choices without painting at least 50 models (I am a very slow/unmotivated/poor quality/etc. painter). It just happens that most people recommend Vets over the platoon at smaller point-value forces. Their outfitting, however, is a totally different issue.

2. Leman Russ Executioner v. Bane Wolf. I know that 3 plasma templates are excellent against MEQs, but (and here, again, I may have messed up the FAQ completely, but I don't think so) the main point with the Bane Wolf is that the chem-cannon is STRENGTH ONE This means it counts as a defensive weapon (S4 or less, I think the rule is), so it can be fired in addition to other weapons. Having a multi-melta in the hull means I can fire at that rhino which has just disembarked its squad, and hit most of the marines as well, at AP3. However, the changes might please both camps, hahaha.

3. I got Stormtroopers because they are a nice idea, and they are now AP3. They don't seem to have gone down very well, though. I might use the models as veterans instead.

So I think a new list is called for.

The first real review of the list said it lacked anti-armour in a big way, but others are not so sure. I might put in a poll after this new list has been reviewed. I thought about putting a melta in with the mounted veteran squad, but continuity is too important, in my opinion, so I am sticking with the plasmas for the veterans (especially after the enormous effort and expense to assemble 6 plasma-gun veterans). What I will do, however, is get rid of the autocannon (good idea or not?): as someone pointed out, it won't get to fire for a little while, as I will be getting in to rapid fire range. But back to the anti-tank issue (or non-issue, as the case may be), the option is then to give meltas to some Stormtroopers or to the CCS. Hmm... I think mechanised meltas wins me over at the moment, but if they are known to be unreliable compared to deep-striking ones, please let me know.

HQ - Company Command Squad
4 meltaguns
Chimera with hull heavy flamer
145

Troops - Veteran Squad
3 plasma guns
Chimera with hull heavy flamer
170

Troops - Veteran Squad
3 sniper rifles
Autocannon
95

Fast Attack – Hellhound Squadron
Bane Wolf with hull multi-melta
145

Heavy Support - Leman Russ Squadron
Leman Russ Executioner
190

Now assuming my maths is correct (no guarantees, and of course please point out any horrific faux pas), this list may please a few more people than the first. So, the Stormtroopers have gone completely, as have the Master of Ordnance and his ill-fated 'tracer', the mortar team. In their place comes a Leman Russ Executioner, which may or may not spell doom for MEQs, haha. Special and heavy weapons have also been chopped and changed.

The main questions I want answered are these:

1. What to do with the left over 5 points? 'But it's only 5 points', I hear you say. 'Well it's only 750' is my reply.

2. Is the multi-melta on the Bane Wolf now redundant (i.e. would a heavy flamer be a better option, or is it nice to have a back-up tank "breaker", as Lt. Lathrop puts it so nicely)?

3. Are the sniper rifles too feeble? I took them for their range, but would grenade launchers or a lone plasma gun be better? This unit may end up splitting its fire between infantry and lightly armoured vehicles, and obviously sniper rifles are not so great against the latter.

4. Are the meltas in the right place? I see 3-4 meltas going after a tank as a bit of a suicide job, and with the focus on objectives, the 2 veteran squads are really 1-take, 1-hold. Thus 4 meltas to go pop some armour (and contest if they are still alive), 1 veteran squad to sit on my objective and the other to go drive-by-plasma the hell out of whichever unlucky unit is sitting on my opponent's objective, then grab it.

5. Should I shed points here and there (3 sniper rifles, 2 meltas) to get the 40 needed for plasma sponsons on the Executioner, as makr suggests? The are a plasma blast weapon, which is just so cool, but at this point value everything else seems really essential.

first yea kill off the sniper rifles, they realy dont work well. if you are going for a range unit just use the AC

both bane wolf loadouts are viable, at 750 it realy depends on the army across the table if the MM or the HF would be better.

you realy need to get that 2ed ved squad in a chimera, tuff 3 troops with 5+ AS are going to be gunned down so fast its going to make your head spin. and when your one "hold" unit is gone, will your "take" unit hold or contest?

i dont think you need all 5 plasma cannons on the exe, at 750 3 blasts should do the job just fine. (oh and people will still call you a power gamer if you use the bare exe or the loaded out one)

i dont think the melta vets make the bane wolf's MM redundant, yes thay do the same thing but they do it in a very diffrent way. EX: the melta vets are far better on units comming strate at you like land raiders, rhinos, bikes or of the type, where the bane wolfs MM should be sent after units sitting far away making pot shots from the other end of the field like preds, artilery, and that sort.

thats all IMO FYI

what i would do with your list is:

1) drop the snipers, the MM on he mane wolf, a melta in the CCS, and a plas out of one of the vets, then buy a 3ed chimera. now you have a full mech, with 5 tanks, geared to put out alot of fire power. (alot of people i think may look down on pulling the one plas and the melta out of this list, IMO the chimera is worth far more then the 2 wep)

I think the second list is better.

I agree with komosunder about squeezing in another chimera, it seems to be a big advantage not having to expose any of your squishy scoring units from the beginning.

I think the right way to do it is to drop the MM on the banewolf and replace the executioner with a LRBT. I think you'll be alright because as Lt Lathrop pointed out, how much AV14 and 2+ saves do you face at 750 points? You'd still have a powerful melta and plasma unit for those types of enemies, and lots of other dakka as well.

If you do get another chimera in, and even if you don't, switch sniper rifles for GLs. I think sniper rifles are just awful.

I agree, those sniper rifles really won't do all too much. Another chimera is probably also a good idea, but not necessary - you might even try a penal legion squad! If you roll a 1-2 just use them to hold your objective with Assault 2 lasguns at 24", otherwise, they can outflank and terrorize most infantry. I don't like them usually, but they're cheaper than veterans with all the weapons upgrades. Alternatively, you could keep those veterans in reserve and run them onto the board to grab your home objective on turn 5.

I disagree with I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly on the LRBT, however. A normal bare LRBT is worthless - you're paying 150 for a Strength 8 battlecannon. I'm going to say keep the executioner, it'll make for a great firebase. Alternatively, you could try an LRBT with plasma sponsons (so you can get that large battlecannon blast instead of one plasma shot, which is better because it'll instant death T4 and will pierce MEQ armor anyway). However, you'll have trouble firing while moving if you do that, and the plasma sponsons have Gets Hot! That's one thing you might have to consider based on your playstyle.

makr wrote:, and the plasma sponsons have Gets Hot!.

i thought vehicles did not have that rule

vehicles dont get hot, so not a prob there. i like the idea of a LRBT w/ plasma its the same cost as a striped exe but so much better.

its 3 plasma cannon shots, but i see where your comming from

No, they get hot but not in the same way. You roll a die and on a 1 it doesn't fire.

The question is then where to find 40 points for the sponsons?

5 left over from the list already, 15 from 3 sniper rifles makes 20. 15 from the Bane Wolf's multi-melta is 35, and I am still 5 short...

drop the executioner to a LRBT

IS 40 PTS



just an idea but droping the 3 plasma guns to melta's
and losing the snipersand the autocannon altogether followed by losing that MM on the bane wolf

15+25+15=55 which is a chimera

still 5 laft over though

makr wrote:
I disagree with I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly on the LRBT, however. A normal bare LRBT is worthless - you're paying 150 for a Strength 8 battlecannon.

Something about the recent IG codex made people suddenly hate their S8 AP3 ordnance templates. Why is that? The executioner cannon is better because it's much more reliable (3 scatter rolls instead of staking it all on one) but that's why it costs 40 points more. I think a LRBT with plasma sponsons is definitely>executioner, and for the same price tag. End of the day, 150 points for a naked LRBT vs 230 for a 5-blast executioner seems like a very fair balance. I just don't get why the LRBT is so derided. It's still an ordnance pie-plate. I never see LRBTs facing me across the board and just go 'pshaw, what a noob, he's using cheap and effective ordnance! I have absolutely nothing to worry about'. Just because it isn't as destructive as another, much more expensive tank, doesn't make the basic LRBT useless.

That said, if I was building a list from the ground up, I'd take demolishers.

For me at least, the reason is that some bane wolves will be better at anti MEQ and a vendetta (I don't use either of those units in my current list but I'm trying to make a point) or chimera full of meltavets will be better antitank. It seems like you're sacrificing a good weapon and paying 20 points for 2 more points of armor, which I honestly don't think is worth it.

Can somebody explain why everybody seems so keen on meltas against MEQ infantry? At rapid-fire range, 1 plasma gun is as effective as 2 meltas, and let's face it, assault isn't the highest priority when playing IG: I would much prefer to get some extra shooting in, and tank-hunt with units specifically kitted-out for it (in this case my quad-melta HQ).

As for the heavy support/anti-tank balance, there seem to be a couple of options.

1 (current): Suicide melta team in Chimera, Leman Russ Executioner

2. Suicide melta team in Chimera, different Russ variant (standard with plasma, demolisher, even exterminator?)

3. Run 1 vet team with triple plasma in a chimera, then the second with triple melta in a vendetta, and no LRBT. Not sure where the CCS fits in here.

Thoughts?

AG09 wrote:Can somebody explain why everybody seems so keen on meltas against MEQ infantry? At rapid-fire range, 1 plasma gun is as effective as 2 meltas, and let's face it, assault isn't the highest priority when playing IG: I would much prefer to get some extra shooting in, and tank-hunt with units specifically kitted-out for it (in this case my quad-melta HQ).

As for the heavy support/anti-tank balance, there seem to be a couple of options.

1 (current): Suicide melta team in Chimera, Leman Russ Executioner

2. Suicide melta team in Chimera, different Russ variant (standard with plasma, demolisher, even exterminator?)

3. Run 1 vet team with triple plasma in a chimera, then the second with triple melta in a vendetta, and no LRBT. Not sure where the CCS fits in here.

Thoughts?

That's not true at all... Plasma, only going by strength and AP and range, is twice as effective... but the odds say that your plasma gun will kill himself by or before turn 3. I am not a huge fan of Melta v MEQ either, however. I much prefer Imperial Tanks, like a Russ' S8 AP3 v MEQs... if I ever go up against a squad of termies... I'll just lasgun them... their Sv2+ is so high... they are as about as effective as any other option I have... but I have 150 lasguns... and only 1 lascannon. Another good option is an Armor Sentinel with a Plasma Cannon... they are remarkably cheap for what they can do... just a tad fragile.

If you want plasma, perhaps take an Inquisitor as an ally. Their "warrior" henchman can take a plasmagun, with the total cost of veteran guardsman + plasma gun + carapace armor being only 20 points. Because of the free carapace on the warrior henchman, each guardsman has a 1/12 chance of dying each shot, which isn't terrible. Plus they get targeters so you can measure ranges, which I suppose could be useful on occasion. You can also give the inquisitor something nice like an incinerator (heavy flamer that ignores invulnerable saves) or psycannon (3 S6 AP4 shots that ignore invulnerable saves) + sage (+1 BS), and of course take the cheese 2 mystics retinue that'll essentially prevent deepstrikers. You'll have to buy another chimera first for the veterans without a ride, deploy the veterans outside it, and then have the inquisitor get it on the first turn.

Melta is nice because of the tankbusting ability, and because it'll instant death T4 which plasma won't do. I have a mix of both.

If you don't want to go with the inquisitor and friends, and then perhaps swapping the Executioner to a demolisher to make the points, I recommend sticking with option 1.

Lt Lathrop wrote:the odds say that your plasma gun will kill himself by or before turn 3.

This may be true (how did you arrive there, though), but think about what will actually be going on on the tabletop, as well as on a spreadsheet: he won't be firing until he gets within rapid fire range (being in a transport), and then when he does it will be make or break: MEQs will most likely be charging when within 12" of IG, so IG will be shooting. That means 1 turn of shooting, 2 if I can cause them to fall back. Also, with 3 in the squad, I should be able to do a fair bit of damage. Melta does indeed instant-kill at that range (see below), but plasma IS twice as effective against infantry.

makr wrote:Because of the free carapace on the warrior henchman, each guardsman has a 1/12 chance of dying each shot, which isn't terrible.

As I understand it, a roll of one means the firer takes an automatic hit from his weapon. At strength 7, AP2, that's instant kill, no saves. So it's a little more than 1 in 12.

makr wrote:Melta is nice because of the tankbusting ability, and because it'll instant death T4 which plasma won't do. I have a mix of both.

In terms of continuity though, would it not be better to run plasma or melta exclusively in units?

makr wrote:If you don't want to go with the inquisitor and friends, and then perhaps swapping the Executioner to a demolisher to make the points, I recommend sticking with option 1.

I don't, so I may. Tempted by the Vendetta option, however: such a cool model. The way I see it, the Vendetta would take a triple-plasma veteran squad and drop them within rapid fire of whoever is guarding the enemy objective, then turn its lascannons on some armour. Easier said than done though.

No, a roll of one doesn't mean the firer shoots himself with the plasma gun. If you check the rulebook entry for gets hot, it simply says the firer takes a wound (page 31).

So, it is 1/12.

About melta and plasma, I didn't mean both in the same squad. At 1500 I run a plasma squad with an inquisitor (you could even through in a few more acoylates with combi-plasmas if you want a few more shots) and a group of meltagunning veterans in a chimera.

Valkyries are better than Vendettas if you plan on moving, simply because they can fire 12" and fire everything so it'll be easier to get in position. A lot of people run meltavets in Valkyries, maybe consider that if you want an airborne unit.