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This is kind of frustrating, I was really trying to help with the Aurora Squads idea not pick a fight. But a lot of imperial guard fans keep popping in to tell me how dangerous they are compared to average people. But there are no average people in 40k just people with higher average statlines and voracious expendables with extremely low statlines. Relating them to drug cartels and jungle survivalists really doesn't help because I wouldn't trust those people with grenade launchers either which was my original joke. They are dangerous in NUMBERS not stats and skills and thats fine but again doesn't negate my point or its back handed attempt at humor. I'm tired of defending myself and appologizing for stating my perceptions of an army in defense of a barely related point someone else made.

I'm dangerously close to feeling like i'm flaming people when I say my perceptions/oppinions here but as I said I'll stick to my oppinion until I can reread the codex IG because frankly most of what you guys are saying is not how I interpreted what was said about them. Saying all Cadian citizens serve in the defense forces is not saying they are bread to be IG. Saying Catachans spend their lives fighting monsters on their home world is likewise not saying they are bred to gun down the enemies of the imperium. I'm tired of trying to defed this though as it was never even my intent to discuss this in the first place.

I especially feel bad for Captain whose thread seems to have been mostly highjacked by my attempts to articulate myself.

To return to my original point, the appearance of a weapon and/or a personel type in one army should not be precluded by a similar presence in another army, attempts to justify such preclusion by either fluff or game balance is simply attempts to adherence to game workshops vision and if that was what we were worried about then there would never be a reason to make custom units. If we are accepting we can depart from the core vision of GW we must also except that if you can reasonably stat out and price something eventually someone will create a justification for it in game.

Well, Dynath, You're opinions are always excepted, despite being called solomon, you seem pretty withit.

DW, those guardies, they're just jealous that they have -basic- -crap- stats

I think this has been beaten to a pulp enough, end it here.

Deathworlders and hive gangers aren't regularly sent into battle without standard training, especially not for the specialists assigned to the special and heavy weapons. "Average people" was referring to civilian statlines not to what was most commonly found in the game. Cadians are bred to be soldiers just as Spartan men were bred to be soldiers; the sole purpose of their planet is to support the military. The Death Korps were made to be soldiers in an even more literal fashion.

Saying that they're less skilled than space marines and eldar doesn't say anything about their ability to operate grenade launchers, as being surrounded by more skilled soldiers doesn't make them any less skilled objectively. And choosing grenade launchers as an example of a difficult weapon to use makes no sense at any rate, since they use plasma guns and flamethrowers regularly, and are universally equipped with frag grenades.

Also, if you don't wish to continue and argument, I would suggest that you don't continue to proclaim yourself correct again while saying so.


Regarding the "Aurora Squad", it seems like sort of a mix between Devastators and Sternguard. They could also be considered somewhat similar to not only Chaos Havocs, but Chosen as well. Price wise Chosen cost a little more, but gain the infiltrate ability as well. Given this I could see the Aurora Squad being balanced if they taken as an Elite choice. As a Troop choice they simply blow away tactical marines in ability, and so would not be well balanced. Also, I would assume that taking the plasma pistols uses up the slots for special weapons as well; if not, I would change so that it does.

One thing Solon may want to consider is investing in some Sternguard with combi-weapons of his choice. They will play fairly similar to the Aurora Squad, and will probably have better acceptance for pick up games and such. Another advantage is that being the veterans of the chapter, they are a good candidate for being made a unique squad.


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Also, I don't have an Imperial Guard army.

oh, sorry about the name.


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Ok, so all i have to do to stop people pointing out the that my OPINIONS are wrong is say i'm wrong. Nope sorry, its an OPINION. Opinions, perceptions, interpretations, i'm entitled to mine. I've said already I interpret the same information differently and intend to reread it with a different eye when I get the chance. Until then the more you keep trying to convince me that the IG are some super trained military force that puts modern armies to shame the more I dislike the IG as a whole. Considering their squad size is twice that of SM i'd say that makes them half as competent. which I suppose should mean the "Average" human would be an 8th that or something. that doesn't change my interpretation, giving people with barely any armor and a Ballistic Skill that hits 30% of the time versus the AVERAGE opponent in the game blast weapons is asking for self inflicted wounds, or at least it would in the real world if games workshop actually allowed for self inflicted injuries. And statistically hitting 30% of the time with a gun is human average, in game its below average. So yes I believe they are under trained but considering their number of units and rates of fire they still hold their own.

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Sterngaurds are more expensive than what we are talking about and could potentially get 1 plasma pistol, 7 combi-plasmas, and 2 plasma cannons. looking on at the fire on target coupled with the model cost i'd still say the Aurora's would be a good choice for an army. buying them to 4 plasma guns would put them at a higher cost than sterngaurds but they would still give them a good place in the army. Your very likely to loose at least one of those plasmas to Gets Hot, considering the extra you pay for the option to deploy that many it's an expensive loss 28 to 30 points from the last build. I'd be comfortable facing them down with my blood angels, a quick assault would chop them down.

Ballistic Skill that hits 30% of the time versus the AVERAGE opponent in the game

So the game has no to hit modifiers I don't see the need for the average in your sentence their to hit roll is the same against any opponent. How is 3/6 = 30%? Where do you get your maths from?

Sterngaurds are more expensive than what we are talking about and could potentially get 1 plasma pistol, 7 combi-plasmas, and 2 plasma cannons. looking on at the fire on target coupled with the model cost i'd still say the Aurora's would be a good choice for an army. buying them to 4 plasma guns would put them at a higher cost than sterngaurds but they would still give them a good place in the army

You initially said they could also take 4 plasma pistols and they would be a troops choice sternguard are an elites choice that is a big difference. I'm not sure where you are getting they would be quickly chopped down by an assault squad from? A full 10 man squad on the charge with a Sarge with Power fist would on average only kill 3.5 they would choose to break and then rapid fire you to bits...

Yeah i was in a hurry and tired and I think I did the math on assault S3 vs MEQ statline. It happens way to much which is why I don't articulate myself as well as i'd like. It gets worse the angrier I get too which is a problem. Being pretty calm now I reread my post and don't get what my point was. Maybe I was trying to say wounds average of 30% of the time but thats a weapon stats thing which really isn't affected. Thats probably why i shouldn't let people get under my skin.

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As for the Aurora squads, I never said they can take 4 plasma pistols and 4 plasma guns. I suggested 1 of every 2 bolters could be made combi-weapons (total of 5) plus the Sarge's upgrade. I later agreed with someone's comment of 4 bolters upgraded to plasma guns or combi weapons, none of that says 4 added plasma pistols. I also keep pushing higher point costs of 20 to 22 points per model rather than 18 points per model, thats before upgrades so an aurora at my costs would sit at 280 pts (110pts base squad, +20pts x5 extra Marines, +15pts sarge Plasma Pistol, +15pts sarge power weapon, +10pts x4 plasma guns marines), if I'm rested enough that my math works thats a pretty steap cost especially for a troops choice. And i'm basing them off tactical marines with 1 attack in assault they would get decimated by assault marines on the charge, 3 auroras marines lost in the assault, chalk another one up to loosing the assault as a whole, even breaking and regrouping to rapid fire they would by odds loose 1 out of 4 plasma guns to gets hot and drop to half strength.

As its 'fluffy' for guard (according to dakka) to have more special weapons than SM, the reason marines dnt have dedicated special weapons squads must be because they are too honorable for melta/plasma spam.

if you want more s.weapons get some bikers/landspeeders.

Orkeosaurus wrote:They are both very well trained and expendable. Training, even very intensive training, is a hell of a lot easier to come by than power armor and genetic modification. Guardsmen would be largely useless if not trained very well, they're up against too dangerous of enemies to do anything without a huge amount of discipline and practice, and transportation across star systems is a significant investment (not worth putting into troops trained to PDF standards or the like, except in emergencies where no better suited troops are available). While they would be inexperienced when compared to enemies who are centuries old they're not going to have any more problems with the use of their (non-plasma) weapons any more than a modern army (with some exceptions, such as regiments raised from feral worlds).

The Cadians are raised from young childhood to be soldiers, Catachans fight from young childhood against the creatures that live in their jungles, Hive Ganger regiments are raised from the equivalent of modern drug cartels and such. They're very dangerous by modern standards, they just have trouble appearing that way when contrasted with the aliens, daemons, and supersoldiers that they exist alongside.

This is off topic, but I really don't see where people get the notion that Guardsmen are trained to anywhere near the equivalent of modern soldiers. Their sole job in the 40k universe is to stand in one position and shoot. Preferably with a crew-served weapon. This is not indicative as highly trained. If you wanted to adapt a modern soldier to the 40k universe, you would lose a lot of the 40k game dynamic. If your heavy weapon crewman dies in 40k, you lose the weapon. In real life, do you really think they're going to leave the squad's crew served weapon sitting there? And vox casters...every infantryman knows how to use a radio. The modern soldier is completely integrated with the full spectrum of assets in the field: artillery, air power, etc. One man can call down a JDAM on a house, or designate a section to be bombarded with artillery within minutes. Most modern armies issue night vision devices at the fireteam level, if not the individual level (in the case of the US military). 24" on a lasgun? A designated marksman can make hits out to several hundred meters, and well trained riflemen will easily make hits at 300 meters with ironsights. Depending on the army, usually you will have some sort of ranged antitank in the squad (like a LAW, SMAW, or RPG in the case of Eastern militaries) in addition to a crewserved weapon and designated marksmen. A regular infantry squad from a modern military, the IDF for example, would look like this:

12 men, 6 "sniper rifles" (DMRs), 12 combi-missile launchers (1 shot each), 3 grenade launchers (M203s), 2 heavy stubbers (Negevs, 5.56 LMGs), 1 heavy bolter (MAG or M240), camo cloaks, vox caster, "search light" for everyone (which does not permit return fire), frag grenades, close combat weapon, carapace armor. The vox
caster can call for airstrike of either conventional or smoke, mortars of either conventional or smoke, or conventional artillery (16 artillery rounds on target, basilisks are a joke compared to modern artillery).

In short, as they appear in the game, Guardsmen might as well be overweight couch potatoes. They stand around holding objectives at best, and get annihilated at worst.

NuggzTheNinja

Firstly you used to be able to keep the heavy weapons alive due to others picking them up the wound allocation is new to 5th Ed. Even then the chance of survival is not random as it would be hence I presume the wound allocation system represents the other guys picking up the weapon and if he dies early it represents the gun being destroyed along with the soldier.

Your reference to the range is also pretty random maybe the weapons only fire that far, heck a super soldier can far no further with his fire arm.

But the main problem with your break down is that is the rules to make a balanced game not a breakdown of the fluff. I mean grenades do no damage, a Space Marine will find a tree will protect him from a lascannon but offer no protection from a lasgun!??!

By the fluff 10 Space Marines should be easily the equivalent of 200+ Imperial Guardsmen who in turn should be the equivalent of Spec Ops by modern standards, with the Catachans the equivalent of the Ghurkas. You make the weakest thing in the game that good and everything gets OP and the game becomes silly.

Guardsmen are spec level soldiers by modern standards but in the 40K universe they are the lowest of the low.

FlingitNow wrote:NuggzTheNinja

Firstly you used to be able to keep the heavy weapons alive due to others picking them up the wound allocation is new to 5th Ed. Even then the chance of survival is not random as it would be hence I presume the wound allocation system represents the other guys picking up the weapon and if he dies early it represents the gun being destroyed along with the soldier.

Your reference to the range is also pretty random maybe the weapons only fire that far, heck a super soldier can far no further with his fire arm.

But the main problem with your break down is that is the rules to make a balanced game not a breakdown of the fluff. I mean grenades do no damage, a Space Marine will find a tree will protect him from a lascannon but offer no protection from a lasgun!??!

By the fluff 10 Space Marines should be easily the equivalent of 200+ Imperial Guardsmen who in turn should be the equivalent of Spec Ops by modern standards, with the Catachans the equivalent of the Ghurkas. You make the weakest thing in the game that good and everything gets OP and the game becomes silly.

Guardsmen are spec level soldiers by modern standards but in the 40K universe they are the lowest of the low.

It is impossible to compare Guardsmen to humans outside of the game. Guardsmen are in no way the equivalent of special operations units today. Special operations units, by definition, do not participate in conventional action as line units. Guardsmen are line infantry. Their job is to hold ground at best, and die as a speedbump at worst.

Even if you tried to apply training to the game mechanic, they are doing absolutely nothing that requires significant training. Real militaries have a limited number of soldiers, and highly technical assets with which to arm them. If all we had to do in real life was sit on a little fluorescent green flag and lay into the enemy with crew served weapons, our training period wouldn't be a cumulative total of 1.5 years in 3 years of active duty. It's not all physical, by the way. There's technical training, the development of an organic relationship, etc.

For members of the special operations community, it's a different story altogether. They aren't line infantry, and their training doesn't emphasis conventional warfare. Their training emphasizes unique methods of insertion, language skills, the ability to identify foreign equipment, the ability to function as light infantry and train indigenous personnel, etc.. IG are heavy infantry through and through.

Special operations units, by definition, do not participate in conventional action as line units.

Ghurkas, SAS and Spartans...

They're not used as Spec Ops but their training standard is at least that of Spec Ops of today probably greater that is the point. They are trained from birth to fight, whilst they are still the worst soldiers in the Galaxy (except Tau Firewarriors, who are trained from birth and breed for war). This is not because of a lack of training this is due to the physical limitations of the species, however our strength is in populace hence we have untolled numbers to call upon and a guardsman's life is not valued at all. However they are still highly trained and skilled.

In human history Spartans are the most like for like comparison to Guardsmen.

A Guardsman is like a Spartan in a world where you have a MUCH bigger supply of Spartans and all of your enemies are comparatively even scarier. You'll notice that in Dark Heresy a Guardsman character with a lasgun is quite formidable against other humans.

FlingitNow wrote:

However they are still highly trained and skilled.

In human history Spartans are the most like for like comparison to Guardsmen.

You haven't been here very long, and my guess is that you haven't read a terrible amount of the Guard fluff.

You've got to be joking me with that stuff ^^^ right? There are "elite" guard units, and there are squads of hive-gangers pressed into immediate service. Elite though? Good luck.

You haven't been here very long, and my guess is that you haven't read a terrible amount of the Guard fluff.

You've got to be joking me with that stuff ^^^ right? There are "elite" guard units, and there are squads of hive-gangers pressed into immediate service. Elite though? Good luck.

What part of Cadians being bred and trained from birth to be soldiers marks them out as different from eth Spartans. The Spartans were not elite their entire army consisted of Spartans, just that a Spartan was better than the Elite troops of any other army of the time. But they weren't elite in themselves they were the entire army, just like the Cadians...

FlingitNow wrote:

You haven't been here very long, and my guess is that you haven't read a terrible amount of the Guard fluff.

You've got to be joking me with that stuff ^^^ right? There are "elite" guard units, and there are squads of hive-gangers pressed into immediate service. Elite though? Good luck.

What part of Cadians being bred and trained from birth to be soldiers marks them out as different from eth Spartans. The Spartans were not elite their entire army consisted of Spartans, just that a Spartan was better than the Elite troops of any other army of the time. But they weren't elite in themselves they were the entire army, just like the Cadians...

Hey, the Space Marines are trained from a young age, as are the Tau. Both cultures raise specific youth in the ways of battle. Instead of giving a blanket statement of "they are LEET like Spartans", consider other countries that have the youth in the military, and for most of their lives...
- Imperial Japan
- Communist Cuba (read on their militia system for more info.)
- etc. etc.

The history of having a large civilian involvement in the military, via mostly militia training...it is commonplace beyond historical Sparta.

FlingitNow wrote:But they weren't elite in themselves they were the entire army, just like the Cadians...

Read your history! Dear goodness...dozing off in high school history and watching "300" doesn't make you an expert on Spartan society! The vast majority of the historic Spartan armies were made of a minority of the Spartans as you imagine them...and a majority of troops from other city states, as well as Helots (comparable to little more than slaves.) who made up the majority of most armies of the time!

Example: At the Battle of Plataea, there were roughly 7 Helots per Spartan... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plataea)

What makes them not an elite unit in the grand scheme of things, is that they are outclassed by many, many things in the universe of 40K. It's all relative!
Also think: How many worlds provide Guardsmen compared to Cadia? The vast majority of the Guard won't be men born and raised on Cadia.