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Is there any justification for splitting up another 4th Ed Codex into several books, a la Space Marines? If so, how would you do it? (REMEMBER: the question is NOT whether splitting up SM is justified or less justified than splitting up another dex.)

CSM is the obvious candidate but let's not get bogged down just there. I'm especially keen to see what kind of ideas people have about Eldar.

As for myself, I'd like to see SoB codex--which, in turn, I suppose would require a GK one and then a single combi-Inq book, too. Is it just me or do Inquisitors feel kind of tacked on? I think DH Inqs work better with GK than WH do with Sisters. IMO, Sisters have enough of their own flavor (thanks to their power armor/low WS and Faith points) to demand an independent sorting out.

Can the same be said for a Cult CSM army? How about a particular Craftworld?

GW did craftworld eldar for 3rd ed, which was useful for builds specific flavour.

If they could be made more subtantial, with fluff and unique rules then its a great idea, deffo for cult CSM and IG regiments.

however....

If GW wrote better rulebooks then you could see a reason for it but would you really want a raft of pamphlet thickness books that contradict each other by wording the basic rules differently and badly?

Already have it for SM. Might as well pass the love on to other factions. I am aware of Craftworld Eldar. What kind of features would you pass on from that into a fifth ed take on Eldar?

The Tau commander, Farsight, in 4th edition presented pretty much an almost entirely different faction with his special rules. I could really see a Farsight Enclave codex.

I would like to see the follow armies get their own supplement codex:

All of them.

But I can't even begin to think how bad the creep would be with more variety per codex, even one army getting it.

Ignoring the disability of a certain company to suit everyone's desires of 40k, My personal andd possibly horribly split up would be:

1) get rid of that chaos legions idea. Move on to more traitor guard / cultists.

So chaos gets:

- Chaos Demons
- Chaos warbands ( including the Basic chaos undivided, the IW , the AL, the NL, traitor IG )
- Chaos cults ( including all four selfproclaimed "gods". The WE, EC, DG, TS, WB, cultists and mutants. )

Demons can stay as is.

IW, AL, NL get small elite lists and traitor IG as filler to be either a standalone list or make up for choices in the
3 CSM flavours. No demonic units. Renegades as sublist for "space marine only play".
SC to differ renegades, undivided and maybe something for traitor IG.

We, Ec,Dg,Ts get small elite lists, maybe just 1-2 cult units but may use the cultist list to fill up the rest.
WB should have more access to demonic units, but still lots of cultists.
Cultists make up for basic troops and must be sacrificed to summon the demons.
Demons outside C: chaos demons should test their summoners strength, if you lose control they become a 3rd party
and attack anything in sight.
SC to mix cults or field "pure" CSM. Also non-SM psykers.

2) solve the eldar problem:

One book for basic craftworlds, reduced aspect use but Harlequins are found here. Balanced lists. Add dark space elfs here.

Another one for dedicated eldar craftworlds. All 4 famous ones.
Strongly specialized lists.

3) make the green smile:

orks / clans. Separeted into clan lists. Strongly specialized lists.
orks / da waagh. Speed freaks as sublist, general ork lists / balanced.

4) in the case of the imperium:

Agents of the imperium: Inquisition ( 3 ordos, assassins, Grey knights, deathwatch ).
Gets stormtroopers, Malleus > GK, hereticus > SoS, xenos > deathwatch, Assassins.
Maybe as expansion for "battle missions" or "apoc."

Ad mech: skittarii, tech guard.

Ecclesiarchy: SoB, frateris militia.

Imperial guard. Could split into : Armored company, artillery, infantry.

Space marines. Get DA, BA, SW, BT( IF , CF ), UM and codex, RG+IH+WS+Sallie.
Keep the big 3 different, move BT to all sons of dorn, Gather the UM and all codex compliant, sort the rest in their own book. Just cleanse and purify the history of 40k from this "everyone wanna be like smurfs" thing.....


5) Necrons : stay as one dex

6) Nids : stay as one dex

7) T'au : maybe a kroot list?



This will end bad.....

Could it be that GW fears that split codices inhibit creating your own fluff?

1hadhq wrote:Ignoring the disability of a certain company to suit everyone's desires of 40k, My personal andd possibly horribly split up would be:

1) get rid of that chaos legions idea. Move on to more traitor guard / cultists.

So chaos gets:

- Chaos Demons
- Chaos warbands ( including the Basic chaos undivided, the IW , the AL, the NL, traitor IG )
- Chaos cults ( including all four selfproclaimed "gods". The WE, EC, DG, TS, WB, cultists and mutants. )

Demons can stay as is.

IW, AL, NL get small elite lists and traitor IG as filler to be either a standalone list or make up for choices in the
3 CSM flavours. No demonic units. Renegades as sublist for "space marine only play".
SC to differ renegades, undivided and maybe something for traitor IG.

We, Ec,Dg,Ts get small elite lists, maybe just 1-2 cult units but may use the cultist list to fill up the rest.
WB should have more access to demonic units, but still lots of cultists.
Cultists make up for basic troops and must be sacrificed to summon the demons.
Demons outside C: chaos demons should test their summoners strength, if you lose control they become a 3rd party
and attack anything in sight.
SC to mix cults or field "pure" CSM. Also non-SM psykers.

2) solve the eldar problem:

One book for basic craftworlds, reduced aspect use but Harlequins are found here. Balanced lists. Add dark space elfs here.

Another one for dedicated eldar craftworlds. All 4 famous ones.
Strongly specialized lists.

3) make the green smile:

orks / clans. Separeted into clan lists. Strongly specialized lists.
orks / da waagh. Speed freaks as sublist, general ork lists / balanced.

4) in the case of the imperium:

Agents of the imperium: Inquisition ( 3 ordos, assassins, Grey knights, deathwatch ).
Gets stormtroopers, Malleus > GK, hereticus > SoS, xenos > deathwatch, Assassins.
Maybe as expansion for "battle missions" or "apoc."

Ad mech: skittarii, tech guard.

Ecclesiarchy: SoB, frateris militia.

Imperial guard. Could split into : Armored company, artillery, infantry.

Space marines. Get DA, BA, SW, BT( IF , CF ), UM and codex, RG+IH+WS+Sallie.
Keep the big 3 different, move BT to all sons of dorn, Gather the UM and all codex compliant, sort the rest in their own book. Just cleanse and purify the history of 40k from this "everyone wanna be like smurfs" thing.....


5) Necrons : stay as one dex

6) Nids : stay as one dex

7) T'au : maybe a kroot list?



This will end bad.....

I love the idea but how do we get GW to listen?
Also Tau: Kroot, Farsight, regular
imperium: rouge trader, pdf(crappy imperial guard)

Personally, I'm against splitting up dexes (SM is bad enough) and am an avid supporter of the 'Combined Inquisition' idea. A blanket dex allows for more fluff from the players perspective (if they so choose) and (I would imagine) makes it easier to balance opposing dexes out against each other.

Just my 2 cents.


As a side note, Speed Freeks and other ork clans could be something. Same goes for guard regiments ect.

To be frank outside of very general swaths done in a codex that combines some things (e.g. Codex Craftworld Eldar) I really don't see the demand or functionality.

Would I be amused at a different codex for each ork clan or all eighteen chapters? Yeah, I would, but I wouldn't want to buy them or deal with remembering the now twenty different potential builds for each race out there. To be honest even a few of the SM books (like Black Templars and even Dark Angels) make me wonder if we really needed separate codices, or if we just needed the ability within Codex Smurfs to field a few more potential varieties of armies.

I'd like to see CSM get some love with at least a Codex: Actual CSM Chapters type of thing, and wouldn't mind seeing a new Codex: Craftworld Pointy Ears come out. But beyond that? Meh. I don't see a real demand or need for any other race to get much expansion and frankly already consider Codex: Space Nuns to basically be focused on the Sisters of hotness enough and I don't really see the Grey Knights managing to carry their own codex, so I'm content with the Inquisition double set as is (though updates would be nice).

The above is even presuming GW stayed on top of updating the codices they *do* produce - under their current system I think they're woefully understaffed to meet the writing demands of what they already have out.

Why so, EF?

@1hadhq: You could of course split every existing codex into several but what makes you think, in each case you listed, that GW might want or should do it? For example, specialized Ork army lists? I can't agree. Can't they all pretty much do what they need to out of the existing book? Now, if we look to SW2nd it seems like these are pretty divergent from Codex Astartes Astartes. (I'm anxious to see if the same tack is taken with BA.) BT are another good example--they play nothing like Codex marines, form what I've heard/seen/read--but you can confirm or deny. I think Sisters could use their own book because (1) they already have a complete model list, (2) they have a very distinct mechanical identity, (3) they could easily be made into an entirely independent and cohesive list with minimal additions. From a cost/benefit analysis, I think GW should go for it. BUT for two things: (1) how many people actually play sisters (I really have no clue) and (2) I'm sure they would want to re-release at least basic troops in plastic. Still, I think it's a lot more plausible than a Kroot book much less (no matter how cool it would definitely be) the Farsight Enclave book agnosto suggested.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thor665 wrote:Meh. I . . . frankly already consider Codex: Space Nuns to basically be focused on the Sisters of hotness enough

That's kind of the problem. Sisters obviously overwhelm that dex but for the sake of calling it Witch Hunters it's burdened with units that don't work well or well enough (looking at you, Repentia!) with them. They could stand just a tweak (pun away) to become a lot more playable.

Manchu wrote:Why so, EF?

Why so what?

BTW, Sisters Repentia are part of the Sisters of Battle sect.

Inexplicably, Sisters Repentia do not have faith points. Underlining it just makes more apparent what I was pointing out.

As to the why, I think you answered me in your post edit.

Manchu wrote:Inexplicably, Sisters Repentia do not have faith points. Underlining it just makes more apparent what I was pointing out.

Maybe becuase they're crazed psyco-ladies that wield massive chainswords and do not think themselves worthy of the Emperors aid?

As to the why, I think you answered me in your post edit.

Okay. So what do you think of it then?

Manchu wrote:

@1hadhq: You could of course split every existing codex into several but what makes you think, in each case you listed, that GW might want or should do it? For example, specialized Ork army lists? I can't agree. Can't they all pretty much do what they need to out of the existing book? Now, if we look to SW2nd it seems like these are pretty divergent from Codex Astartes Astartes. (I'm anxious to see if the same tack is taken with BA.) BT are another good example--they play nothing like Codex marines, form what I've heard/seen/read--but you can confirm or deny. I think Sisters could use their own book because (1) they already have a complete model list, (2) they have a very distinct mechanical identity, (3) they could easily be made into an entirely independent and cohesive list with minimal additions. From a cost/benefit analysis, I think GW should go for it. BUT for two things: (1) how many people actually play sisters (I really have no clue) and (2) I'm sure they would want to re-release at least basic troops in plastic. Still, I think it's a lot more plausible than a Kroot book much less (no matter how cool it would definitely be) the Farsight Enclave book agnosto suggested.

Was asked to split codices...

But no, GW should not split those xenos codices if they can't get it done.
Thougth this is a "what if" scenario with ressources at hand and maybe even proofreading before kicking it to the printers...

Not sure why you defend the SW here. Anyone tried to stuff them into codex ultras?
For rules, i hope BA do better. Could be a case of the fluff-kelly with SW since orks seem to suffer also a bit from
YMDC attention...

So we keep the existant codices?

But i do prefer to outsource the non-ultras to save them.
Maybe only 1 little codex? Shouldnt be hard to extract from index astartes...

With sisters, wouldn't it be a return? Wasn't there a dex?
Still, the available units now, wouldn't be enough for a codex.
1. More than 3 choices if you got 3 FOC slots to fill. Neccessary competition.
2. Plastic. But keep the design. No anime sisters
3. So what could stay? SoB alone lack a bit in variety. 7 units + HQ is all i can remember.
4. Frateris militia as meatshields...
5. Valks? Flyin sisters.. should be affordable if those ecclesiarchs open their wallets.
6. GW needs some female models. Plus someone who gets them right.

T'au. I think as CE pointed out in another thread, they won't need a second list. They need help.
Pwnedd in every new codex, now eaten and harvested.
So no.

Could reinsert the ad mech idea here.
May be a new army then.. will leave it as its not a "split".

I think you're spot on about ease of balance. A million codices would make things a bit dicey when it comes time to throw down, as other have also mentioned. But I also think that argument can get pushed too far. Having BT, DA, BA, SW, and Codex Marines hasn't exploded anyone's head (for complexity at least) so what would two Eldar codices really hurt? I'm more with you on the homebrew inhibition (as I said a few posts before yours), which I think is a good argument against having Chaos Legions, Ork Klans, and Craftworld-specific books.

As to the Repentia, I'd say they're no less faithful. Maybe moreso, actually, as they aren't always even repenting their own actions but doing penance for another, a group of others, or the fallen nature of the universe. Plus they come with mistress (sergeant), which is the prerequisite for line Sisters generating Faith.

So, once again, them not having it makes no sense and should be tweaked. And that should be done in their own dex. And, once again, I'm with you on that Codex: Inquisition book. Just pull Sisters out. Maybe have them be the core of Codex: Ecclesiarchy, as 1hadhq suggested.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

1hadhq wrote:No anime sisters

Throne preserve us!

Honestly, apart from a few tweaks all SM spin offs share the same core. Like someone here said, they should be dropped in favour of more specialist choices in a single SM book.

You really like sisters don't you? I do to, but I see no reason for them to be given a seperate codex. They are an integral part of the Inquisition. Why should they get a seperate codex and not Grey Knights? They have relatively the same roles respectively. I think it should still be possible to have a 'Sister Only' army, (which it is) but that does not mean they should have thier own dex.

I like the idea of 'Super-Dexes' simply because it simplifies things. (pun )

As for Repentia, how would acts of faith benefit them? I can only think of thier saves being made into invo's or extra strength, but then it seems a bit overpowered to me. I think GW may have been wise in letting Acts of Faith slide for repentia.

Considering, I play them . . . yeah, I think they're right awesome. As for GK, without Ben Counter they're just more Legion of the Damned. I.e., they don't have much to really differentiate them from SM. Organizationally, both are currently chambers militant of their respective Ordos. But their historical origins are quite independent from the Inquisition. (Actually, one wonders just how old the Inquisition really is--did the Emperor really order its formation or is the modern Inquisition a reaction to Goge Vandire's tyranny? Anyway, save that for another thread.) In any case, the fluff is not determinative of the split, IMO. Sisters should be filled out to an entirely faith-based, independent list and the Inquisition can have it's own ally-an-Inquisitor book with or without the GK. No one has offered much of an argument for why they should get their own book.

If you took all the special rules from the Codex divergent chapters and piled them into Matt Ward's C:SM5th, the resultant tome would rival the BGB. Plus, for every separate dex there's newly (re)confirmed fluff. I don't think a SM super dex is a good idea.

You know I had spent some time typing up how I would actually do every army and how I would give them each their own "uniqueness" treatment and I have just given up...With the way the company is ran I just could not see any way to do it fairly without it ending up back to where it is now or worse. From the very beginning if they had treated it all like the 3rd ed Eldar/Eldar Craftworld books I think the game would be far different and better then it is now. But what we are theoretically asking to be done in this moment just could not work. GW is an old dog and I just can't think of any way I could teach it a new trick without killing it and bringing in a younger look-a-like dog under the same name and hope no one notices.

throws hands up I give up.

1hadhq wrote:7) T'au : maybe a kroot list?

They had one a while back, it just needs to be brought into the 5th Edition light. Kroot Mercenaries were awesome, especially on a field full of trees (See this terrain? Not only do I now have a 3+ cover, but I ignore it). The special gear they could take was actually pretty cool, too. It's kind of possible to field a Kroot army now, but it's kind of dulled by the required 1+ Commander and 1+ Fire Warrior squad.

I'd actually kind of like to see a Tau variant for aliens in the Empire, either that or just some special rules...and for once, actually see the Gue'vesa get some in-game stats rather than a vague mention.

Oh, and as unlikely as it'd be, I think it'd be kind of interesting to see Chaos get split up into 6 different codices. One for each Chaos God (Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh) and one each for Chaos Undivided and Chaos Daemons. Obviously it'd take a long time, but Marines get the same treatment with all of their variant codices...

@Manchu: The Inquisition has existed for at least a long as the Imperium. It was present when the Emperor hosted the Big Debate on the aspects of sorcery and whether it should be allowed. It is only the Witch Hunter (Ordos Hereticus) aspect that sprung out of the Vandire Insanity.

My point is this, you wish for an entirely seperate faith-based sister army without any Inquisition. I am saying that is entirely possible. You can easily wrangle an entirely legal, and even playable (competitive) army comprising only of SoB 's. You don't need to tear apart the sisters from the codex when it's perfectly legal to create an army of sisters already. I like the Inquisitorial and Assassin choices, frankly the more choices the better. I would find a 'Sister Only Dex' to be far too restrictive.

A canonical source for Inquistors at Nikaea? It must be from Index Astartes. IF it is, then I am beginning to question the canonicity of IA in light of the HH series.

As for the Sisters only dex, you have to consider it with (1) more sisters units and (2) alongside of a separate full-Inq book. Inqs and their storm troops and even GK are great as modular allies. Sisters do not work well that way. The more non-Faith stuff you put with a Sisters list, the less effective they become. If you look at some of these so-called "competitive" WH lists out there you'll find they often have no Sisters and are simply taking Exorcists or Immolators. Leaving Sisters as-is is what is actually too restrictive--for the POV of a true Sisters player.

I read it in one of the old (250-300th?) edition White Dwarf concering the Thousands Sons descent into Chaos. At the council of Nicea, Magnus and his sorcerors argued for an unrestrained use of Warp Magiks, while all sorts of scholars AND Inquisitorial figures argued against any such use. An SM Librarian (forget who) stood and argued for some sort of compromise. I'm sure you are well aware of what was decided afterwards.

Not everyone is a pure sisters player, Manchu. Just as not everyone is a pure GK player. Like I've said, taking away the choice of adding in Inquisitorial aspects is nothing to be appluaded. Why do you want an entirely seperate dex? No one is forcing you to add Inquisitorial units into your pure Sister army. How will giving them a codex of thier own help them? (imagine nothing new is added or taken away)

NIKAEA!!! Nicea was a real counsel convened by Emperor Constantine in 325 mostly to deal with the Arian heretics. /rant

As I've alteady said, Sisters are currently burdened with the freak show. Let them be in their own Inquisitorial dex or rework witch hunters to be more faith point-friendly. I think the best way to go about it would be reframing what was expected out of the current WH dex more empahtically around the Sisters. As Thor already pointed it, it's already obviously about them. But it's half-assed atm. It wasn't awesome when it first appeared and it's certainly not awesome now. A pure Sisters dex or sisters-heavy, faith point-based Ecclesiarchy dex is what's needed to sort it out. Let the Inquisition go have its own book complete with Ordo Xenos for all I care--just allow my faith point mechanic girls to really shine rather than continuing on as a stepchild army.

So you're basically the ditsy girl carrying your SoB case waving your hands in the air singing; "Let them be freeeee!"

1) It's not going to happen.
2) Ever.
3) It would be plain bothersome to have another codex.
4) They don't deserve thier own codex.
5) Apart from a different toughness, strength and Acts of Faith they are no different from your average Space Marine. Maybe they should be chucked in a 'Super-Marine Dex' as well?

Honestly, I can imagine Sisters of Battle as a part of a 'Super-Inquistor Codex.'

The three main armies would be GK, SoB and Deathwatch (Or whatever the Alien hunters call themselves) with Inquisitorial forces all round to spice them up.

However none of these three sects are deserving of a codex all on their own.

A Sisters-centric re-worked WH book is far more likely, IMO, than the 200pg Super-Inq book you're talking about given that all I'm asking for is that GW do a better job at what they tried to do in 2003. Plus, Sisters--unlike GK, Kroot, EVEN Blood Angels--had their own printed Dex ages ago so it would not be so out of left field to do so again. Finally, your fifth point is pretty weak. Reads like: aside from not being Space Marines at all, they're no different from your average Space Marine. The only thing that makes them similar is their armor save. Other troops choices (Eldar Rangers, Dire Avengers, and IG vets) have BS4, after all, and there really is no other substantial similarity except that they both use bolters.

100pg's would be closer to the mark, I think.

Assassin's had their own dex to. That could have worked better. My fifth point was a bit of a joke if you didn't realise. (which you obviously didn't)

I get that you're a fanboy, Manchu, I understand that you think the Ecclesiarchy should have it's own dex (which I honestly find to be frankly debatable). But you have to realise that puting the SoB into a seperate codex is just going to ostracize them even further. You and a few other die-hard supporters would be happy, but the majority of people who integrate SoB's into their army would not.

I don't think you know your Sisters fanbase, EF. Those who play Sisters do not water down their Sisters. And if you're going to take an =I= ally for anything other than fluff purposes, it'll most likely be GK over SoB. This is part of my argument that Sisters are better suited to being on their own rather than as a stepchild add-on army and could stand their own dex. Frankly, I think it's a sound argument compared to the pie-in-the-sky Chaos Legions whining or even a LotD redux.

Frankly, points one through five all seem like jokes to me. Look at it in a glass-half-full way. I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I liked how they did the kabal/cult variations in the DE codex. "Ok, do the standard and you can take anything you want. Change this, and these units all swap around, you can take more of this, but none of that." Expand that mechanism and it could work well for other codexes with niche variants.

"Normal WH work like this. Do that, and it becomes a pure SoB army and this changes, and now [x] unit generates faith points because of the inspiration of [y]," or something along those lines. Maybe a few units that can only be used in such a list variation. Sort of like how certain special SM characters make particular units troops when they're normally not, but with the idea expanded. It would make it easier to balance, and perhaps more importantly make GW give it more support. The less codexes being juggled the more likely any particular one is going to get updated.

I'd also like to shuffle the majority of SM variants into a single codex. Not sure if Space Wolves could fit, they pretty much break every rule of the SM organisation structure already. Black Templars and Blood Angels could certainly share a dex, even it it was just a combined armoury and printing space. I think Dark Angels could slot into that too. Erm... have I missed a variant?

In my mind the library of 40k codexes should consist of the following:

Codex Space Marines
Codex Imperial Guard
Codex Eldar
Codex Dark Eldar
Codex Tyranids
Codex Tau
Codex Necrons
Codex Orks
Codex Chaos Space Marines
Codex Daemons
Codex Lost and the Damned
Codex Inquisition (Including Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights, and Deathwatch)

Each codex should be built upon a core set of rules per faction but ALSO include a set of criteria and rules that allows players to not only build faction specific forces (such as Blood Angels, Craftworld Bel’Tan, World Eaters or even Farsight Sept Tau or Bad moon Orks) but criteria and rules for allying certain codexes with one another (Space marines with Imperial Guard, Chaos Space Marines with daemons, etc.)

This, in my mind, is the ideal way to avoid inconstancies across like-codexes; Stormshields behaving one way on one codex and another way in another codex for example. I think most players won’t mind paying a little more for a thicker, more comprehensive book, than waiting twenty years hoping for a codex update. At a reasonable rate of 2 codexes per year, GW could update all codexes every 6 years