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If a Hive Tyrant joined a unit of the tyrant guard, say one model even, and the one guard is in cover, does the hive tyrant benefit from cover because he is in a unit that is 50% in cover? Or does being a monstrous creature negate this bonus?? Curious if anyone can site the correct answer and not just go with how you think it should go. Same sort of question I have w/ tomb spyders and scarabs but I have never gotten a difinitive answer.

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:If a Hive Tyrant joined a unit of the tyrant guard, say one model even, and the one guard is in cover, does the hive tyrant benefit from cover because he is in a unit that is 50% in cover? Or does being a monstrous creature negate this bonus?? Curious if anyone can site the correct answer and not just go with how you think it should go. Same sort of question I have w/ tomb spyders and scarabs but I have never gotten a difinitive answer.

The answer is both Yes, No, Maybe and Bananas.

TBH, I would say the UNIT as a whole gets the cover save.

I'd say no, here's why.

There's nothing that indicates that the rules for cover saves change when a monstrous creature joins a unit. The unit may be in cover, but the monstrous creature only gets to claim a cover save if you can't see more than 50% of it. As wounds are allocated before saves are taken, the guard can benefit from the cover for the wounds allocated to it, but the hive tyrant cannot.

Redbeard wrote:I'd say no, here's why.

There's nothing that indicates that the rules for cover saves change when a monstrous creature joins a unit. The unit may be in cover, but the monstrous creature only gets to claim a cover save if you can't see more than 50% of it. As wounds are allocated before saves are taken, the guard can benefit from the cover for the wounds allocated to it, but the hive tyrant cannot.

I Disagree. By that logic, if a unit of 10 Bog Standard Infantry had 6 in cover and 4 out, you could not take cover saves for the 4 outside cover, which is not what the rules say. A UNIT benefits from cover, never just Individual models.

Redbeard wrote:I'd say no, here's why.

There's nothing that indicates that the rules for cover saves change when a monstrous creature joins a unit. The unit may be in cover, but the monstrous creature only gets to claim a cover save if you can't see more than 50% of it. As wounds are allocated before saves are taken, the guard can benefit from the cover for the wounds allocated to it, but the hive tyrant cannot.

But when the tyrant joins the unit of tyrant guard, it does so "...exactly as if it were an independent character."
So the unit would follow the rules for independent characters and units. THe IC is part of the unit, and if 50% of the unit is in cover, it gets a cover save.

Redbeard wrote:I'd say no, here's why.

There's nothing that indicates that the rules for cover saves change when a monstrous creature joins a unit. The unit may be in cover, but the monstrous creature only gets to claim a cover save if you can't see more than 50% of it. As wounds are allocated before saves are taken, the guard can benefit from the cover for the wounds allocated to it, but the hive tyrant cannot.

I agree, as the RB specifically states that "the 50% rule takes precedence."

So while a unit (like Gwar!) said earlier would gain the benefit of cover, the 50% rule *must* take precedence as the RB has stated for cover on page 51 in the MC section for cover. Besides, wounds are distributed throughout the squad, and if the MC is in a squad of non-MCs, than the rest of the squad can take their cover saves, and the MC is stuck with armor or Inv saves.

The unit getting a cover save if 50% of the unit is able to claim cover breaks no rules.

It's still part of a unit, but it doesn't lose monstrous creature status.

That means you have to apply both the rules for the unit, and also the rules for the monstrous creature.

Sure, it's in cover as part of the unit, but when you check the monstrous creature rules, it no longer counts as being in cover.

It's part of a unit, AND a monstrous creature. By standard rules of logic, both sets of requirements must be met. They're not, and therefore it doesn't get to take that save.

The 50% rule IS taking precidence. If the 1 Tyrant Guard was not in cover, and the Hive Tyrant is only 49% covered, then the unit doesn't get a cover save.

If the Tyrant above was 51% covered, then the WHOLE UNIT gets a cover save.

kirsanth wrote:The unit getting a cover save if 50% of the unit is able to claim cover breaks no rules.

the rule I quoted is specifically talking about 50% of the MC is obscured like a vehicle takes "precedence". Its on page 51 second paragraph under the heading "shooting"

EDIT: In fact the RB says it works "exactly" like a vehicle would and that 50% of its body must be obscured from the POV of the firer for it to benefit and that the 50% takes "precedence".

Say HT is 10 inches, HG is 5 inches, then the total of the squad is 15 inches. So that would mean that 7.5 inches must be in cover then for the rule to take place.

If the firing model can see say 7.6 inches of HT, then the unit is not in cover. If the frining odel can only see7.4 inches, then the HT is in cover then. That is how I read that half the unit or squad or brood must be in cover to get the save.

Heheh that is just wrong Dave heheheh.

I dont have my BRB but does it not have something about mixed units? I still think Majority would apply here but again I dont have my book in front of me.

You're misapplying the combination of the rules. A monstrous creature has additional restrictions that define when it may, or may not, get a cover save. It's not just another member of a unit.

Monstrous Creatures always have to check their own criteria before determining whether they get a save. Even if they're in a unit. Unless something suddenly stops them from being a MC, then their ability to get cover is dependent on whether you can see 50% of that model.

This isn't exactly hard to implement. You're already rolling separate saves for the guard and the tyrant because of wound allocation. What's so hard about them having different saves?

Redbeard wrote:Monstrous Creatures always have to check their own criteria before determining whether they get a save. Even if they're in a unit.

Quote from the rulebook please, because that is just you making things up. If they are in a unit, they follow BOTH rules.

Monstrous Creatures always have to check their own criteria before determining whether they get a save. Even if they're in a unit.

I understand your logic but can you reference anything rules wise that would help? Not being argumentative but just saying that Redbeard told me so will just start a food fight

Fishboy wrote:I understand your logic but can you reference anything rules wise that would help? Not being argumentative but just saying that Redbeard told me so will just start a food fight

Just say Gwar! sent you then. If they know their place they will listen

padixon wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The unit getting a cover save if 50% of the unit is able to claim cover breaks no rules.

the rule I quoted is specifically talking about 50% of the MC is obscured like a vehicle takes "precedence". Its on page 51 second paragraph under the heading "shooting"

EDIT: In fact the RB says it works "exactly" like a vehicle would and that 50% of its body must be obscured from the POV of the firer for it to benefit and that the 50% takes "precedence".

I hope you play vehicle squadrons that way.

Most folks follow the 50% of the unit in cover rule.

Fishboy wrote:

Monstrous Creatures always have to check their own criteria before determining whether they get a save. Even if they're in a unit.

I understand your logic but can you reference anything rules wise that would help? Not being argumentative but just saying that Redbeard told me so will just start a food fight

Fishboy wrote:

Monstrous Creatures always have to check their own criteria before determining whether they get a save. Even if they're in a unit.

I understand your logic but can you reference anything rules wise that would help? Not being argumentative but just saying that Redbeard told me so will just start a food fight

Gwar! wrote:

Fishboy wrote:I understand your logic but can you reference anything rules wise that would help? Not being argumentative but just saying that Redbeard told me so will just start a food fight

Just say Gwar! sent you then. If they know their place they will listen

FOOD FIGHT!

Just say Gwar! sent you then. If they know their place they will listen

That will just start a poo throwing fight then

Gwar! wrote: Quote from the rulebook please, because that is just you making things up. If they are in a unit, they follow BOTH rules.

That's what I just said. They have to follow both rules.

The relevant issue isn't in the rulebook, it's known as logic. In logic, there are several ways to join two statements. The first is known as AND, and it is, as you say above, what's applied when you have to meet both conditions. There are others, but this is the relevant one here. As you've agreed that we have to follow both rules, I think we can progress from there...

With an AND statement, the validity of the whole is predicated upon the validity of all parts. If I say, "The sky is blue AND the grass is green" then this statement is only true if each part is true independently.

Moving on to our specific case:

For a Hive Tyrant in a unit to get a cover save, both its unit must qualify for a save, AND it must qualify for a save as a MC. This is following both rules, as you spell out above.

So, you have to evaluate both parts of the statement.

Part one, does the unit qualify for the save? If one model is in cover and another is not, then 50% is in cover, and it qualifies for the save. Therefore, this part evaluates to TRUE.

Part two, does the MC qualify for the save? The Hive Tyrant is not obscured in any way, therefore according to the rule on page 51, "for a monstrous creature to be in cover, at least 50% of it's body (as defined on page 16) has to be in cover from the point of view of the majority of the firing models.", this part evaluates to FALSE.

Applying our logical truth table, we find that TRUE AND FALSE equates to FALSE, and therefore, the MC in question does not get a cover save.

That's what you get when you apply both the rules. If you need additional help understanding logical connectives, I suggest you check wikipedia.




Rule One:

I Ran into this problem Saturday but it was slightly different as I run 2 Tyrant Guard.

My opponent & our FLGS both agreed, after showing them the Shieldwall rule of the Tyrant Guard, that since it says "Exactly as if it were an IC" and 2 tyrant guard were in cover that it meant 50% was in cover & the tyrant got the save.

I see where this is going with one hive tyrant & the size of the HT but, while not 100% RaW, my FLGS discussed this & said to rule it like they would a 1 man marine squad (Casualties to shooting?) and an IC. If 50%, i.e. one model, is in cover they get the save.

Redbeard wrote:

Gwar! wrote: Quote from the rulebook please, because that is just you making things up. If they are in a unit, they follow BOTH rules.

In logic, there are several ways to join two statements. The first is known as AND...

I call shenanigans, nowhere can I find a reference that claims an 'AND' is the first way to join statements.

That said, there is precedent in the way vehicle squadrons are handled that suggest Redbeard's argument is the correct way to handle this problem. I would run units of 3 guard so two can sit in cover and the one can obscure your almost unsportsmanlike small Hive Tyrant.

imweasel wrote:

padixon wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The unit getting a cover save if 50% of the unit is able to claim cover breaks no rules.

the rule I quoted is specifically talking about 50% of the MC is obscured like a vehicle takes "precedence". Its on page 51 second paragraph under the heading "shooting"

EDIT: In fact the RB says it works "exactly" like a vehicle would and that 50% of its body must be obscured from the POV of the firer for it to benefit and that the 50% takes "precedence".

I hope you play vehicle squadrons that way.

Most folks follow the 50% of the unit in cover rule.

Hey, I am just quoting the rule book, and it does say the 50% obscured takes "precedence". A rule of thumb is to follow all rules without breaking them

1. Is the MC in a unit that is 50% or more in cover (obscured from the firer): Yes
2. Is the MC 50% or more obscured from the firer (which takes precedence): No

no cover save

Its up to your lgs and groups after that.

And Yes I do play vehicle squadrons that way, as per the rule book on page 64. You 1. work out if a vehicle has 50% cover 1st if yes, then 2. work out if 50% or more of the vehicle squadrons are in cover if yes, then the squadron gets a cover save. Its all explained in the last paragraph of the shooting phase on page 64.

Hence

1. Is the vehicle(s) more than 50% or mover in cover (takes precedence): Yes
2. Is more than 50% of those vehicles from 1. in cover: Yes

Cover saves are made.

Basically, follow all rules while not breaking any of them, and you will be in the right.

The MC may be in a group (of non-MCs) that is all in cover and would meet one criteria, but if the MC is not more than 50% obscured (takes precedence) than it is not in cover.

So if half a vehicle squadron is in cover/obscured the other half does not get a cover save?

kirsanth wrote:So if half a vehicle squadron is in cover/obscured the other half does not get a cover save?

You work out which vehicles are in cover as normal for vehicles, then work out the cover save for the squadron as normal for a unit.

So if half the vehicles in a squadron are in cover, then the squadron gets a cover save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

padixon wrote:
The MC may be in a group (of non-MCs) that is all in cover and would meet one criteria, but if the MC is not more than 50% obscured (takes precedence) than it is not in cover.

MC usualy cannot join other units. They would have to be ruled as ICs to do so. Under the old rules, the tyranid FAQ used this for hive tyrants;

Q. Is the Hive Tyrant an independent character?
A. No, so it cannot join other units. The only
exception to this is, of course, its retinue of Tyrant
Guard. This unit follows the rules for retinues
(except that the Hive Tyrant counts as an upgrade
character with this unit) until the Guards are all
destroyed, at which point the Hive Tyrant reverts
to the normal rules for monstrous creatures.

The new codex still lists the hive tyrant as a monstrous creature. However, it may take a tyrant guard brood as a living shieldwall. The rules for this say that the hive tyrant can join the unit of tyrant guard exactly as if it were an independent character.

It doesn't say that the hive tyrant becomes and IC or follows all the rules for it. So it is still an MC, it can still fire 2 weapons, close combat wounds ignore armor saves, and 50% of it's body must be obscured for it to get a cover save.

padixon wrote:

imweasel wrote:

padixon wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The unit getting a cover save if 50% of the unit is able to claim cover breaks no rules.

the rule I quoted is specifically talking about 50% of the MC is obscured like a vehicle takes "precedence". Its on page 51 second paragraph under the heading "shooting"

EDIT: In fact the RB says it works "exactly" like a vehicle would and that 50% of its body must be obscured from the POV of the firer for it to benefit and that the 50% takes "precedence".

I hope you play vehicle squadrons that way.

Most folks follow the 50% of the unit in cover rule.

Hey, I am just quoting the rule book, and it does say the 50% obscured takes "precedence". A rule of thumb is to follow all rules without breaking them

1. Is the MC in a unit that is 50% or more in cover (obscured from the firer): Yes
2. Is the MC 50% or more obscured from the firer (which takes precedence): No

no cover save

Its up to your lgs and groups after that.

And Yes I do play vehicle squadrons that way, as per the rule book on page 64. You 1. work out if a vehicle has 50% cover 1st if yes, then 2. work out if 50% or more of the vehicle squadrons are in cover if yes, then the squadron gets a cover save. Its all explained in the last paragraph of the shooting phase on page 64.

Hence

1. Is the vehicle(s) more than 50% or mover in cover (takes precedence): Yes
2. Is more than 50% of those vehicles from 1. in cover: Yes

Cover saves are made.

Basically, follow all rules while not breaking any of them, and you will be in the right.

The MC may be in a group (of non-MCs) that is all in cover and would meet one criteria, but if the MC is not more than 50% obscured (takes precedence) than it is not in cover.

Let me see if I have this straight.

If I have 2 vehicles, and if only one is 50% obscured/concealed, the squad does not get a cover save?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

time wizard wrote:It doesn't say that the hive tyrant becomes and IC or follows all the rules for it. So it is still an MC, it can still fire 2 weapons, close combat wounds ignore armor saves, and 50% of it's body must be obscured for it to get a cover save.

So the hive tyrant isn't part of the unit?

imweasel wrote: So the hive tyrant isn't part of the unit?

Part of the unit? Yes.
But an unusual unit and a difficult one as far as determining cover saves is concerned.

I would say no, as a MC must be 50% obscured to get a save seems cut and dry, but with shooting and save allocation allowing you to stick a good portion of low AP on the T Guard, it seems to not be a real issue. Hopefully an FAQ will clarify because to my knowledge this is the only instance where this can happen.

If you have half of the unit in cover, then the entire unit gets the cover saves, it's really that simple. If you have a Guard, and he's got cover, then the Tyrant gets it too. If you have two Guard, then they both need to be in cover. If you have three Guard, just two of them still. So long as half the unit is in cover, the entire unit benefits, the rules spell that out quite clearly.

Isn't this all covered by the Character rules?

If an Indipendant character (which the Tyrant counts as in this case) who is an MC joins a unit of infantry, then the character may be picked out for shooting (Pg 49 I think). So if the Tyrant Guard are in cover but the Tyrant is not, the Tyrant can be picked out on his own without the benefit of cover. If the Tyrant is in cover use the normal rules for an MC in cover (50%).