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The rule on page 49 actually says the IC may not be picked out as a target.

..unless the IC is a monstreous creature.

However given as the HT is NOT an IC (he only joins as one, he is NOT one) then that rule from page 49 is not in effect. As a normal member of the unit he cannot be picked out.

To determine if a unit is in cover, yuo determine if half the models are in cover. This means that 1 guard being in cover WILL give the HT a cover save.

The Hive Tyrant does not count as an IC, he just uses the IC rule to join the unit.

Page 49 dosn't matter. The Hive Tyrant is not an IC. The only thing that an IC applies to the HT is that he can join the brood of TG. It dosn't give the HT IC status at all. So since he is in a brood with different war gear and stats the wounds can be spread out in shooting and CC.

One thing to consider also, since the HT is not an IC it can't leave the TG, so once it's joined, he is stuck with them as a brood.

It's not that MCs have to be 50% obscured to get a cover save.

They must be 50% obscured to count as in cover. Difference? Here:

A tyrant guard and hive tyrant are joined together as a unit. A low 1" wall is present on the board. The hive tyrant gets behind it, but the tyrant guard is in the open.

The hive tyrant is not 50% covered by the wall, which he must be in order to count as in cover. Thus, he is not in cover, and the guard is not in cover, more than 50% of the models in the unit are NOT in cover, and nobody gets a save.

Reverse:

The tyrant guard is behind the 1" wall, and the hive tyrant is in the open. The hive tyrant is of course not obscured. The tyrant guard, though, being not a monstrous creature, is. Now, 50% of the unit is obscured, and the ENTIRE unit gets a cover save.

The monstrous creature rule decides what does and does not count a monstrous creature as obscured. If he's part of a unit, though, and the majority of the models in that unit are getting cover, then they benefit.


As another situation that cannot happen, imagine 9 CSM with a greater daemon attached [I know it can't] where 5 of the CSM are behind a wall, and the GD and 4 CSM are in the open. The GD would get a cover save, because 1/2 of the unit is concealed, even though it itself isn't counting towards which models are concealed.

As far as I can tell, Redbeard is conflating the rules for 'being in cover' and for 'cover saves'. A monstrous creature must be 50%+ in cover to be in cover. In addition, the rules state that the 50% rule takes precedence over over standing in area terrain (page 51). All of this combines to make it unusually difficult for an MC to be in cover.

What it doesn't change is how the rules for 'Units partially in cover' on page 22 are applied because they are not addressed. The rules on page 22 say that if half or more of the models in the unit are in cover, then everybody gets cover saves. The bizarre reference in the MC rules to having cover saves work the same as for vehicles doesn't change this because the rules for units of vehicles refers back to page 22 for how to work out cover saves for units of vehicles, and as a result units containing MC's work as normal:

If there's a unit with one hive tyrant and one hive guard, and the hive guard is in area terrain or otherwise in cover, that means that the hive tyrant gets a cover save where ever it is, because the hive guard is half or more of the unit and the hive guard is in cover.

Assuming you play that the Hive Tyrant can be picked out for shooting, then this clearly isn't an issue, he can't get a cover save from someone else when being targeted alone.

If you don't play that way, then as long as 50% or more of the unit is considered "In Cover" the whole unit gets a cover save, so yes, he can then get a save from his Tyrant Guards.

So i think i understand where we are but not positive:

1) HT is behind cover, 51% obscured, while a TG is in the open: 50%+ of MC is in cover as well as 50% of unit = unit granted benefit of cover save

2) HT is behind cover but only 10% is obscured while a TG is in the open: less than 50% of unit is in cover= no cover save for unit.

3) HT is in the open while TG is in cover: Either
a) 50% of unit is in cover= entire unit granted cover save

OR

b) 50% of unit is in cover but less than 50% of MC is obscured= unit granted cover to non-MCs only

***

I don't know the right answer to this but its a good thread!

solkan wrote:As far as I can tell, Redbeard is conflating the rules for 'being in cover' and for 'cover saves'. A monstrous creature must be 50%+ in cover to be in cover. In addition, the rules state that the 50% rule takes precedence over over standing in area terrain (page 51). All of this combines to make it unusually difficult for an MC to be in cover.

What it doesn't change is how the rules for 'Units partially in cover' on page 22 are applied because they are not addressed. The rules on page 22 say that if half or more of the models in the unit are in cover, then everybody gets cover saves. The bizarre reference in the MC rules to having cover saves work the same as for vehicles doesn't change this because the rules for units of vehicles refers back to page 22 for how to work out cover saves for units of vehicles, and as a result units containing MC's work as normal:

If there's a unit with one hive tyrant and one hive guard, and the hive guard is in area terrain or otherwise in cover, that means that the hive tyrant gets a cover save where ever it is, because the hive guard is half or more of the unit and the hive guard is in cover.

Well put solkan.

Very well put Solkan, and after reading that I do agree with you and redbeard.

Drunkspleen wrote:Assuming you play that the Hive Tyrant can be picked out for shooting, then this clearly isn't an issue, he can't get a cover save from someone else when being targeted alone.

If you don't play that way, then as long as 50% or more of the unit is considered "In Cover" the whole unit gets a cover save, so yes, he can then get a save from his Tyrant Guards.

But this is also a crux of the issue. I haven't read the codex yet or played it yet. Do the tyrant guard somehow keep the Tyrant from being picked out as he is a MC, and MC in a unit of non-MCs can be still picked out (I think this is an issue with scarabs for the necrons)? As I see it, the tyrant is on his own if he can be singled out and would not benefit from the unit's cover.

Padixon - no, that is not correct

MC *ICs* can be picked out of units, however that is the only allowance for doing so - the usual rules are yuou may never pick someone out of a unit.

As the HT is NOT an IC, he just *joins* the unit as an IC, he cannot be picked out?

nosferatu1001 wrote:As the HT is NOT an IC, he just *joins* the unit as an IC, he cannot be picked out?

Correct.