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Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34392959/ns/us_news-environment/?GT1=43001

Review: Climate e-mails petty, not fraudulent
Climate experts, AP reporters go through 1,000 exchanges
By Seth Borenstein, Raphael Satter and Malcolm Ritter
The Associated Press
updated 12:18 p.m. ET, Sat., Dec . 12, 2009

LONDON - E-mails stolen from climate scientists show they stonewalled skeptics and discussed hiding data — but the messages don't support claims that the science of global warming was faked, according to an exhaustive review by The Associated Press.

The 1,073 e-mails examined by the AP show that scientists harbored private doubts, however slight and fleeting, even as they told the world they were certain about climate change. However, the exchanges don't undercut the vast body of evidence showing the world is warming because of man-made greenhouse gas emissions.

The scientists were keenly aware of how their work would be viewed and used, and, just like politicians, went to great pains to shape their message. Sometimes, they sounded more like schoolyard taunts than scientific tenets.

The scientists were so convinced by their own science and so driven by a cause "that unless you're with them, you're against them," said Mark Frankel, director of scientific freedom, responsibility and law at the American Association for the Advancement of Science. He also reviewed the communications.

Frankel saw "no evidence of falsification or fabrication of data, although concerns could be raised about some instances of very 'generous interpretations.'"

Some e-mails expressed doubts about the quality of individual temperature records or why models and data didn't quite match. Part of this is the normal give-and-take of research, but skeptics challenged how reliable certain data was.

The e-mails were stolen from the computer network server of the climate research unit at the University of East Anglia in southeast England, an influential source of climate science, and were posted online last month. The university shut down the server and contacted the police.

Million words reviewed
The AP studied all the e-mails for context, with five reporters reading and rereading them — about 1 million words in total.

One of the most disturbing elements suggests an effort to avoid sharing scientific data with critics skeptical of global warming. It is not clear if any data was destroyed; two U.S. researchers denied it.

The e-mails show that several mainstream scientists repeatedly suggested keeping their research materials away from opponents who sought it under American and British public records law. It raises a science ethics question because free access to data is important so others can repeat experiments as part of the scientific method. The University of East Anglia is investigating the blocking of information requests.

"I believe none of us should submit to these 'requests,'" declared the university's Keith Briffa in one e-mail. The center's chief, Phil Jones, e-mailed: "Data is covered by all the agreements we sign with people, so I will be hiding behind them."

When one skeptic kept filing Freedom of Information Act requests, Jones, who didn't return AP requests for comment, told another scientist, Michael Mann: "You can delete this attachment if you want. Keep this quiet also, but this is the person who is putting FOI requests for all e-mails Keith (Briffa) and Tim (Osborn) have written."

Mann, a researcher at Penn State University, told The Associated Press: "I didn't delete any e-mails as Phil asked me to. I don't believe anybody else did."

The e-mails also show how professional attacks turned very personal. When former London financial trader Douglas J. Keenan combed through the data used in a 1990 research paper Jones had co-authored, Keenan claimed to have found evidence of fakery by Jones' co-author. Keenan threatened to have the FBI arrest University at Albany scientist Wei-Chyung Wang for fraud. (A university investigation later cleared him of any wrongdoing.)

"I do now wish I'd never sent them the data after their FOIA request!" Jones wrote in June 2007.

In another case after initially balking on releasing data to a skeptic because it was already public, Lawrence Livermore National Lab scientist Ben Santer wrote that he then opted to release everything the skeptic wanted — and more. Santer said in a telephone interview that he and others are inundated by frivolous requests from skeptics that are designed to "tie-up government-funded scientists."

Contempt for contrarians
The e-mails also showed a stunning disdain for global warming skeptics.

One scientist practically celebrates the news of the death of one critic, saying, "In an odd way this is cheering news!" Another bemoans that the only way to deal with skeptics is "continuing to publish quality work in quality journals (or calling in a Mafia hit.)" And a third scientist said the next time he sees a certain skeptic at a scientific meeting, "I'll be tempted to beat the crap out of him. Very tempted."

And they compared contrarians to communist-baiting Sen. Joseph McCarthy and Somali pirates. They also called them out-and-out frauds.

Santer, who received death threats after his work on climate change in 1996, said Thursday: "I'm not surprised that things are said in the heat of the moment between professional colleagues. These things are taken out of context."

When the journal, Climate Research, published a skeptical study that turned out to be partly funded by the American Petroleum Institute, Penn State scientist Mann discussed retribution this way: "Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers in, this journal."

The most provocative e-mails are usually about one aspect of climate science: research from a decade ago that studied how warm or cold it was centuries ago through analysis of tree rings, ice cores and glacial melt. And most of those e-mails, which stretch from 1996 to last month, are from about a handful of scientists in dozens of e-mails.

Still, such research has been a key element in measuring climate change over long periods.

As part of the AP review, summaries of the e-mails that raised issues from the potential manipulation of data to intensely personal attacks were sent to seven experts in research ethics, climate science and science policy.

"This is normal science politics, but on the extreme end, though still within bounds," said Dan Sarewitz, a science policy professor at Arizona State University. "We talk about science as this pure ideal and the scientific method as if it is something out of a cookbook, but research is a social and human activity full of all the failings of society and humans, and this reality gets totally magnified by the high political stakes here."

In the past three weeks since the e-mails were posted, longtime opponents of mainstream climate science have repeatedly quoted excerpts of about a dozen e-mails. Republican congressmen and former vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin have called for either independent investigations, a delay in U.S. Environmental Protection Agency regulation of greenhouse gases or outright boycotts of the Copenhagen international climate talks. They cited a "culture of corruption" that the e-mails appeared to show.

'Trick' reference explained
That is not what the AP found. There were signs of trying to present the data as convincingly as possible.

One e-mail that skeptics have been citing often since the messages were posted online is from Jones. He says: "I've just completed Mike's (Mann) trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (from 1981 onward) and from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline."

Jones was referring to tree ring data that indicated temperatures after the 1950s weren't as warm as scientists had determined.

The "trick" that Jones said he was borrowing from Mann was to add the real temperatures, not what the tree rings showed. And the decline he talked of hiding was not in real temperatures, but in the tree ring data that was misleading, Mann explained.

Sometimes the data didn't line up as perfectly as scientists wanted.

David Rind told colleagues about inconsistent figures in the work for a giant international report: "As this continuing exchange has clarified, what's in Chapter 6 is inconsistent with what is in Chapter 2 (and Chapter 9 is caught in the middle!). Worse yet, we've managed to make global warming go away! (Maybe it really is that easy...."

But in the end, global warming didn't go away, according to the vast body of research over the years.

None of the e-mails flagged by the AP and sent to three climate scientists viewed as moderates in the field changed their view that global warming is man-made and a threat. Nor did it alter their support of the conclusions of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which some of the scientists helped write.

"My overall interpretation of the scientific basis for (man-made) global warming is unaltered by the contents of these e-mails," said Gabriel Vecchi, a National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration scientist.

Gerald North, a climate scientist at Texas A&M University, headed a National Academy of Sciences study that looked at — and upheld as valid — Mann's earlier studies that found the 1990s were the hottest years in centuries.

"In my opinion the meaning is much more innocent than might be perceived by others taken out of context. Much of this is overblown," North said.

Mann contends he always has been upfront about uncertainties, pointing to the title of his 1999 study: "Northern Hemisphere Temperatures During the Past Millennium: Inferences, Uncertainties and Limitations."

Several scientists found themselves tailoring their figures or retooling their arguments to answer online arguments — even as they claimed not to care what was being posted online.

"I don't read the blogs that regularly," Jonathan Overpeck of the University of Arizona wrote in 2005. "But I guess the skeptics are making hay of their (sic) being a global warm (sic) event around 1450AD."

'Good faith,' says one critic
One person singled out for criticism in the e-mails is Steve McIntyre, who maintains Climate Audit. The blog focuses on statistical issues with scientists' attempts to recreate the climate in ancient times.

"We find that the authors are overreaching in the conclusions that they're trying to draw from the data that they have," McIntyre said in a telephone interview.

McIntyre, 62, of Toronto, was trained in math and economics and says he is "substantially retired" from the mineral exploration industry, which produces greenhouse gases.

Some e-mails said McIntyre's attempts to get original data from scientists are frivolous and meant more for harassment than doing good science. There are allegations that he would distort and misuse data given to him.

McIntyre disagreed with how he is portrayed. "Everything that I've done in this, I've done in good faith," he said.

He also said he has avoided editorializing on the leaked e-mails. "Anything I say," he said, "is liable to be piling on."

The skeptics started the name-calling, said Mann, who called McIntyre a "bozo," a "fraud" and a "moron" in various e-mails.

"We're human," Mann said. "We've been under attack unfairly by these people who have been attempting to dismiss us as frauds as liars."

Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34392959/ns/us_news-environment/?GT1=43001

MSN Privacy . Legal
© 2009 MSNBC.com

 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





This will come as little surprise to the proponents of global warming, and will be ignored by it opponents.

Unfortunately the damage has already been done. There's been a month or two of right wing talking heads complaining about the evidence in the leaked emails, and it never mattered that no such evidence existed. It matters even less now.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Rasyat






Nope liberal media.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Sebster- Sad truth, sir.

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Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Wait, so you're saying that there isn't an international cabal of scientists, a group of people with the social skills and leadership of a talented hamster, actively deluding the public about the truth behind the science?

I don't know, it sounds far fetched. When I think savvy conspirators, I think "science majors."
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Minnesota

LONDON - E-mails stolen from climate scientists show they stonewalled skeptics and discussed hiding data — but the messages don't support claims that the science of global warming was faked, according to an exhaustive review by The Associated Press.

The 1,073 e-mails examined by the AP show that scientists harbored private doubts, however slight and fleeting, even as they told the world they were certain about climate change. However, the exchanges don't undercut the vast body of evidence showing the world is warming because of man-made greenhouse gas emissions.

The scientists were keenly aware of how their work would be viewed and used, and, just like politicians, went to great pains to shape their message. Sometimes, they sounded more like schoolyard taunts than scientific tenets.

The scientists were so convinced by their own science and so driven by a cause "that unless you're with them, you're against them," said Mark Frankel, director of scientific freedom, responsibility and law at the American Association for the Advancement of Science. He also reviewed the communications.

Frankel saw "no evidence of falsification or fabrication of data, although concerns could be raised about some instances of very 'generous interpretations.'"
That's all I would have been worried about in the first place.

Just making stuff up whole cloth would be pretty strange.

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
Made in ie
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

Doesn't suprise me that they tried to put a spin on it, having worked in scientific research. Also doesn't suprise me that they have doubts. I always assume a certain amount of spin whenever I see anything coming out of a research institute, and definitely they are likely to exaggerate the facts. Doesn't alter the fact that climate change is certainly happening and that humans contribute to it though.
Glad to see the overblown reaction deflated, interested to see that the rebuttal didn't attract as much of a response as the initial statement.

   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Da Boss wrote:Doesn't suprise me that they tried to put a spin on it, having worked in scientific research. Also doesn't suprise me that they have doubts. I always assume a certain amount of spin whenever I see anything coming out of a research institute, and definitely they are likely to exaggerate the facts. Doesn't alter the fact that climate change is certainly happening and that humans contribute to it though.
Glad to see the overblown reaction deflated, interested to see that the rebuttal didn't attract as much of a response as the initial statement.


It seems inconsistent with the theory that the media is dominated by leftist power.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Trust nothing. Believe no one. Just saying.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Omadon's Realm

Frazzled wrote:Trust nothing. Believe no one. Just saying.


Or take your pick between:

Some folks with nothing to profit from it telling us the world may be in trouble.

Some other folks, with lots to profit from it telling us there's no cause for alarm.

The question is not whether or not you're being paranoid, the question is whether you're being paranoid enough...



 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

Well, here we go, then ... My New Hat.



 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

It looks as if it is designed to let you clean windows as you genuflect.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Trust nothing. Believe no one. Just saying.


Or take your pick between:

Some folks with nothing to profit from it telling us the world may be in trouble.

Some other folks, with lots to profit from it telling us there's no cause for alarm.

The question is not whether or not you're being paranoid, the question is whether you're being paranoid enough...


Don't forget the folks who have billions to profit from it, telling us the world is going to end.
Don't forget the politicians and bureaucrats chomping at the bit to gain power or tax revenues from it, telling us the world is going to end.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/16 14:47:31


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

The reason why we have science is to be able to examine evidence objectively in order to disabuse ourselves of false ideas generated by the vapid blandishments of one or another self-interested pressure group.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Everyone on the planet is self interested and use all data accordingly. People who aren't are usually referred to in religious terms. Usually very few of them at any one time.

Science used in argument is just statistics.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Minnesota

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Some folks with nothing to profit from it telling us the world may be in trouble.
Not all profit is in dollars.

Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Fraz, could I see some specifics about who would profit from doomsaying? And then maybe some documentation connecting them in any way to the climate researchers?

Gods know those guys aren't making billions. But the guys doing the anti-climate change research do seem to wind up being funded by petroleum companies quite often.

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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Mannahnin wrote:Fraz, could I see some specifics about who would profit from doomsaying? And then maybe some documentation connecting them in any way to the climate researchers?

Gods know those guys aren't making billions. But the guys doing the anti-climate change research do seem to wind up being funded by petroleum companies quite often.


You mean other than Al Gore, GE and a host of other companies? Check out how much he's made so far...

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Where is the money trail between him and the researchers though? They’re the guys doing the gritty work, finding the evidence. They’re not getting as profit from it, nor are they going to be appointed our Overlords.

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More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Grant money. Besides if it were just scientists it wouldn't be an issue. Scientists warn us about everything under the table.

Scientists tell us GM crops areperfectly safe, but does anyone listen?

Scientists tell us vaccines are perfectly safe, but there continues to be a firestorm about it, such that the Swine flu vaccine was delayed to put it into single batches because on nonscientific concerns about a carrier chemical.

Scientists tell us reactors are perfectly safe.

The issue is being pushed by parties that are not scientiests. It has become a matter of faith (and profit).

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Hangin' with Gork & Mork






I faked a climate change once, if you know what I mean.

I hope someone does because I sure don't.

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Hang on, you're talking about scientists being ignored due to nonscientific factors. Okay, so let's look at the specific examples you raise.

I agree that scientists should not be ignored, nor the data manipulated to support a wrong conclusion.

GM crops- I need to do more reading. I've seen evidence both ways. And there's definitely a major corporate profit motive to call them safe.


Vaccines- I agree that the these are documented to be safe, as a rule. So they should be widely deployed, and their use should not be obstructed or delayed.

Nuclear reactors- I agree that the scientific data generally supports that these are safe, and that irrational prejudices have restricted them excessively.

Climate Change- Again, 97%+ of climate scientists agree that it is happening, that we are contributing to it, and that it has potentially terrible consequences, including the flooding and loss of many coastal cities.

I agree that we should not allow anyone to sway or distort the truth and the evidence, and that non-scientists frequently do so. However, if a non-scientist is supporting and propagating the conclusion that the scientists have come to, how is that bad? SOMEONE will find a way to profit either way we go- whether it's green tech companies if we agree the threat is real, or the good ol' oil companies if we say it's BS and keep up our current rate of fossil fuel consumption. Right now the climate researchers, who are certainly not getting rich off it, and very likely would get much fatter grants from petroleum companies to find the opposite, are finding data supporting a threat.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/16 19:08:00


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DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
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The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
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Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Raggie baby, I'm just saying there are strong financial and nonfinancial interests on both sides of the debate.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Actually scientists don't tell us GM crops are perfectly safe.

http://www.badscience.net/2009/12/criticising-the-gm-industry/

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

Frazzled wrote:Raggie baby, I'm just saying there are strong financial and nonfinancial interests on both sides of the debate.


Did you just call Mannahnin Raggedy Anne?


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

We’ve never met in person, so he’s never seen my face as I read it. I’m sure he means it in a friendly way, and so I take it that way.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

All we moderators hate each other intensely, but we hate users even more and that keeps us tight.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Frazzled wrote:Raggie baby, I'm just saying there are strong financial and nonfinancial interests on both sides of the debate.


Sure. Agreed. But that doesn’t mean both sides are equally correct.

It’s like that BS Intelligent Design argument- “teach the controversy”. They manufacture a controversy/debate, then argue that their position has weight and must be respected because there is this made-up controversy. Same with the cigarette companies and lung cancer. Same with the petroleum industry and climate change.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/12/16 19:35:42


Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Kilkrazy wrote:All we moderators hate each other intensely, but we hate users even more and that keeps us tight.

Exactly.

Raggie-short for Ragnar.
Who's Raggedy Anne by the way?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/16 19:58:13


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

Raggedy Anne and Andy were dolls that were pretty popular for a long time. I just thought it was funny when you said "Raggie, Baby..." .



Apparently Raggie is also slang for smelly homeless looking person.

Obviously that is not what you meant, but I don't know exactly what the interpretation that you were using was.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/16 19:57:17



 
   
 
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