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How about this:

Aurora squad.
composition 4 tactical marines, 1 sergeant.
add up to 5 extra models - - - - - 16 pts per model.

The squad may take up to 4 of the following weapons:
flamer
Meltagun
Plasma rifle
Up to four members may exchange their bolt pistols for plasma pistols

thoughts?

Also, SM should be able to get grenade launchers.

What is the reasoning behind this?
Are you looking for a dedicated anti horde or anti tank/MEQ squad? maybe add in extra points cost on top and use as a devestator squad upgrade?

Also, SM get Grenade launchers? Then shouldn't IG get plasma cannon and Multi melta heavy weapon options? SM have plenty of kit options as they are.

naaah, The idea is to have an specialist group.

I don't need devastators.

I want many many special weapons that can move more effectively.

Overpowered, there is a reason that Tac squads can't take more than 2 specialist weapons. Being able to take 4 plasma guns AND 4 plasma pistols would make a unit the best anti-MEQ unit in the game (before to add in a Combi-plasma for the Sarge) and make Tau pointless (and very dead). That would be 15 S7 AP2 shots in 1 turn at BS4 the unit could throw out!!! Unless you made those spec weapons very expensive. Something like this:

Aurora squad.
composition 4 tactical marines, 1 sergeant.
add up to 5 extra models - - - - - 16 pts per model.

Up to 4 memebers o fthe squad may exchange their bolters for:
a flamer +10 points each
a Meltagun +15 Points each
a Plasma rifle +20 Points each

Up to four members may exchange their bolt pistols for plasma pistols +15 each

That seems about right.

SoIon I should have been more clear

As a house rule just give Devestators some additional weapons upgrades to include:
Flamers
meltas
Plasmagun

Wouldn't be to op this way and stlill keeps the ethos of the SM. Maybe you could add an additional special weapon for weapon price + 10pts for a ten man unit

Or use standard Tacs with an 'aurora' rule ' meaning you can take extra special/assault weapons.
4 tacs with Sarg
may take up to 2 special weapons from the following
Flamer
Plasmagun
Meltagun
For every 2 tac marines added you can take a further special weapon up to max of ten marines/4 special weapons.

May take
razorback
Rhino
Droppod

10 man aurora squads may not form combat squads.

Figure out some points costs and there you have your assault unit. Fluffy and not too OP or unbalanced.


Fling It Now got thre ahead of me and may make more sense...i ramble a bit.

Flamer, melta, and Plasma guns for Devastators? No, they would not be called Devastators but called Havocs .

There is a reason GW didn't give it to them. IMO that's a silly house rule.
If you want multiple special weapons in a squad, run with Space Wolves or Chaos Space Marines. Vanilla Marines function differently.

I thought of havocs when i wrote it Was using Devs as a choice as that is what sprung to mind

Silly or not its an idea if you didn't want to use themed SM and had opponents consent, wouldn't want to play against it or with it myself but hey its an idea.

I don't see anything wrong balance wise internally, but it certainly steps on what makes SM different from CSM.

So I'd be willing to play against it/with it, but I do think it makes the game more boring and generic.

Jack

Wow... make that a 10 man, put the 5 special weapons (combi for the sarge, of course) into a drop pod, but the 4 plasma pistols in with the other 5, shove that group into a LC/LC+PG razorback, and laugh as you walk your muppet mower across all comers... transports, tanks, bodies.... got a little something for everyone there.

SM do get a few Grenade Launchers. Chapter Master, Captains and Honor Guard can take Auxiliary Grenade Launchers.

This is essentially a Havoc squad. Loyalist SM don't have them due to codex astartes/diversity from CSM.

-sigh.-

This has turned from "Aurora squads" to Devastator squads with privaleges.

Captain Solon wrote:-sigh.-

This has turned from "Aurora squads" to Devastator squads with privaleges.

Just trying to get a vaguely workable option.

Think the concenus is that as a stand alone its way OP, either way you look it works like a havoc squad.

Captain Solon wrote:-sigh.-

This has turned from "Aurora squads" to Devastator squads with privaleges.

I'm sorry, but that's what you had in the first place: A squad that does the "Special weapon" job that chaos Havocs can do.

The only other option might be to replace the Sternguard's heavy weapon options with special weapons...I know that would make for a more interesting squad to me in any case.

Jack

The only other option might be to replace the Sternguard's heavy weapon options with special weapons...I know that would make for a more interesting squad to me in any case.

They can already do this with Combi weapons and still retain the bonus of their special ammo. I really don't see why you'd want this? If you want to keep them moving just give them Heavy Flamers.

I've never been a huge fan of one shot weapons, and I think it would fit with their role better then the heavies do (plus it strikes me as odd they can come up cheaper the devastators with two heavies, although thats more about devestators being rather overpriced).

Jack

Somebody's been watching too much Harry Potter.

You mean Harry Pothead and the Stoned Sorcerer...

Anyway, Deves are 'overpriced' due to the higher cap in hvy weapons...yes, one pays indirectly for that privledge.

The Corpse-Emperor is holding you back. Take the final step and break with the restrictions of the Codex Astartes, embrace the special weapon: The power of Chaos compels you!

Or Chaos Space Wolves! Take your pick.

I like your idea Captain Solomon personally I agree its a bit OP considering standard tactical marine positions and pricing.

I based this off standard tactical squads like you but added a bit of flair which seems to be your primary goal. Contrary to people's statements i think a heavy heat squad would make sense in some vanilla variants like Salamanders for instance.

Aurora Squad -
composition 4 Aurora Marines, 1 Aurora Sergeant.
add up to 5 extra models - - - - - 20 pts per model.

1 out of every 2 marines may exchange their Bolters for...
Combi-flamer, Combi-Melta, Combi-Plasma
Sergeant may take Auxillary Grenade Launcher.

I opted to suggest Combi-weapons over full on flame/melta/plasmas because it preserves more of the versatility of tactical squads while giving them a shot at anything moving on the board. I also agree about the grenade launchers being a standard on modern marines i find it a horrible omission, i'd really rather see SMs than IG with grenade launchers for some reason barely trained soldiers with explosives doesn't sit right with me.

Oh and for everyone who's yelling the inclusion of more specials in army lists will make the game more generic really need to realize the human armies SHOULD be more similar.

human armies SHOULD be more similar.

Wait wut?
Please expand, my gut says to respond to that quote, but I'd like more information...

dynath wrote:I like your idea Captain Solomon personally I agree its a bit OP considering standard tactical marine positions and pricing.

I based this off standard tactical squads like you but added a bit of flair which seems to be your primary goal. Contrary to people's statements i think a heavy heat squad would make sense in some vanilla variants like Salamanders for instance.

Because Sallys need MORE power...

Aurora Squad -
composition 4 Aurora Marines, 1 Aurora Sergeant.
add up to 5 extra models - - - - - 20 pts per model.

1 out of every 2 marines may exchange their Bolters for...
Combi-flamer, Combi-Melta, Combi-Plasma
Sergeant may take Auxillary Grenade Launcher.

I opted to suggest Combi-weapons over full on flame/melta/plasmas because it preserves more of the versatility of tactical squads while giving them a shot at anything moving on the board. I also agree about the grenade launchers being a standard on modern marines i find it a horrible omission, i'd really rather see SMs than IG with grenade launchers for some reason barely trained soldiers with explosives doesn't sit right with me.

IG are NOT barely trained . The IG are just as well, if not far better (in the case of Cadia etc), trained than modern armies. People like you seem to forget that the 33331317 statline is the game average. A normal human would probably be 22321215.
Also, you dont like IG with expolsives, but dont mind them having heat rays and magnetic containment units?

Oh and for everyone who's yelling the inclusion of more specials in army lists will make the game more generic really need to realize the human armies SHOULD be more similar.

Why??

Back on topic, I would say whats wrong with sternguard?
If you have to have them:

Aurora Tactical Squad - 100
4 Tactical Marines and 1 Sergeant
Bolt Gun, Bolt Pistol, Frag + Krak Grenades

Add up to 5 more Tactical Marines for 18p each.
Up to 4 Tactical Marines may exchange their Bolt Gun or Bolt Pistol for:
Flamer - 8
0-1 Heavy Flamer - 20
Melta Gun - 15
Plasma Gun - 20
Plasma Pistol - 12
Combi Flamer - 6
Combi Melta - 10
Combi Plasma - 10
Combi Grenade Laucher - 5

The whole squad may take Melta Bombs for 5p per model and/or Defensive Grenades for 2p per model
Sergeant options as Tactical Squad Sergeant
Transport as Tactical Squad

Rules:
ATSKNF
Combat Tactics
Weapon Specalists: If no transport is bought, the unit has the Scout USR. However, they may not use it to Outflank. Additonaly, this unit does not have the Combat Squads special rule.
None Codex Deployment: This unit is not written in the holy Index, and hence few chapters, in the direst of need, will field such a squad. For every 2 Tactical Squads in an army, 0-1 Aurora Tactical Squad may be taken.

@ Sanctjud: Fluff wise i would prefer if the great and oppressive imperium of humanity was more homogeneous, even at our most diverse humans find basically the same ways to kill eachother. there are a good dozen human armies now and they keep inbreeding to produce more. for all the incredible back story for the other races they can't get two armies if they tried. I'd like to see either all races treated like humans or humans treated like all races, IE one codex per race or 5 to 6 codex's per race.

Don't get me wrong i play Blood Angels so i'm as human as a lot of people but I'd rather see some expansion of other more original ideas than another SM Chapter. I think some of the armies should be paired down from full chapters to regiments like the Legion of the Damned where you can add them as a unit in an human army.

And yes I'm one of the few people who would say i'd be willing to give up my full codex to make things the way I think they'd be better. Attach Death Company, the old Veteran Assault Squads, Baal Preditors, and Furioso Dreads as options in a Vanilla army and i'd still be happy. And with that type of army we could still build specific chapters using a set of generic choices as a base and using a Force Organization change and unique characters to make them different from each other without the need for a separate codex.

@ Black Antelope

Maybe Salamanders do need more firepower, in which case what Captain was proposing makes perfect sense for them and people were arguing just to argue. I honestly do that to much.

Actually i honestly never thought about IG with heat rays or magnetic containment units, i suppose its hypocritical to say a guy can blow themselves up with an M40 grenade but can't blow themselves up with a microwave gun. But then as I've always understood it the IG is the rough equivalent of the National Guard not the standard army, if 3s is the average in the game then I'll admit maybe i'm wrong on the barely trained bit, but then being an average guy with limited athletic skills I wouldn't give ME a grenade launcher either. I still maintain though that SMs without grenade launchers is an omission in my opinion.

I like the revised Aurora Squad, I'd expect to pay a bit more to field them but the weapon costs raise that price a lot. I'm not sure of the Scouts special rule, energy weapons don't really seem like a scout tool.

Space Marines are not human though...not any more anyway.
Each chapter can and will differ wildly.
Each is from a different planet, different customs, each has a different pool of geneseed with the affinity toward that particular chapter of SM's.

Would be wierd to have the Ultrasmurfs and Sallies grow fangs if the Space Puppies were the basis of human kind....or the bland Marine as it looks like you are proposing. Actually it's something akin to what GW is already doing....dumbing down the codicies..not everyone has open arms to this, there is a problem there.

As for salllies.... they are already better than the average SM list......making something better that's already good is not constuctive IMO...but have fun while you are at it.

the genetic engineering aspect of their back stories doesn't change the fact they are human in that they fight for and represent the Imperium of Man. the physical differences between human and space marine are extreme but those between space marine are minor. If the half dozen Craftworlds of the Eldar have customs so similar they don't deserve their own codex then the same should go for Space Marines. For that matter Ork barbarians should show significant differences, one barbarian tribe isn't another barbarian tribe after all. There were 500 native american tribes in the US before the colonies were founded each different and distinct somehow but when it really boils down to it they all had more in common than not (before anyone starts I'm Cayuga). Space Wolves are viking fan boys with fangs occasionally riding wolves, Ultra Marines are stompy jackbooted soldier boys, Blood Angels are hallucinating homicidal cannibals. each SM army has 2 or 3 concepts that make them what they are, and inevitably they are represented in game by nothing more than a handful of special rules, a smattering of unique units, and a variant of the force organization chart. Everything that is left after that is found in every SM army, rhinos, tactical squads, assault squads, chapter masters, bike marines, scouts, etc. Thats why the old codex's referenced the index astartes rather than reprint those details. You can preserve the same things by porting the unique units over as options in a standard army and including alternative FOCs and army special rules to make custom chapters. 1 book, 1 human race, you sell just as many models which is what GW cares about. thats what the IG do too with a single IG codex including multiple planetary forces at once. I just don't think its fair to players and think it definitely stifles creativity when 80% of your army options are human.

BUT this is about Aurora Squads.

I liked the last build and think its good enough to be fielded. I'd test it as an Elites choice and see how it does.

dynath wrote:
@ Black Antelope

Maybe Salamanders do need more firepower, in which case what Captain was proposing makes perfect sense for them and people were arguing just to argue. I honestly do that to much.

I was making the point that they are one of the most powerful builds in C:SM, and really dont need any more buffing. If we want to improve a unit, take one that is rarely used. (Although, in that respect, C:SM is a excellent book - there is nothing in it that really sucks, with the exception of Vangaurd and Tech Marines [an interesting case, as I belive GW has never really given Tech Marines/Priests a decent set of rules])

Actually i honestly never thought about IG with heat rays or magnetic containment units, i suppose its hypocritical to say a guy can blow themselves up with an M40 grenade but can't blow themselves up with a microwave gun. But then as I've always understood it the IG is the rough equivalent of the National Guard not the standard army, if 3s is the average in the game then I'll admit maybe i'm wrong on the barely trained bit, but then being an average guy with limited athletic skills I wouldn't give ME a grenade launcher either. I still maintain though that SMs without grenade launchers is an omission in my opinion.

The 33331317 stat line is much more obvious in WHFB (the father to WH40Ks son).

The NG/TA equivelent is the PDF. The IG are the main army of Imperium. Looks at the Cadians. Trained from birth, bred over 10,000 years for phsyical fitness etc. And they only rate the "3" statline.

I like the revised Aurora Squad, I'd expect to pay a bit more to field them but the weapon costs raise that price a lot. I'm not sure of the Scouts special rule, energy weapons don't really seem like a scout tool.

I put it in not because they should act as scouts, but to stimulate the rapid redeployment of such a specilist unit to counter percived threats.

I never really worry about whether a unit needs improvement or not when I consider changes. My main thought is actually the functionality of the unit and its redesign, true units which require improvement are generally a priority but I figure if the idea has merit I won't toss it out just because something similar has been done or because what I have now works ok. I like custom units and figure that so long as the person pays for everything they are getting its just fine to me. Hence why i sort of ignore the whole question of fluff, i mean its all fiction and none of this is tournament legal anyway so if he thinks is SM army would deploy a Quad Plasma-Gun squad I don't see why not. If priced reasonably and integrated properly its not a big deal, if anything it can be a harm you fill a role in the army with something that isn't official and you'll have a harder time playing legal at tournaments but not all of us do tournaments.

I must admit that I've never played warhammer fantasy so the 33331317 average is news to me since I rarely see that kind of statline in 40k. I suppose there are fewer unmodified units in 40k everyone has power armor or cybernetics to add an S and cross the Ts. I've always assumed that the MEQ statline was average since most armies have a varient of it rather than the Fantasy one.

the US National Guard is deployed during wars over seas too not just the regular army. I suppose this is represented in codex IG as the conscript squads but whatever. I don't play IG most of what I know of them has been read in the novels they appear in and for some reason I remember a lot of them being differant than 10,000 years of physical training. Frankly, I'm gonna stand by my summary judgment until I can borrow a freinds IG codex, the army seemed to be built on expendable troops not skill which makes me still feel that my point about inexperience is somewhat valid even if more than a bit of a sweeping judgement.


I suppose I can see the Scouts USR when you put it that way. But if I was going mobility i'd drop them in a Rhino or Razorback. The extra cost is worth the defense to me.

They are both very well trained and expendable. Training, even very intensive training, is a hell of a lot easier to come by than power armor and genetic modification. Guardsmen would be largely useless if not trained very well, they're up against too dangerous of enemies to do anything without a huge amount of discipline and practice, and transportation across star systems is a significant investment (not worth putting into troops trained to PDF standards or the like, except in emergencies where no better suited troops are available). While they would be inexperienced when compared to enemies who are centuries old they're not going to have any more problems with the use of their (non-plasma) weapons any more than a modern army (with some exceptions, such as regiments raised from feral worlds).

The Cadians are raised from young childhood to be soldiers, Catachans fight from young childhood against the creatures that live in their jungles, Hive Ganger regiments are raised from the equivalent of modern drug cartels and such. They're very dangerous by modern standards, they just have trouble appearing that way when contrasted with the aliens, daemons, and supersoldiers that they exist alongside.