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Hey everyone.
Some issues came up recently during games & I would just like to see what the general consensus is on the rules for these problems.
Firstly.
Senario 1.
I have free flamers on my Chimera.
The Chimera shoots a Multilaser at a unit say 20" away.
In front of the chimera is a unit of Orks. I know that the flamer template cannot hit the unit 20" away, but I still fire it at it anyway. During this process the Orks in front of the Chimera are hit by the flamer.
Now the problem is, can I actually do that? Although I know that the unit was out of reach, there is nothing that says I can't fire the flamer aimed at the targeted unit, but hit another unit by chance/mistake etc, etc.
What do ya'll think?
(I did not claim the extra hits in the interest of fair play).
Senario 2.
I have a group of Vets with Flamers in a Chimera.
I want to shoot out of the top of the Chimera but strictly speaking I can't because I have to shoot out of the hatch & the Template will touch the Tank.... Thoughts?
(my opponent let me do this in the interest of fair play)
Senario 3.
My opponent keeps bitching at me using my Hellhound & angling the flamer template to score maximum hits. All it says in the codex is the small end has to be closer than the large one. My opponent thinks I have to shoot it in a straight line..... Thoughts?
(I told him to go fish!)

Any thoughts would be great!

Scenario 1:

Flamer would still need to target something to fire ,
as its not a guess weapon you cant just randomly fire it and hit the ones infront.

Either way you have to aim at the same target , no exceptions.

Well that's my point. I was aiming at the same target, although it was too far away to hit. The guys in front of the Tank were just in the way!

Klueless wrote:Well that's my point. I was aiming at the same target, although it was too far away to hit. The guys in front of the Tank were just in the way!

Then you cant hit with the flamers as they are too far away.

Fair enough. Senario 2 & 3?

Klueless wrote:Fair enough. Senario 2 & 3?

scenario 2 = i dunno .

scenario 3 = The flame template should be at straight 90 degree angle from the turret nozzle , but you can probably swivel the turret / pivot the tank chasis for the haul flamer .
( here is a thread discussing exactly that: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/264773.page )

( disclaimer , im not an active gamer. all ideas are just possibilities ( though the chance im wrong are higher than right! ) so wait for Gwar!

That does not exactly install much faith. Cheers for the thread though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you haven't really cleared up Senario 3 much. As it's a ranged template weapon, & as such doesn't touch the nozzle of the turret!
Thanks for posting though. I'll see what others have to say.

#3. As long as the narrow end is closer to the tank than the broad end, it doesn't matter if it is sideways. You are following the restrictions of the weapon.

They rotate turret to here, fire and backtrack, leaving a burning arc of fuel. Your friend should try playing by the rules instead of crying in his kool-aid.

Ninja edit: #1. If the hull flamer is out of range of the target unit, it misses automatically and doesn't fire at all. This is different from a situation where the target unit is 7" in front of you, where it can hit the same unit.

LoL! Love it! I've always played it as this anyway & never had a problem before. The guy I play against a lot now is new in my circle of friends.
Thanks for clearing that up dude.

Klueless wrote:Hey everyone.
Some issues came up recently during games & I would just like to see what the general consensus is on the rules for these problems.
Firstly.
Senario 1.
I have free flamers on my Chimera.
The Chimera shoots a Multilaser at a unit say 20" away.
In front of the chimera is a unit of Orks. I know that the flamer template cannot hit the unit 20" away, but I still fire it at it anyway. During this process the Orks in front of the Chimera are hit by the flamer.
Now the problem is, can I actually do that? Although I know that the unit was out of reach, there is nothing that says I can't fire the flamer aimed at the targeted unit, but hit another unit by chance/mistake etc, etc.
What do ya'll think?
(I did not claim the extra hits in the interest of fair play).
Senario 2.
I have a group of Vets with Flamers in a Chimera.
I want to shoot out of the top of the Chimera but strictly speaking I can't because I have to shoot out of the hatch & the Template will touch the Tank.... Thoughts?
(my opponent let me do this in the interest of fair play)
Senario 3.
My opponent keeps bitching at me using my Hellhound & angling the flamer template to score maximum hits. All it says in the codex is the small end has to be closer than the large one. My opponent thinks I have to shoot it in a straight line..... Thoughts?
(I told him to go fish!)

Any thoughts would be great!

Scenario 1

Pretty sure the flamer can't fire at all based on the standard shooting rule which says "Any model that is found to be out of range of all of the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically" and each weapon in a vehicle is pretty much an individual model firing.

It's certainly a bit dubious though.

Scenario 2

It's pretty hotly debated, strictly by RAW, no you can't fire from the hatch because the template would touch the transport, although I doubt many opponents would enforce this, most people I know play the way you did.

Scenario 3

You are right here, whatever angle you want is fine in this situation, it's a unique feature of the hellhound, just as long as the small end is closer to the tank than large end you are all good.

Cheers matey! I appreciate you helping me mop this mess up!

Scenario 1:
As have been mentioned the flamer automatically misses if you cannot reach any models in the target unit. If you can however, all models under the template are hit.

Scenario 2:
I think most people play it the way you do. It would seem to be the best solution to me.

Scenario 3:
Yeah, you should tell him to go fish! As long as the narrow end is closer to the turret than the large end you are following the rules perfectly.

Klueless wrote:Senario 1.
I have free flamers on my Chimera.
The Chimera shoots a Multilaser at a unit say 20" away.
In front of the chimera is a unit of Orks. I know that the flamer template cannot hit the unit 20" away, but I still fire it at it anyway. During this process the Orks in front of the Chimera are hit by the flamer.
Now the problem is, can I actually do that? Although I know that the unit was out of reach, there is nothing that says I can't fire the flamer aimed at the targeted unit, but hit another unit by chance/mistake etc, etc.
What do ya'll think?
(I did not claim the extra hits in the interest of fair play).

No, the flamer is out of range, so it automatically misses.

Senario 2.
I have a group of Vets with Flamers in a Chimera.
I want to shoot out of the top of the Chimera but strictly speaking I can't because I have to shoot out of the hatch & the Template will touch the Tank.... Thoughts?
(my opponent let me do this in the interest of fair play)

RaW, you cannot fire the vets flamers.

Senario 3.
My opponent keeps bitching at me using my Hellhound & angling the flamer template to score maximum hits. All it says in the codex is the small end has to be closer than the large one. My opponent thinks I have to shoot it in a straight line..... Thoughts?
(I told him to go fish!)

Your opponent is incorrect.

1. As above, it automatically misses if the target unit is out of range. But if the target unit is within range, you get to hit every model covered, including models in other units.

2. Thanks to the GW editors not thinking it through, technically this makes it impossible for a flamer to fire from a top hatch. But I’ve never met anyone who plays it that way. We just ignore the tank being under the template.

3. The hellhound has its own unique rules for the placement of its template. Follow the ones in its own entry.

I have a question !

Say i have 2 heavy flamer on my chimera and veterans with flamers sitting in it.

Am i allowed to place ALL the templates comming out from the turret nozzle?

LunaHound wrote:
I have a question !

Say i have 2 heavy flamer on my chimera and veterans with flamers sitting in it.

Am i allowed to place ALL the templates comming out from the turret nozzle?

No because the transport and the models it carries are 2 separate units. You measure the vehicle's firing from the weapons and the transported unit's firing from the fire points.

time wizard wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
I have a question !

Say i have 2 heavy flamer on my chimera and veterans with flamers sitting in it.

Am i allowed to place ALL the templates comming out from the turret nozzle?

No because the transport and the models it carries are 2 separate units. You measure the vehicle's firing from the weapons and the transported unit's firing from the fire points.

AND, because they are two different units, you have to resolve the damage from one of the units before firing the next, so the damage done by the second unit to fire would probably be much less.

Scenario #2 is another variant of the "Can you fire a template weapon from the top hatch of a rhino?" Given the number of marine variant players who would like to be able to do drive by flaming, you can pretty much expect to get a GaP allowance to do it, even though RaW you're not supposed to do it.

LunaHound wrote:

Klueless wrote:Well that's my point. I was aiming at the same target, although it was too far away to hit. The guys in front of the Tank were just in the way!

Then you cant hit with the flamers as they are too far away.

WHAT?But they still hit the orks man!!!!They're template check the rules, the orks are gone and the target at 20" isn't simple.as.that.

Klueless wrote:Hey everyone.
Some issues came up recently during games & I would just like to see what the general consensus is on the rules for these problems.
Firstly.
Senario 1.
I have free flamers on my Chimera.
The Chimera shoots a Multilaser at a unit say 20" away.
In front of the chimera is a unit of Orks. I know that the flamer template cannot hit the unit 20" away, but I still fire it at it anyway. During this process the Orks in front of the Chimera are hit by the flamer.
Now the problem is, can I actually do that? Although I know that the unit was out of reach, there is nothing that says I can't fire the flamer aimed at the targeted unit, but hit another unit by chance/mistake etc, etc.
What do ya'll think?
(I did not claim the extra hits in the interest of fair play).

No you cannot. If you're found to be out of range with a weapon, it automatically misses. You can place the template all you like, just the guys underneath are auto-missed

Senario 2.
I have a group of Vets with Flamers in a Chimera.
I want to shoot out of the top of the Chimera but strictly speaking I can't because I have to shoot out of the hatch & the Template will touch the Tank.... Thoughts?
(my opponent let me do this in the interest of fair play)

By RAW, no you cannot. Indeed, you wouldn't even be able to fire a template weapon from a Chimera's turret (or a Banewolf, for that matter), by RAW. Most people will let it go, though.

Senario 3.
My opponent keeps bitching at me using my Hellhound & angling the flamer template to score maximum hits. All it says in the codex is the small end has to be closer than the large one. My opponent thinks I have to shoot it in a straight line..... Thoughts?
(I told him to go fish!)

You are right, your opponent should go fish. Get him to read the description for the Inferno Cannon himself; it's very clear that it can be placed on any angle as long as the narrow end is closer than the fat end. I explain this to my opponents as being like the gunner is dousing an area which is represented by the template, starting at one end and then turning the turret slowly towards the other end. It's not like a normal flamer that just shoots flames that fan outwards as they project.

r3n3g8b0y wrote:WHAT?But they still hit the orks man!!!!They're template check the rules, the orks are gone and the target at 20" isn't simple.as.that.

What part of any shooting that is found to not be in range auto misses are you struggling to cope with?

As soon as you find the template is out of range of the *target* then it automatically misses. If it automatically misses *nothing* can be hurt. Nothing.

Thanks to everyone above for taking the time to comment. This will make some good reading to my opponent. We usually do come to a balanced decision when we can't figure out certain aspects of the rules IE- He did let me shoot my flamer vets & I didn't claim the extra hits on the Ork's. It's all in the spirit of fair play. The only real problem he had was with the Hellhound & I did try my best to explain it as clear as possible. Then I just decided to burn him of the table for arguing with me...!
Thanks again guys. It's always good to get a varied range of answers.
Klueless.

Klueless wrote:Thanks again guys. It's always good to get a varied range of answers.

Not really.

It's good to get the same answer from different people, but it is not good to have people posting incorrect information.

r3n3g8b0y wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Klueless wrote:Well that's my point. I was aiming at the same target, although it was too far away to hit. The guys in front of the Tank were just in the way!

Then you cant hit with the flamers as they are too far away.

WHAT?But they still hit the orks man!!!!They're template check the rules, the orks are gone and the target at 20" isn't simple.as.that.

Posts like this are of no real help in a debate about rules, if you cannot contribute in a meaningful manner then don't.

Thank you.

Gwar! wrote:

Klueless wrote:Thanks again guys. It's always good to get a varied range of answers.

Not really.

It's good to get the same answer from different people, but it is not good to have people posting incorrect information.

Unless you get the same wrong answer from different people

-Yad

Yad wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Klueless wrote:Thanks again guys. It's always good to get a varied range of answers.

Not really.

It's good to get the same answer from different people, but it is not good to have people posting incorrect information.

Unless you get the same wrong answer from different people

-Yad

I actually do find that somewhat helpful as well. At least then you can learn that it is a commonly misplayed/confused/house ruled part of the game that needs discussion.

Not only was your opponent incorrect but the template rules specifically say you have to place the template in order to score maximum hits anyway, if I'm not mistaken.
The rest is just a matter of the vehicle's specifics. Is it hull-mounted? Turret? Sponson? etc. Even if a weapon -looks- like it just goes straight from the hull, there's always an angle in which they can fire. This goes for chimera flamers, too. Of course if the Hellhounds has specific rules about that, apply those.

Just for clarity, a turret mounted flame weapon can fire, as the rules for firing template weapons specifically say that the template must touch the firer. It's a different issue with occupants, as they are not the same model as the vehicle.

The occupant are not on the table however, so the template must touch -something- which would be the vehicle's fire point, which is part of the vehicle. No?

oh! oh! i got a question!

If i have a flamer, right, and i have a melta gun in the same squad. Theres a trukk in front of my, full o' boyz, and a bunch of boyz next to the trukk, opposite of me. Here is a crude diagram:



B: Boyz!
T: Trukk!
M: Me!
F: Flamer!







BBBBBBBBBBBBB
BBBBBBBBBBB
TTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTT
TTTTTTTTTT

M F M M M
M M M M M M


Now, my question is, if i shoot the truck with my Melta and flamer, can the flamer hit the boyz on the otherside of the trukk?

Now, to make it tricky: what if the trukk is a rhino? My flamer cannot actually hurt the rhino's side armour (can from behind though ), but since i'm firing from the same squad a melta gun which has a (rather good ) chance of popping it... can i flame at the same time to hit the boyz (marines ) behind the rhino?


cheers