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None of these bastards will ever vacation in Rome again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8343123.stm
CIA agents guilty of Italy kidnap

An Italian judge has convicted 23 Americans - all but one of them CIA agents - and two Italian secret agents for the 2003 kidnap of a Muslim cleric.

The agents were accused of abducting Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, known as Abu Omar, from Milan and sending him to Egypt, where he was allegedly tortured.

The trial, which began in June 2007, is the first involving the CIA's so-called "extraordinary rendition" programme.

The Obama administration has expressed its disappointment at the convictions.

"We are disappointed by the verdicts," state department spokesman Ian Kelly said in Washington.

He declined to comment further pending a written opinion from the judge, but said an appeal was likely.

Three Americans and five Italians were acquitted by the court in Milan.

Well, that's like sending somebody a letter telling them a library book is overdue after they've moved out of town.

Wow, I didn't like that quip so much that I wanted it posted twice.

That's better!

It's a bit more serious than that.
Heh. Maybe the italians should send in a special team to abduct 'em.

Hope the CIA members don't have too much of their time wasted as some judge tries to make an international stand.

They've got terrorists to capture.

I think it would be great if they were illegally abducted. I'd find that hilarious.

So... they don't actually have any of the Americans they're convicting in their custody?

I guess this kind of thing should be on the books, but I don't know if it's going to mean much over all.

It won't, no.
It's still funny though.

Hope the CIA members don't have too much of their time wasted as some judge tries to make an international stand.

They've got terrorists to capture.

It's exactly this sort of arrogant 'we can do whatever we want, buddy!' American attitude that does more to swell the ranks of Al Qaida than any radical cleric could ever do.
Shame on you - how can you support illegal kidnap and torture?

Albatross wrote:It's exactly this sort of arrogant 'we can do whatever we want, buddy!' American attitude that does more to swell the ranks of Al Qaida than any radical cleric could ever do.

I think you forgot...

and two Italian secret agents

And the Egypt was involved as well, but I guess putting on blinders and blaming the US alone is just easier.

Albatross wrote:Shame on you - how can you support illegal kidnap and torture?

No, shame on you for being a finger pointer with half information and a lust for a sense of moral superiority. It is amusing that you arrogantly make blanket statements criticizing others for being so arrogant. That level of cognitive dissonance is impressive.

Orkeosaurus wrote:So... they don't actually have any of the Americans they're convicting in their custody?

I guess this kind of thing should be on the books, but I don't know if it's going to mean much over all.

Well, it brings the issue into the light of the public. To the extent that the public care that their governments are abducting people and ferrying them around the world to be tortured, is the extent to which this matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:And the Egypt was involved as well, but I guess putting on blinders and blaming the US alone is just easier.

And the German government was complicit in another abduction. There's no shortage of blame to be passed around.

No dreamy Italian getaway for them!

The Americans were all tried in their absence

..didn't think that was legal over here anymore..?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_absentia

olympia wrote:
The Obama administration has expressed its disappointment at the convictions.

"We are disappointed by the verdicts," state department spokesman Ian Kelly said in Washington.

And that is how a reporter states the obvious kids....

Kilkrazy wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_absentia

yeah, seems there was, for us anyway, a legal change.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7596633.stm

But opponents say it would represent a major change to British law, where trials in absentia were until 2001 banned and are still extremely rare

Man, was I wrong..

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article4664049.ece

I knew the EAW was a terrible thing but... holy crap that's bad.

Da Boss wrote:It's a bit more serious than that.
Heh. Maybe the italians should send in a special team to abduct 'em.

That would be great. I hope the CIA criminals send care packages to their Italian accomplices who ARE going to jail.

It's obvious though that the people behind it are getting away with it. After all, the guy who actually authorised it seems to be escaping retribution due to 'state secrecy laws'.

Has this REALLY achieved anything other than publicly damning a few scapegoats? (regardless of how involved they may have been)

No not really.
But if it highlights to people the shady business thier governments are getting up to, that's good, to my mind.

Albatross wrote:

Hope the CIA members don't have too much of their time wasted as some judge tries to make an international stand.

They've got terrorists to capture.

It's exactly this sort of arrogant 'we can do whatever we want, buddy!' American attitude that does more to swell the ranks of Al Qaida than any radical cleric could ever do.
Shame on you - how can you support illegal kidnap and torture?

All this would have been avoided had the British not been so arrogant as to break up the old Ottoman empire after WWI. Thanks Britain for screwing us all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

olympia wrote:

Da Boss wrote:It's a bit more serious than that.
Heh. Maybe the italians should send in a special team to abduct 'em.

That would be great. I hope the CIA criminals send care packages to their Italian accomplices who ARE going to jail.

Wait you're ticked off because they grabbed a terrorist? They should have Treadstoned him instead.

Yes, I'm afraid we British left our dabs over an awful lot of the world.

The problem was compounded by lesser nations wanting to horn in on the Empire business, which led them to scramble round and scarf up whatever they could in all sorts of odd places.

Frazzled wrote:
Wait you're ticked off because they grabbed a terrorist? They should have Treadstoned him instead.

Terrorist? He was never charged with a crime. He was never convicted of a crime. He, as of right now, is a free man.

Seriously...you went to law school?

Crime is irrelevant. Thats the problem its not the mob, its a war. We didn't try to arrest Yammamoto, we sent a squadron of P-38s to blow his brains out. Catch the difference?

As usual, when we talk about these things, the disconnect is that you don't require the intelligence agencies to present and proof that someone is a terrorist in court.
I, and others who don't support blanket attacks on "likely suspects" don't agree with that.
Am I misrepresenting you by the way? It took me some time to understand your POV because it is pretty alien to mine.

You're from Ireland right? You don't really think the British just arrested all the IRA guys they found or suspected right?

If I supported blanket attacks most of the Middle East would be radioactive.

Wikipedia wrote:He is a member of al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, an Islamic organisation dedicated to the overthrow of the Egyptian government. The group has been linked to the murder of Anwar Sadat in 1981 and a terrorist campaign in the 1990s that culminated in the November 1997 Luxor massacre. As a result it is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and European Union. After the Egyptians declared the group illegal, Nasr sought asylum in Italy.

He is a voluntary member of a known terrorist organization.

His abduction does not bother me.

His allegations of torture are substantiated how?

Frazzled wrote:You're from Ireland right? You don't really think the British just arrested all the IRA guys they found or suspected right?

If I supported blanket attacks most of the Middle East would be radioactive.

This is confused and confusing.

Translation of whiny butt comments:

He's a human being and has rights. You're just being an evil American fascist. Frankly the world was a paradise until you and the US came along and spoiled everything. You guys suck. Not us. We're enlightened because we've been at peace while US troops, tanks, and money kept the wolf at bay. We've never done anything like you guys did ever. What? whats a text book?


EDIT: I'll let you call me evil now and feel better about yourself.

Well frazzled you are either incapable of a rational discussion or you wish to avoid one.

Says the guy with Guinness as his avatar?

Because I disagree with you I'm clearly irrational, so I'll choose A.

MagickalMemories wrote:

Wikipedia wrote:He is a member of al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, an Islamic organisation dedicated to the overthrow of the Egyptian government. The group has been linked to the murder of Anwar Sadat in 1981 and a terrorist campaign in the 1990s that culminated in the November 1997 Luxor massacre. As a result it is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and European Union. After the Egyptians declared the group illegal, Nasr sought asylum in Italy.

He is a voluntary member of a known terrorist organization.

His abduction does not bother me.

His allegations of torture are substantiated how?

Mubarak is, of course, a dictator. I suspect that majority of Egyptians would support his overthrow through free elections, or barring those, the use of violence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:Says the guy with Guinness as his avatar?

Because I disagree with you I'm clearly irrational, so I'll choose A.

The fact that you disagree with me only makes you wrong, not necessarily irrational. It's the weird rants about nuking the middle east and the IRA that throw me.