Important Rules Question

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**Akaiyou**

Hello guys,

I have a question about setting up a 40k game with someone.

pg 86 of the rulebook says that you must

1. Choose point limit
2. Choose forces
3. etc etc

So my question is about point #2. Choosing forces.

This does not specify that you must choose your roster anywhere.

Does this mean that i'm allowed bring anything I want to the table even if i don't specify or write down what ugprades/wargear/psychic powers the unit has and select them mid-game?

For those confused, here's some examples. Is the following legal?

A Necron Army with a Necron Lord doesn't specify that he has anything other than a Resurrection Orb and a Warscythe (which are visible upgrades) so that If im in a situation where I want to get an Inv save i can add phase shifter as one of his upgrades mid game to save against a lascannon lets say?

Or if i'm in a tight spot I can instead say that the lord has Veil of Darkness in order to avoid combat midgame?

Is this all legal?

If my opponent fields a carnifex can he walk it up the board and decide midgame wether the carnifex has +I, +WS +W which totals up to 25 points or wether i prefer to use +Sv which cost exactly the same as long as my total roster for the army never exceeds the agreed point limit?

What in the rulebook would prevent me from doing such things? the rules on page 86 are written vaguely I cannot undersatnd them well so can anyone explain how it works? And what is allowed/what isn't?

Is NOT GOING OVER AGREED POINT LIMIT the only rule subject to choosing forces? With everything else being interchangeable after the game is already in progress?

Thanks for your help.

**Dracos**

No, choosing the force happens prior to the start of the game. You must have the force selected before the game starts, down to the last detail of wargear.

**Eternal Newb**

Dracos is correct. You cannot change your list around during a game.

**murdog**

Saving points for in-game upgrades would be a house rule. I've played warhammer for twenty years and never heard of it, but it would be fun for some flavour. Most games, points are agreed in advance, each player builds a list and comes to the table. The big question is whether or not to show the lists before the game or not. As long as the models reflect the list, no reason you can't just look at lists after the game. I don't have much experience with organized tourneys, maybe someone could fill us in on how they handle lists.

**Ridcully**

Every codex should have an army list section that tells you to decide what models you will take, and what upgrades they will have, before the game. You spend your points prior to the game, when you're deciding what army you will take. Read your codex, or tell him/her to read theirs.

@murdog: The rulebook says full disclosure (ie lists before, during, and after the game) is the norm in tournaments. I've only participated in a few tournaments, but this is indeed the norm around here.

**Akaiyou**

Ah ok thank you all it appears that I am NOT crazy.

I've been debating this point for days now, with the planet diplomacy campaign organizer and the Ork player that beat me.

Because low and behold that's exactly what he did to me! He edited his force mid-game at his convenience and argues that this is all legal because he claims he never went over the points.

I asked the campaign organizer to count the game as invalid, since from my point of view and understanding of the rules the Ork player CLEARLY cheated.

And then the organizer actually supports the Ork player's claim that no where in the rules does it say that you CANNOT change your list mid-game. So I just needed to ask around online and see if i'm the only person on earth who doesn't change his list mid game.

So thanks to the many of you who confimed that i'm not the crazy one here.

**kirsanth**

Page 86.
"Once they have agreed to a points limit, the players will pick their forces. The best way to do this is to use the full army lists in the relevant Codex book"

That is step 1 in organizing a battle. Before even setting up the table.

There is plenty more text there backing up the notion that mid game force org changes are not legal.

**Gorkamorka**

Akaiyou wrote:
Because low and behold that's exactly what he did to me! He edited his force mid-game at his convenience and argues that this is all legal because he claims he never went over the points.

I asked the campaign organizer to count the game as invalid, since from my point of view and understanding of the rules the Ork player CLEARLY cheated.

And then the organizer actually supports the Ork player's claim

Ask him to say this within earshot of others. Then point out in the rules where he is wrong. Then share in the loud derision of him that everyone at the tournament aside from the ork player will partake in.
Then go find a tournament where the organizers aren't blatantly incompetent.

That or promptly abuse the hell out of this horribly broken ruling by swapping wargear, upgrades, and even units around by editing your list at will.
"Oh, you're charging my warboss? 3 hits? Well now he's on a bike for the extra toughness against wounds. Get a wound? Now he's in mega-armor for a 2+ save. Power weapons you say? He was actually Ghazkul all along. Waagh. " etc.

**Akaiyou**

This is an email he sent today in regards to the matter for those interested:

Let's get one thing straight...

Nothing in the rules (pg 86-87) states that one has to have a roster before a game, In fact, it is only required in tournaments. This is because tournament organizers need to validate the list prior to the games. No one wants the hassle of voiding games due to errors.

The rules only states that one needs to be within the point limit agreed upon and follow the prescribed force organization when they choose their forces. While a list can help itemize the forces, it is not an absolute requirement to have.

The only time a roster is mentioned is on page 92. This deals with letting your opponent review your roster. Even then, it does not specify how immediate a roster needed to be provided to the opponent. It may be common sense, but then again common sense is not the rule. It is only a guideline.

One can play a game with an opponent without a list written with their opponent's consent. If you agree to play them anyways, then you must accept this limitation. You can always refuse to play someone without a completed roster at the time.

Lesson here is that if you agree to play someone without a list to begin with, don't call foul afterwards that they performed an illegal procedure in your book.

In addition, there are some flaws to accepting rosters as absolutes.

#1 who is to say that one could not carry a second list to fit the situation?
#2 who is to say a player didn't make a mistake while following their proper list?
#3 who is to say that memories didn't get fuzzy after time?

but wait, you say... you're telling the truth, you say... The question I have is how can I verify what you are telling me? Why should I believe your word over the other person? The burden of proof is the accuser. The person being accused is innocent until proven guilty. It is not that I refuse to see certain view points. It is that certain view points cannot be verified. If it cannot be verified, it is hearsay. I cannot use hearsay to rule against someone else. If you expect me to be fair and impartial, this is the standard I use.

The only verifible truth after the fact is what was actually fielded in the game. IE, hey I had to kill 12 tyranids when your squad on the list only had 9 paid for. Or, wait, you used multabombs on one of your squads when none of the squads had paid for the upgrade. If you have photos, great! It makes my life easier.

Since I am not going to bother second guessing people, if anyone accepts to play against someone who does not have a written list, it is their own fault for creating the situation. I will only bother with situations where they actually exceeded their allowed point total.

Like Nathan said, GW rules are open to fudging. They did not set out to make cohesive rules like other competitive games. As such, you'll just have to accept how I choose to do things.

Charles
Campaign Organizer

and this was my response to him 5 minute ago in regards to that lastest email:

I did mention several times that we could ask online and that was becaues i was asking online as we spoke and debated the matter on here. And i just needed to know if it was just me that felt you can't change the list midway no matter what.

Even though as you pointed out others did point out that there's nothing specifically saying you cannot, everyone does agree that at the very least this is very poor sportsmanship if not flat out cheating.

And also over and over again the matter i was bringing up to your attention was that he changed his list. Rules say the opponent can show the list after the game (which is what he did) and like you said he doesnt have to show it immediately after.

Wether or not he shows his list before the game or after assuming that he has a list (which is what he said to me that he DID have a list and that it was the one he emailed to me) then all rules to the game have been satisfied.

Now that his list did not match what he played was something I noticed right away and saw he was over on points as well as that he edited his list mid way to suit the situation. And i kept pointing this out to you and you refuse to accept it for lack of proof.

So here is a scenario I present to you to show you why saying 'there was no list during the game to confirm this' doesnt really work.

The rules never say you MUST show your opponent your list prior to the game beginning. Disclosure can be done AFTER the game.

That means that you can STILL alter your list during the game according to what you are stating. And at the end of the game you reveal your list to your opponent and your opponent says 'hey! you used a ton of flamers but in your list all your weapons are melta guns! you changed it during the game because i had no tanks just infantry! you cheated!'

Then what??

How do you PROVE this as the player that was cheated? If no one else was there to witness the game. If the cheater comes to you and sends you a battle report of the game claiming to win. What protects the other person against this? When he comes to you and says 'hey! that game didn't count the other dude meltaguns in his list but used them as flamers in the game when he saw i had no tanks!' Are you going to say 'well what proof do you have? If you can't show proof then the game has to count because you played it, even if your opponent's written list didnt match what he actually used in game.

Please answer that.

**kirsanth**

"A note on secrecy" does use "roster", singular.

Even with "a feel of secrecy around their lists" people need lists. And there can be no secret list without a list.

That said, I would think that email, and the "logic" behind it is reason not to play with that person, or that person's campaign . . . organization.

ymmv

**pretre**

To Charles, Campaign Organizer: Way to completely duck responsibility for managing the campaign and forcing back on the person requesting redress.

Charles the Campaign Organizer wrote:Lesson here is that if you agree to play someone without a list to begin with, don't call foul afterwards that they performed an illegal procedure in your book.

Translation: Sorry you were silly enough to play in my campaign. There is no expectation that people will have lists or even play fair.

Charles the Campaign Organizer wrote:
Since I am not going to bother second guessing people, if anyone accepts to play against someone who does not have a written list, it is their own fault for creating the situation. I will only bother with situations where they actually exceeded their allowed point total.

Translation: I can't be bothered to do the right thing. It's your fault for playing in my campaign. Even if you have someone go over points, I won't do anything because you don't have photos.

Charles the Campaign Organizer wrote:
Like Nathan said, GW rules are open to fudging. They did not set out to make cohesive rules like other competitive games. As such, you'll just have to accept how I choose to do things.

Translation: GW is bad and it is my way or the highway.

This guy is great!

**Gorkamorka**

Akaiyou wrote:
The rules only states that one needs to be within the point limit agreed upon and follow the prescribed force organization when they choose their forces. While a list can help itemize the forces, it is not an absolute requirement to have.
...
Lesson here is that if you agree to play someone without a list to begin with, don't call foul afterwards that they performed an illegal procedure in your book.
...
Since I am not going to bother second guessing people, if anyone accepts to play against someone who does not have a written list, it is their own fault for creating the situation. I will only bother with situations where they actually exceeded their allowed point total.

Haha, oh wow.

Especially after reading the response, where you state he emailed a list to you in advance.

**RustyKnight**

Either of these folks have a Dakka account? If not, make them make 'em for group mocking.

**Kilkrazy**

In my experience of nearly 30 years playing a variety of different games, it is highly irregular to change your list during a battle.

Most players would consider it to be cheating.

In my view the game setup saying you choose your forces before starting a battle means you can't choose forces after starting a battle. Forces means a roster and list or what else does it mean?

Since the campaign umpire wants to run it that way, you have two choices.

1. Resign from the campaign, stating your reasons in a polite and clear way.
2. Get the umpire to specify in writing what he means by allowing people to change their forces during a battle. If his rules allow it, continue with the campaign and take maximum advantage as suggested above, by continually swapping units and wargear, even by swapping armies if you like. It isn't specifically forbidden by the rules!

Viz. I've chosen my force, it's a collection of models which conform to the Org Chart. I'm not saying what the points have been spent on because I don't have to.

If you do this, make sure you have proper models for everything you want to swap around, because of WYSIWYG.

No.2 will probably result in your being thrown out of the campaign anyway.

**Iron_Chaos_Brute**

RustyKnight wrote:Either of these folks have a Dakka account? If not, make them make 'em for group mocking.

I agree completely, unequivocally, and irrefutably with RustyKnight.

**Mannahnin**

Oh yeah???

Well I agree completely, unequivocally, and irrefutably with Kilkrazy!

**Gwar!**

I agree with Gwar!

And so should all of you!

**psf3077**

Gwar! wrote:I agree with Gwar!

And so should all of you!

Diddo!

But, I'm still trying to see any glimmer to the logic they are using. B/C it does not say you cant change your list, then you can???!!! If I was playing that, I would have a far better WLT record.

**Iron_Chaos_Brute**

Gwar! wrote:I agree with Gwar!

And so should all of you!

Mannahnin wrote:Oh yeah???

Well I agree completely, unequivocally, and irrefutably with Kilkrazy!

I agree with both of these gentlemen's products and/or services. If only they made some sort of extraatmospheric passageway or manufacturing spire...

**Gwar!**

I do believe sir, that a company that trades under the moniker of Litko Aerosystems might be able to help you...

**yakface**

Do not walk, but RUN from this campaign.

I have seem some terrible, terrible choices made by individuals running campaigns before, but the response you got from Charles is absolutely mind-blowing.

You should get out now as it can only get worse from here on out.

**PanzerLeader**

yakface wrote:
Do not walk, but RUN from this campaign.

I have seem some terrible, terrible choices made by individuals running campaigns before, but the response you got from Charles is absolutely mind-blowing.

You should get out now as it can only get worse from here on out.

QFT. I've played 40K for the past 9 years now and have never, ever seen something like this. Seriously. Even the newest 40K players back when Russ and John owned a store were taught from the very beginning that you wrote down your army list before you started and that was what you had to fight the battle. If it didn't work for you, then you could modify it before your next game and find something that did. That is simply a butt hurt orc player kicking himself for some poor decisions and fixing it mid game rather than taking his lumps.

**kirsanth**

Glad to know it is not just me.

**Shas'O Dorian**

Imo, listen to Gwar, he knows what's up and should probably be given well over 6 figures to proof-read GW's material.

**Gwar!**

Shas'O Dorian wrote:Imo, listen to Gwar, he knows what's up and should probably be given well over 6 figures to proof-read GW's material.

This man speaks pure concentrated Wisdom.

**porkuslime**

What the hell sort of campaign organizer is that? (and what is his age and alleged pedigree for running a campaign?)

Do not walk, nor run from that situation.. use a Jump Pack!

Edit.. GWAR! is right! (mostly) (when he wants to be)(often)(when the moon is full)

**coredump**

It isn't worth much time, but what happened is not quite what Akaiyou has described.

His opponent forgot his list, so they *both agreed* that he could do it from memory.

They played the game, the opponent sent his list, which was not quite correct. He sent the list again, which was correct. The *only* difference between the two lists was one MegaNob, and extra armor on a squadron of Kans.

Did the Ork player purposely change things, and do a poor job of covering up? Maybe.
Did the Ork player play legit and just sent the wrong list initially? Maybe.
Did the Ork player try and be legit, but make a mistake during the game? Maybe.
Is there anyway for the Organizer to *know* which is true? No.

There is nothing to indicate that changes were made during the game, nor that things were added during the game.

And despite the implications in this thread, the organizer did *not* say it was okay to change the list, nor did he say it was okay to fill in points during the game. (The Organizer has chimed in on a different forum.)

And remember folks, this is meant to be a friendly campaign, not a competitive tourney. It is 20 odd players in loose teams playing when they can, and as often as they can.
The Organizers point, is that if you are going to play without rosters, small mistakes may happen; if that is going to send you into a tizzyfit, prompting you to make misleading posts all over the internet... then you should not play without written rosters.
As an organizer, he has no way of knowing which side has the correct 'memory' of the game.

From the Ork perspective.... He played a game, from memory. Got home, sent the wrong list. Made the *minor* corrections, and sent it again.

**Ridcully**

I've forgotten my list before, but i take 5 minutes of my time to rewrite something similar as quick as possible from memory (usually with points strangely left over). Sometimes it looks like i wrote it with a squiggle pen if i write it on the bus trip there.

**Akaiyou**

coredump wrote:It isn't worth much time, but what happened is not quite what Akaiyou has described.

His opponent forgot his list, so they *both agreed* that he could do it from memory.

They played the game, the opponent sent his list, which was not quite correct. He sent the list again, which was correct. The *only* difference between the two lists was one MegaNob, and extra armor on a squadron of Kans.

Did the Ork player purposely change things, and do a poor job of covering up? Maybe.
Did the Ork player play legit and just sent the wrong list initially? Maybe.
Did the Ork player try and be legit, but make a mistake during the game? Maybe.
Is there anyway for the Organizer to *know* which is true? No.

There is nothing to indicate that changes were made during the game, nor that things were added during the game.

And despite the implications in this thread, the organizer did *not* say it was okay to change the list, nor did he say it was okay to fill in points during the game. (The Organizer has chimed in on a different forum.)

And remember folks, this is meant to be a friendly campaign, not a competitive tourney. It is 20 odd players in loose teams playing when they can, and as often as they can.
The Organizers point, is that if you are going to play without rosters, small mistakes may happen; if that is going to send you into a tizzyfit, prompting you to make misleading posts all over the internet... then you should not play without written rosters.
As an organizer, he has no way of knowing which side has the correct 'memory' of the game.

From the Ork perspective.... He played a game, from memory. Got home, sent the wrong list. Made the *minor* corrections, and sent it again.

Except for the part that the organizer has insisted that we play games in good faith and use the honor system so in good faith I allowed for the Ork player to email me his list after the game.

And through several text messages he kept trying to wiggle his way out of the responsibility for a botched game. Openly admitting that he cheated and it didn't matter wether he proxied without telling me he was proxying and that he changed things mid way and that there was nothing saying that he can't do so as long as he's at the correct point limit in the final result.

And that when I promptly referenced pg 86 of the rulebook to both him and the CO, they both seemed to dismiss it as too vague and that the ONLY reason for an army list was to ensure that people don't go over the point limit.

Thus prompting me to ask around online and see if this was true. In a very neutral way which you can see from all the earlier posters attacking me for 'thinking' that way.

And in the post I gave the same examples I was giving to the Ork player and the CO i didn't not suddenly alter my argument or anything to my benefit. I made the same exact argument in my first post using slightly different examples (i used a necron lord where as i was mostly using a carnifex as an example)

So if I tell you 'dude you cant change upgrades midway that's illegal' and you tell me 'well the rules are vague'

What else are you telling me other than "I support the notion that you COULD change upgrades mid way"

Please answer that Core.

**coredump**

You have posted (here and elsewhere) emails from the To, chat exchanges from the Ork player, and emails from the ork player. In addition, the TO has posted in another forum.

In all of that, the Ork player and TO have *not* said what you now claim they say.
The Ork player does not say he cheated, nor changed anything.
The TO did *not* say it was okay to change wargear, in fact, he said the exact opposite.
According to *you* on the chats, you knew about the proxying, and complained after the fact.
The TO did *not* say the roster was only for point limits.....