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hey guys, i recently finished putting together my vindicator and was wondering what the general opinion is on them? two of my buddies say that their only worth it in pairs or more, and i have to agree, as one of my pals has one and it either dies before it can get a shot off or scatters horribly. Are they only worth it in lash lists? thanx people

Pairs are often better as it maximizes your chances of getting that 'perfect shot' off.
Now, templates are nice in lash lists...but it depends on how extensively you rely on Lash and the rest of the list.

Vindi's can do well, but you'll need armor/target saturation for them to do their thing.

In addition you need to baby their wide side armor.

No doubt their have their pros and cons...generally it ends up as a personal taste choice.
I would prefer oblits just to get multiple templates instead of just one big one.

bombardments bombardments and bombardments.


The more, the better.

Whirlwind + vindicator + Orby is really destructive.

I agree with Sanctjud on Oblits.

However, taking multiple Vindi's seems pretty bleh. That 2nd Heavy Support slot could be spent on LR's or Oblits.

However, it falls down to personal preference really.

They could be pretty devastating in Lash lists, it depends.

Problem is that they'll probably get melta'd easily (Seeing as they have a 24-36-ish range.)

@Captain Solon:

This is about CHAOS space marines, you know, the C in front of the CSM. So no Whirlwinds and no Orbital Bombardments if you are meaning the one from the Chapter Master, etc.

Plus, Whirlwinds are pretty poor and good luck hitting much with Orbital Bombardments...

Reading battle reports here and watching games at the FLGS, I have noticed people use them as a personal preference and usually in pairs.

They seem to have good synergy with quite a few CSM units, though. That 24" range is kinda tricky for keeping it alive, but CSM has some nice short-range threats that can counter as well.

I painted up my Obliterators first to try them out before I use the Vindicator. So far I haven't found a reason to give up even one Heavy slot for it.

- Blackbone

Well, I go for 6 oblits in 2 hvy slot.
The last one is generally reserved for a defiler.

I don't take Vindi's because it's just a Spiky Smurf Vindi...not something 'unique' to chaos.

odorofdeath wrote:hey guys, i recently finished putting together my vindicator and was wondering what the general opinion is on them? two of my buddies say that their only worth it in pairs or more, and i have to agree, as one of my pals has one and it either dies before it can get a shot off or scatters horribly. Are they only worth it in lash lists? thanx people

Only worth it in Lash lists? = No
Work better in pairs? = Yes

Having multiple sources of ordnance helps with the fickle dice gods and it increases the percieved threat of the targets. Now they have to kill both Vindicators before they can fire, not just 1.

Also for Chaos, I consider D. Possession a mandatory upgrade. Sure it makes it more expensive but the ability to not be stunned/shaken is awesome.

Dpossession also makes it less 'Spiky SMurf' tank.
Though, another way of looking about taking pairs is the Lanchester's Square Law, where doubling up makes for four times the goodness.

Not to mention you should always add a Havoc Launcher: it'll give your Vindicator something to fire if you have targets outside of 24", or your Demolisher Cannon gets knocked out.

But if you are outside of 24" and shooting the Havoc, it means you are not moving up with Rhinos' and not going 12" to get a better shot next turn or to get to better cover.

In addition, after the demo cannon is gone, a moving Pred. Chassis going 12" a turn has its own uses... more than 'just a havoc launcher'.

Though is an option for those that want more dakka, I find it wastful IMO.

Always DP, ALWAYS. They save your life in a Rhino rush list as you get some good AV13 shielding for your Rhinos the first turn or 2. I say take 2 or 3 or don't bother.

Well, vindi's do offer Armor Saturation, but 'shielding' isn't a description I would use for it.

From what I've seen, they are usually shoulder to shoulder as opposed to front and back.

Unless you make a list based around the vindis, the other options are going to be better in my opinion.

Sanctjud:

Indeed. You wouldn't want your Vindicator to be rendered useless by dint of an Immobilized result early in the game. Then it would actually be wasted.

Paying 15 points for a "what if" situation, especially in the case of a small insignificant blast template, is really not worth it at all. DP on the other hand helps 67% of the time on glances and 33% of the time on pens.

Then you have a 24" no go area. The opponent will either avoid it, or continue shooting it.
It's still doing its job.

Immobilized and Weapon destroyed, sure...but it's still alive, not yet a kill point and prob. still contesting something if I've deployed correctly.

Lean and mean is what I generally go for.
Compromise: sure, get it, but if you are hurting for points, it's the first thing I would drop.

I love my Vindicators. I always give them a havoc launcher and daemonic possession so that they ignore shaken/stunned damage and I use them to defend objectives and break up mech advances. I've had a single vindicator kill two rhinos, a land raider and most of a terminator squad in a single battle. The other one got immobilized and still killed a scout squad and drove off an assault squad. I usually take three, and move one of them forward so that the enemy will feel good about themselves for knocking it out, so they advance into the range of the other two. Works every time.

Night Lords:

I never said that you should take a Havoc Launcher instead of Daemonic Possession. You should always take Daemonic Possession. You should also take a Havoc Launcher if you're concerned about:

When infantry targets are 24"+ away
When the Vindicators' Demolisher Cannon is destroyed
When the Vindicator is Immobilized

Remember it's S5 and Twin-linked. It's really not that insignificant, particularly where stuff like Land Speeders, Vipers, Sentinels, and similar is available. Particularly Land Speeders.

Nurglitch wrote:Night Lords:

I never said that you should take a Havoc Launcher instead of Daemonic Possession. You should always take Daemonic Possession. You should also take a Havoc Launcher if you're concerned about:

When infantry targets are 24"+ away
When the Vindicators' Demolisher Cannon is destroyed
When the Vindicator is Immobilized

Remember it's S5 and Twin-linked. It's really not that insignificant, particularly where stuff like Land Speeders, Vipers, Sentinels, and similar is available. Particularly Land Speeders.

I never said you said that. However, now the vindicator is up to what? 160 points? That's a lot of points for what is essentially an AV13 front armour rhino for the first 2-3 turns.

If the vindi gets immoblized, it gets immoblized (very low odds of this happening, period). A S5 template isnt going to do anything. You may feel better that your have one 160 point S5 shot instead of a 145 point piece of terrain, but it really is insignificant. Oh, and the odds of blowing up a viper/speeder/etc. is just slightly better than a single lascannon destroying a land raider. Yea...not going to happen.

Sanctjud wrote:Well, vindi's do offer Armor Saturation, but 'shielding' isn't a description I would use for it.

From what I've seen, they are usually shoulder to shoulder as opposed to front and back.

In a Rhino Rush list, it becomes an improvised role pretty quickly. It has saved my arse on a couple of occasions when my opponent has seized the initiative.

Night Lords:

No, you implied it. But you miss the point: the Havoc Launcher means that you can engage the enemy in the first 2-3 turns of the game. 48" range is good.

Remember that it's not only if the Vindicator gets immoblized, but if it gets Imobilized or Weapon Destroyed, 2/6 or 1/3 is significant when it comes to disabling an entire Heavy Support option.

Regarding the odds of harming a Land Speeder or similar tank-hunting fast mover, yeah, they're not that great, but considerably better than zero. Just because something is unlikely to happen does not mean it's not going to happen.

The Havoc Launcher acts considerable flexibility, survivability, and synergy to what is otherwise a one-dimensional glass hammer. It adds range to its offensive capabilities, toughness to its damage results (4 Damage results = Destroyed (wrecked) rather than 3), and gives it an opportunity to plink transports and tank-hunting light vehicles.

If you're getting a Vindicator, then what that upgrade adds in value to your army far exceeds the cost of another Chaos Space Marine.

CSM lists tend to have so many rhino chassis that the havoc launcher can go "somewhere else" easily and you tend to run out of points if you're putting it on everything. I'd rather stick the Havocs on my 4-5 rhinos and leave the 2-3 Vindies naked. They're already high priority fire magnets, no sense to make them more expensive (barring DP, for previously stated reasons).

I also don't like taking 'what if' upgrades; the points for the Havoc is wasted if the Vindicator isn't immobilized/weapon destroyed. Note that this includes Shaken/Stunned/Destroyed/Explodes as well as anything that would not affect it at all.

I've found that they don't go too well on other Rhino-Chassis vehicles except Predators. On actual Rhinos the Rhino is either moving too fast, or is going to get close enough to merit a Combi-Weapon of some sort as its secondary weapon.

Nurglitch wrote:Night Lords:

A) No, you implied it. But you miss the point: the Havoc Launcher means that you can engage the enemy in the first 2-3 turns of the game. 48" range is good.

B) Remember that it's not only if the Vindicator gets immoblized, but if it gets Imobilized or Weapon Destroyed, 2/6 or 1/3 is significant when it comes to disabling an entire Heavy Support option.

C) Regarding the odds of harming a Land Speeder or similar tank-hunting fast mover, yeah, they're not that great, but considerably better than zero. Just because something is unlikely to happen does not mean it's not going to happen.

D) The Havoc Launcher acts considerable flexibility, survivability, and synergy to what is otherwise a one-dimensional glass hammer. It adds range to its offensive capabilities, toughness to its damage results (4 Damage results = Destroyed (wrecked) rather than 3), and gives it an opportunity to plink transports and tank-hunting light vehicles.

E) If you're getting a Vindicator, then what that upgrade adds in value to your army far exceeds the cost of another Chaos Space Marine.

- You should be moving forward the first two turns. Therefore it is pointless.

- If it gets immobilized it is going to be a useless piece of terrain regardless if it has a HL or not. At this point youve lost your vindi, which is why the vindi is such a big risk because a a 3,4,5 or 6 essentially destroys it.

-A ~7% chance is a waste of time. This is after the already low odds of it getting Immobilized. (Weapon Destroyed should have you ramming and contesting objectives, not shooting a S5 template).

- It doesnt add any flexibility because its not going to be used nor will it kill anything in the rare case it is. Survivability doesnt matter if youve lost your big gun, and there is no synergy at all in an upgrade that contradicts the purpose of the vehicle (moving forward and shooting). It will never tank hunt vehicles.

- One more CSM is far better. Regardless, you should be taking two or three vindis so that quickly turns into 30-45 points. Thats another terminator, rhino, champion with fist, etc. that are all far more useful. 15 points should never be thrown away like this. I have to agree with clams and say "what if" upgrades are bad. I dont even take dozer blades for 5 points each which have far better odds of getting immobilized than a vindi (which, by the way, on 3 rhinos is a much better option than one havoc launcher).

Night Lords:

Why would you necessarily be moving forward in the first two turns?

If the Vindicator gets immobilized then its range will be shortened and any further immobilization hits will take out its Demolisher Cannon. You need the Havoc Launcher precisely because it gives the Vindicator a way of reaching 24"+ beyond where-ever it gets immobilized. That's the point, it hedges against the Vindicator being reduced to a useless bunker if immobilized.

A ~7% of knocking out a Land Speeder is never a waste of time, particularly if that Land Speeder is carrying a Multi-Melta.

It will be used because inevitably your Vindicator will be immobilized or have its Demolisher Cannon destroyed, or you will face a target outside of 24". Ramming is a weapon limited to 12", and impossible if the Vindicator is immobilized.

I'll point out that all upgrades are "What If" upgrades. The Daemonic Possession isn't always used, since vehicles can be destroyed in one hit, or have weapons destroyed, or be immobilized without it providing one lick of difference, but you should always take it because it's so useful in the situations where it could be used.

The utility of a Havoc Launcher is more situational than that of the Daemonic Possession, and requires more integration with your strategy and army list (your strategy of everything moving forward for two turns, for example, doesn't work for it), but it should hardly be dismissed because it doesn't have the over-whelming utility of Daemonic Possession.

If you already have Rhinos for all of your units, and you don't have any units of Terminators, and you have Champions for all your units, then you should definitely use a Havoc Launcher. In other words, if you have the points available after the army design part of your strategy is done, then it's a no-brainer. If you don't have the points available after army design, then it's likewise a no-brainer that you shouldn't break your army simply to fit a Havoc Launcher on your Vindicator. If, at the army design phase you find that a Havoc Launcher enhances the flexibility, redundancy, or synergy of your army, then you need to weigh it against whatever else you have available.

Because that's what Warhammer is, particularly in the army design phase, a game of trade-offs. If you're just going to go with what's likely and what's efficient, then you're going to lose out to what's actually possible and what's effective.

Consider it like thise: 18 Ork Shoota Boyz are going to have 36 shots each turn, compared to 9 Tactical Space Marines having 18. Both are likely, if you're using ideal dice, to hit 12 times. If we assume, counter-factually, that everything else is equal, the 18 Shoota Boyz will actually be more effective at shooting because they will not only hit with 12 on average, but they can hit with 36 at best!

Sure, your Havoc Launcher may be used twice a game, and only have a ~7 theoretical chance of disabling (stunning, shaking, immobilizing, weapon destroying, or destroying) a Land Speeder, but if that Land Speeder is dead then it can't nip inside the Vindicator's 24" death-zone and kill it with a Multi-Melta, and thereby depriving you of two more Demolisher Cannon shots. So of course your Vindicator isn't going to go hunting tank-hunters, but it is going to have some better defense against them, both actively to disable them first, or passively to better resist being disabled.

This is a highly artificial exampe, for sure, but what it demonstrates isn't that "Hey, one time a Havoc Launcher worked for me so you should always take it!" is true, it demonstrates that, "Hey, you're unlikely to do anything with that Havoc Launcher so you should never take it" is likewise stupid. It's the "always/never" parts of those statements that are stupid, because like other stupid terms ("obvious", and "clearly", etc), they gloss over the fine details that separate the skilled players from the merely proficient.

More to the point it makes for much better discussion in this, a discussion forum. Either you discuss the conditions under which taking something is useful, and how it might be useful, and weigh it against other options and their conditions, or you're misleading people about how the game actually works by substituting your opinion for data. A Tactics forum is no place for sweeping over-generalizations.

Nurglitch wrote:Night Lords:

Why would you necessarily be moving forward in the first two turns?

Not only the obvious reason of having a 24" threat range with the Demo cannon, but for the more significant advantage of keeping your sides shielded by your rhino wall -- which should absolutely be moving forward for the first two turns.

Two turns may be a stretch. One turn of 12" movement is likely sufficient to get up close and personal, but the obvious implications are that you're staying with your main assault, you're using your army in a synergistic way, and you're not firing anything but the big gun once it gets into range.

If the Vindicator gets immobilized then its range will be shortened and any further immobilization hits will take out its Demolisher Cannon. You need the Havoc Launcher precisely because it gives the Vindicator a way of reaching 24"+ beyond where-ever it gets immobilized. That's the point, it hedges against the Vindicator being reduced to a useless bunker if immobilized.

If your Vindicator is taking that many consecutive hits, then you've likely got an opponent pointing medium-heavy weaponry at side armor or a melta/assault squad pinging it and odds are just as likely that it's been destroyed outright.

It is not an overgeneralization in the slightest. Havoc launchers are bad. Anyone who takes a 7% chance at something needs to rethink their playstyle and list. Sure, these are not facts, but instead heavily evidence based opinions. This is a tactics forum. That doesnt mean we have to offer bad advice just for the sake of having a discussion.

Warhammer is a game of odds and you are not playing to those odds. The only real skill in list building is understanding the concept of opportunity cost. Taking a havoc launcher on a vindi is a bad analysis of opportunity cost. Buying one thing with a 10% chance of use instead of something like a marine who is used in 95% of games is poor decision making. What about upping a havoc to a lascannon from an autocannon for those 15 points? Those increase your odds of something youll be using every turn. If youre going to throw away points, atleast throw it away into something that helps you.

There is no way a havoc launcher on a vindicator is ever the best way to spend 15 points. There are a lot of other bad options that are better than a havoc launcher on a vindi that you shouldnt have taken either. If you are left with a havoc launcher for a vindi as an only option, you need to do some serious list trimming.

Night Lords wrote:-A ~7% chance is a waste of time. This is after the already low odds of it getting Immobilized. (Weapon Destroyed should have you ramming and contesting objectives, not shooting a S5 template).

- It doesnt add any flexibility because its not going to be used nor will it kill anything in the rare case it is.

Saying that the Havoc Launcher is unlikely to be used and therefore will not kill anything is the textbook definition of over-generalization. You go from the warrant that it is unlikely to kill anything, which is true, to the conclusion that it will not kill anything, which is false.

Moreover you've misrepresented my point that, among other things, the Havoc Launcher merely needs to disable a light vehicle rather than kill it, cause stunned, shaken, immobilized, or weapon destroyed results in addition to destroyed, to be a useful secondary weapon. The Havoc Launcher still increases the Vindicator's range, makes it more survivable against damage, and gives it tactical flexibility. You've likewise completely missed my point about the conditionality of taking a Havoc Launcher: You take it after you've filled out your infantry squads, taken the heavy weapons you should take, and have the requisite points left over - saying that those points could have upgraded a heavy weapon or could have been used to purchase another Chaos Space Marine is beside the point.

But hey I think we've covered everything and the arguments speak for themselves.