Karskin & Stormtroopers

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**Excessionary**

why does no IG ever use either ?

**statu**

I wouldn't say that no one who plays IG takes them

**Excessionary**

well whenever i read BR no one does :( thinking of staring IG and just wondering why as the models are quality

**Chec Eu**

I spent £30 on the box of 10 and an extra £6 on the extra heavy weapons. I've used them a few times in matches and every time they've gotten 1-2 turns of shooting before being wiped out by shooting or blobbed by CC units. I dunno whether it was £36 quid well spent, but the models do look kick ass

**Excessionary**

Chec Eu wrote:I spent £30 on the box of 10 and an extra £6 on the extra heavy weapons. I've used them a few times in matches and every time they've gotten 1-2 turns of shooting before being wiped out by shooting or blobbed by CC units. I dunno whether it was £36 quid well spent, but the models do look kick ass

cool (: what kind of stuff can you kill with them then

**murdog**

Stormies get no love, but I think the flexibility of their Special Operations is pretty fun to play with. I think they can be tooled up to do certain jobs well, but that they are a support unit, and you have to keep their numbers low in proportion to the army. They may not 'make their points back' every game, but they have the potential to help seize some initiative on the battlefield, and can be equipped to be a threat to anything. They are just so expensive and squishy, and the vets can take more weapons for way less anyways, for most people it puts them way down in priority when building a list.

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They could be used to deepstrike plasma or melta, or outflank a chimera onto the field. They could be used like a forward screen or to contest a far objective, or occupy a critical piece of terrain, or as a multipurpose reserve. I think plasma is the best all-around weapon for them, and that with it they could really take advantage of the fact you choose the Special Operation after knowing opponent/terrain/mission to bring it to bear precisely wear you need it.

**iamthecougar**

I always liked the idea of deepstriking them and having them double tap a small squad of marines or something it always seemed like a solid suicide squad that actually has the potential to survive a few things.

**Chec Eu**

iamthecougar wrote:I always liked the idea of deepstriking them and having them double tap a small squad of marines or something it always seemed like a solid suicide squad that actually has the potential to survive a few things.

This is what they do, but not necessarily deep striking. They're also good for flanking and with the melta and plasma gun in the squad they can munch through rear armour or a HQ before being promptly flattened

**Excessionary**

:/ sounds like they take a beating how many points on average for a 10 man squad Sarge melta n plasma?

**Chec Eu**

They do take a beating indeed, i only use 5 man squads with melta and plasma. They usually kill what i set them on or cause them massive damage. Lets say they can easily take out a dreadnought and they are 110 points themselves.

**Kazerkinelite**

I use Stormies with meltas in my game against my usual opponent who plays CSM. They are great for deepstriking right behind his big land raider and rolling 2D6 for armor pen...seems to be my only way to kill the Land Raider at this point.

**Granesh**

The Stormtroopers are kinda a mixed bag. On one hand, S3 AP3 hellguns are excellent against power armour, and their deep-striking is nice. However, they're elites, and the aspect of them as a suicide squad hurts once you get to KP games. As for the models, they Kasrkin and the Storm Troopers are excellent, but all metal and the price keep me away from them.

**Excessionary**

Cheers for the info guys and all metal doesnt leave me much room for conversion me thinks

**FoxPhoenix135**

No, but you can make your own with a box of Cadian Shocktroops and some greenstuff... I've seen very nice conversions done up for them. Just get some aftermarket heads with gasmasks and such, like from Pig Iron, and go to town.

My stormtroopers are used in casual games only, because they just don't do as much as I'd like them to. Veterans are cheaper to start, and can have more special weaponry.

**warboss**

they're a nice suicide squad but i only use them in large games (1850-2000pts); anything less than that and i depend on my 3 veteran squads instead. people generally think they suck so tend to discount them and not prepare for their arrival via rerollable deepstrike. the few times i have fielded them, i've deepstruck next to a valuable unit *behind* cover (but not in it) and rapid fired those marines to uselessness. they're great for taking out that annoying devastator squad that keeps stunning your tanks from the safety of a wall in the enemy deployment zone. the problems i have with them is that they're overcosted (they're more per guy than tact marines) and can't use alot of the benefits of the normal IG army (orders and voxes) due to their typical deployment (for me) so far away from my officers.

**Excessionary**

Yee wad thinking of using some pig iron stuff for them aswell (: cool cool sound like enemy heavy supprt killers orr MEQ

**Kazerkinelite**

Yeah I really hate metal models thats why I made my own storm troopers. Pig Iron heads, SM Scout legs, shock troopers torso's(with belts cut off sense the scouts legs have belts alrdy), and few other random bits.

**murdog**

Nice.

**FoxPhoenix135**

Gotta love the pig iron heads. I like how you added a bayonet sheath on his boot, it really adds flavor.

Another potential use for them are valkyrie riders: with their precision rerolls on deepstrikes, they can land precisely where you want them to when making a grav-cute deployment.

**Lt Lathrop**

First and foremost is the price of the models.

Second off, Storm Troopers are expensive point wise. Consider this: a 5 man squad of troopers costs 85pts. For the same cost you could get a 10 man squad of vets, with the same BS4, and a heavy weapon (or two special weapons). On top of that, vets are scoring units, storm troopers are not.

The only major advantage to storm troopers is obvious, AP3. Which makes troopers good at one thing: anti-MEQ. If you want to take troopers to fight SM or Necrons, I would have no problem with it. Problem there is that they are still a pretty expensive squad, with only 5 men. So you need to up them to a 10 man squad, which jumps you up 165pts. At this point, they do about 4 and a half wound to SMs per turn. That isn't bad. If you add 2 plasma guns, they do about 5 and a half wounds. Two plamsa however, bump you up to 195pts. For this many points, you could get a vets squad with plasma, and a transport, and still have points left over. You could get a leman russ, with S8 AP3, and still have points over. Deepstrike or not, the Russ has a lot more range than the troopers do, and it has Av14.

Basically the general idea is that anything troopers can do, vets can do cheaper... and in most cases... better. And in most of these situations, a tank could do it better than the vets, and for even more cheaper-er.

**murdog**

Lt, you don't put any weight to their Special Operations? The flexibility of choosing after you know opponent/terrain/mission? The flexibility that lets you put them pretty close to where they need to be to have maximum impact? I agree that they are expensive, and vets can get the same and more weapons, but don't you think there is something to be said for their mobility, which gives them a chance to throw the enemy off his game? It's not as easily quantified as mathhammering the numbers, but...

**Lt Lathrop**

Reconnaissance. Gives scouts, and move through cover. This is gak, because with deep strike you can land anywhere you want comming from reserve... and if you have another option to take infiltrators, you can start wherever you want... you don't need to scout move there. Move through cover is over rated, and if you drop into position, you shouldn't need to move much anyway.

Airborne Assault. Reroll scatter dice for Deep Strike. Don't need it. You can infiltrate with the 3rd option, so you don't have to deep strike if you don't want to.

Behind Enemy Lines, gives you infiltrate, and pinning on their first shooting. SMs can't be pinned, so that's stupid. Infiltrate is fine... except for this fact:

All of these options are garbage in light of the fact vets can do the same job, for half the price... and have 3 special weapons instead of 2. On top of that, they can take a Chimera, and still be cheaper to field than a squad of Troopers, that makes them significantly harder to kill... and gives them a safe place to fire from. Not to mention the fact that the Chimera itself has some impressive options on it. Furthermore, the Chimera can be used more than once, infiltrate and deep strike are nice... but if their target moves out of range... they are gak out of luck. A Chimera doesn't have that problem. Also vets in a chimera are scoring units. Vets can take a heavy weapon and fire that from the chimera too. Vets can also take their variation of "special operations" that actually help in combat.

**A-P**

The Stormtoopers pay a premium for their vaunted AP3 ability. Cool, you can pop MEQs. There is a small problem however: the weapon is only S3. In an environment where the majority of MEQs are T4, you need 5´s to wound. Add Cover saves to the equation and the Glory Boys really start to struggle for a place.

**murdog**

Lt Lathrop wrote:Reconnaissance. Gives scouts, and move through cover. This is gak, because with deep strike you can land anywhere you want comming from reserve... and if you have another option to take infiltrators, you can start wherever you want... you don't need to scout move there. Move through cover is over rated, and if you drop into position, you shouldn't need to move much anyway.

Airborne Assault. Reroll scatter dice for Deep Strike. Don't need it. You can infiltrate with the 3rd option, so you don't have to deep strike if you don't want to.

Behind Enemy Lines, gives you infiltrate, and pinning on their first shooting. SMs can't be pinned, so that's stupid. Infiltrate is fine... except for this fact:

All of these options are garbage in light of the fact vets can do the same job, for half the price... and have 3 special weapons instead of 2. On top of that, they can take a Chimera, and still be cheaper to field than a squad of Troopers, that makes them significantly harder to kill... and gives them a safe place to fire from. Not to mention the fact that the Chimera itself has some impressive options on it. Furthermore, the Chimera can be used more than once, infiltrate and deep strike are nice... but if their target moves out of range... they are gak out of luck. A Chimera doesn't have that problem. Also vets in a chimera are scoring units. Vets can take a heavy weapon and fire that from the chimera too. Vets can also take their variation of "special operations" that actually help in combat.[/quote

I just don't think that saying 'vets can do the same job' is really accurate. Vets can take the same weapons, plus more, and at half the cost of each man - I'm not going argue that for pure firepower (ie. getting weapons on the field) the vets are superior. I'm not going to argue that scoring isn't a major factor. I'm not going to argue that ST's are all-around better than Vets - clearly they are not. But Vets can't deepstrike, outflank, or infiltrate - they can't do those jobs. ST's can take a chimera too, and can outflank it, which the vets cannot (except Harker). I think comparing Deepstrike to Infiltrate is like comparing apples and oranges. Depending on terrain/mission/opponent, one choice will be more advantageous than the other. You can't infliltrate 6 inches away from your target, and you can't deepstrike first turn. Just because SM's can't be pinned, doesn't mean other armies can't. You get to choose Spec. Ops after knowing your opponent. I agree that Recon is the weakest choice, but I think that depending on terrain/mission/opponent, it could be useful at times, especially as it is the only selection that has no randomness involved (ie. pinning/deepstriking). I'm not saying field armies of ST's. I just think you dismiss them too easily. They add some flexibility, some sneakyness, and some initiative to the Guard, and imho that counts for something, and therefore I can't just label them 'garbage'.

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Still suck at using quotes - do you have to submit the quote and then edit it so that you're comments don't get subsumed into it? I'm pretty technically challenged...

**Lt Lathrop**

You have to put /quote at the end of each of your quotes.

It should look like this:

If you want to put a quote in a quote, you just do this:

As for my response to your point. Why would you want to deepstrike inside 6"? Stormtroopers are not a melee option, there is no good reason to ever be that close. Futhermore, you can give any vets squad you want scouts via Creed and outflank... for the same point cost at storm troopers... except you also get Creed, who has other bonuses too. Deepstrike and infiltrate are overrated. A chimera can move in 12" from your board edge, and with scouts it could do this before turn 1. Since you never want to get too close to your enemy with IG, you don't need any more movement than that. If you wanted to go for pure mobility, you could take a Valk or Vend, which already have scouts and can move TWO FEET before turn 1. Now this option is slightly more expensive than going with storm troopers, but you get a vehicle out of it, which quite an impressive payload... on top of this it allows your vets to deep strike. So you can actually deep strike and outflank with vets, and for about the same cost as troopers, except that you get an extra vehicle or Creed with the points you are spending. So you can take storm troopers that are junk and expensive... or you can take vets, and if you really need to outflank or deepstrike... then you can take the same number of points and get Vets and Creed, or Vets and a Valkyrie.

In another lifetime they were probably good. But in this edition, with the other numerous options available to our army... they are simply too expensive when there are plenty of more point efficient options available.

And frankly in most of these situations, Vets wouldn't be my choice to replace the Troopers. I would more likely replace them with a Russ, or a Manticore, or some other vehicle that would do the job significantly better, at range, with armor, for far fewer points.

**Droofus**

I sometimes take a pair of minimum sized, dual meltas, airborne assault squads. 105 points

Usually you have to sacrifice a Company Command or a scoring veterans unit to get rid of a dang land raider*. Mainly because what climbs out of the rubble is usually very unhealthy for guardsmen.

And heck, if that CCS or vet squad is trundling across the table in a chimera, then its likely they won't even get close to the raider*.

Stormtroopers have the advantage of not being shot at before they deliver their melta shots.

*Replace land raider with any high AV enemy unit that you face - hammerheads, battlewagons, russes, etc.

**Lasfiredoesn'thurt**

I have to say,I totally agree with droof.

Stormtroopers are simply not meant to be taken in squads of ten. They, unlike every other infantry unit in the guard codex, are a surgical tool, not a sledge hammer.

Stormtroopers are your Ace in the Hole so to speak,They shouldnt form the backbone of your fire base or your strategy. What they do do effecitively though is add an element of surprise that few other units can offer a guard player.

For example, if im playing a guard player and he has 2 vendettas with melta-vets on the board, I know without any shadow of a doubt that they'll be headed for my armor component on turn one. However, the stormtroopers can strike without warning, anywhere, anytime and equipped with 2 melta guns a squad of five only needs one turn to get the job done. They don't need to survive any longer than that.

That being said, i don't think stormtroopers are really a wise choice in low point games. Maybe in a 2000 point army a player can sacrifice 210 points to kit out two five men squads with meltas in order to seriously mess up their opponents day. But in most eventualities vets are definitely better at what they do for less.

Stormies arn't useless or broken, they're a surgical strike that must be carried out perfectly and used where it will hurt your opponent the most before they are unceremoniously mown down by return fire.

-Lasfire

**murdog**

Lt Lathrop wrote:You have to put /quote at the end of each of your quotes.

Tx!

Lt Lathrop wrote:Why would you want to deepstrike inside 6"? Stormtroopers are not a melee option, there is no good reason to ever be that close.

My reason would be the extra D6 for the melta pen.

Lt Lathrop wrote:So you can take storm troopers that are junk and expensive... or you can take vets, and if you really need to outflank or deepstrike... then you can take the same number of points and get Vets and Creed, or Vets and a Valkyrie.

But you miss the point of the tactical flexibility of choosing the SO after knowing terrain/opponent/mission. A full squad with plasma has alot of options to help make some early gains, damage and positioning-wise. Valks are valks, they have to fly their vets to melta position every time. Creed can only outflank, and only one unit.

Lt Lathrop wrote:In another lifetime they were probably good. But in this edition, with the other numerous options available to our army... they are simply too expensive when there are plenty of more point efficient options available.

And frankly in most of these situations, Vets wouldn't be my choice to replace the Troopers. I would more likely replace them with a Russ, or a Manticore, or some other vehicle that would do the job significantly better, at range, with armor, for far fewer points.

Again you are narrowly focused on firepower. Tanks and artillery are two of the foundations of Guard, and you can build an army around heavy support, but not elites. But they are more expensive, depending on how you equip the ST's. A Russ almost 50% more expensive than 5 ST's with 2xMG, less likely to take out AV14, and can't do anything about hidden artillery.

**Tarval**

Two melta guns is not going to say good buy tank all the time. The issue is that though you have bs four its still going to fail and when it does that just it. They are not dead in the water and with some of the new dex coming out like nids and such. Your going to need a stronger punch than two melta guns.

**Lt Lathrop**

Just finished up my apoc game, Vendettas with Vets and plasma/melta is hell for Nid MCs, but it was all about the vendetta's. As soon as those troopers hit the sand, they were toast, I still feel like the troopers are too expsnive for a suicide squad... however I might actually take the 5man squads for tank hunting. We will have to see. I have been looking for an excuse to get some Kasrkins, and this might be a semi-decent one.