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Hi guys,

I thought I might as well just jump straight in the deep end after just joining and submit a 750 pt starter list of space marines (home-made chapter - will include fluff later on, still working on it).

Anyway, the regular group plays more to fluff rather than tournie style of play, so I won't be offended if you want to fully pick it apart! (because i will expand it later on anyway)

So, here it is...

--------
HQ
Captain in Terminator Armour, Twin LC and IronH

Elite
x5 Sternguard - (x1 has combi-melta)
Drop Pod

Troop
Tac Squad. x4 Marines x1 Sgt with BP + CS
Twin Las Razorback

Tac Squad. x4 Marines x1 Sgt with BP + CS + Meltabombs
Twin Hvy Bolter Razorback + Hunter Killer Missile

Hvy Support
Pred with Autocannon + Lascannon side sponsons
--------

Feel free to rip it up or praise it. I kinda have a bit of a theme going with anti-tank redundancy in all squads/vehicles... maybe it's a bit of overkill in that dept?

I hope it'll lay waste to MEQ armies, but will struggle big-time with hordes.

If you want to check out the opposing armies you can check them in our battle report http://eyeforterror.com/?p=81.

Look forward to hearing your replies!

Which unit would the Captain stay in? A solo MEQ HQ die very fast.

More men and more combi-melta for sternguards. You want to get back their costs buy hunting down some big guy the first time, don't you?

Tacs should be given special weapons.

Indeed indeed.

Actually the solo HQ brings up a good point. I did have an idea to dump him in with sternguard but he wouldn't be doing much while they shoot away (maybe handy if they get charged or something? dunno).

Using these guys will be my first foray into 40k after 10yrs out of the game (a lot has changed since 2nd ed!!), so am still quite a n00b.

Where to expand from this? I was leaning towards devastators or maybe another full tac sqd to boost the numbers already there...?

A librarian with termie armor and that doom warp thingy, would be quite effective i think as a substitute for your captain.

Its focus on short range offense really meshes well with the similar foci of the sternguard you'd be equipping it with, and the doom's str 10 ap 1 would go a long ways towards filing your needed anti-tank role, not to mention being the doom of MEQ and their heavies.

A librarian with "Gate of infinity" would be good friend of sternguards.

yeah could switch them over. Would be handy being able to nullify/counter any psykers the others throw my way.

my list is exactly on 750 pts though. I don't have the codex with me atm, but may have to drop some gear to use him...

thoughts?

You could keep your list the same as you had it and switch to a Lib for almost the same cost 5 pts cheaper then your commander all decked out and then you could put another combi-melta in your stern list with lib would be as such. (Kept your list alot like your core didnt want to change to much just give you a idea.) I think smite and force dome are the best for your current game and fits fluff as i didnt want to make a murder list and you just wipe others out lol. but giving your stern guard a 5+ inv should be a match for others now and gave you 2 combi-meltas. hope this helps.

HQ :150

Libarian: 150
Epistolary
Powers
(Smite, Force Dome)

Elite 170

5 Sternguard: 170
(x2 has combi-melta)
Drop Pod

Troop 310

Tac Squad: 165
x4 Marines x1 Sgt with BP + CS
Twin Las Razorback

Tac Squad. 145
x4 Marines x1 Sgt with BP + CS + Meltabombs
Twin Hvy Bolter Razorback + Hunter Killer Missile

Hvy Support : 120
Predator: 120
Autocannon + Lascannon side sponsons

total: 750

very cool. I like how you fit it in. The Lib in power armour yeah? (not that it matters with how we play...in fact the worse the list the more it's a challenge and the more I can gloat when i win mwhaha)

so what next for expansion? i would say we will jump up to 1000pts, then 1500 or something. We will more than likely have at least one of everything so we can chop and change. About to start a campaign...

I would prefer to add units to keep the whole force balanced as it expands, maybe get one shooting element then one assault then one support and keep building up..

People are too nice when comes to discussing army lists, i am one of those evil people who enjoy ripping up your original list.

1. First thing you need is lots more bodies your army is too fluffy with all these sergeants
2. Better anti heavy support
3. Terminators are very good against MEQ's especially thousand sons as the AP3 will not hurt them

I do not have a space marine codex on me at the moment so I will estimate a 750 pts army
IMO this is a better list

Captain (Terminator armour, your choice of weapons)

5 terminators (heavy flamer, chain fist, captain joins this squad which deep strikes in)

10 Tac marines (2x melta gun) Rhino

10 Tac marines (2x Plasma) Rhino

Predator (TL lascannon, heavy bolters)

Lightning234 wrote:People are too nice when comes to discussing army lists, i am one of those evil people who enjoy ripping up your original list.

1. First thing you need is lots more bodies your army is too fluffy with all these sergeants
2. Better anti heavy support
3. Terminators are very good against MEQ's especially thousand sons as the AP3 will not hurt them

I do not have a space marine codex on me at the moment so I will estimate a 750 pts army
IMO this is a better list

Captain (Terminator armour, your choice of weapons)

5 terminators (heavy flamer, chain fist, captain joins this squad which deep strikes in)

10 Tac marines (2x melta gun) Rhino

10 Tac marines (2x Plasma) Rhino

Predator (TL lascannon, heavy bolters)

I disagree with your assesment.

Anti heavy-tank wont be a large issue in 750 point games.
Terminators are good, but deepstriking them in is not, the chance of mishaping and losing the only punch in your army is too great.
Tac squads can only get 1 special weapon.
the TL las/HB pattern pred is the worst for points efficiency, Either go all las (too expensive IMO) all dakka (good choice) or autocannon/las sponsons

with what you suggested you are spending 130 points on a tank that can either shoot infantry with a couple of heavy bolters and a single las shot, (wasted las shot) or shoot a tank with a single lascannon shot and waste your heavy bolters.
for 120 points you can get a tank that gets 2 lascannons, for better anti-tank damage potential, along with the S7 autocannon for light vehicles, and shooting heavy infantry (such as terminators) is more effective becase there is fewer wounds that could be allocated to negate the lascannons AP2 usefulness.

Lightning234 wrote:

3. Terminators are very good against MEQ's especially thousand sons as the AP3 will not hurt them

I also have to intercede. The 1ksons player is screwed, regardless. 750 points is basically spitting in our face, why he is playing 1k at that point cost is scary (especially if he is as fluffy as you are, meaning hes dropping 306pts per Troops choice with Doombolt and no meltabombs etc)

The most powerful thing you could bring for the points in the "tourny" you seem to be explaining would be a Vindicator, IMO. Wolves have range with longfangs yeah, but if they are playing hide and seek, you can rhino rush objectives and basically hold your ground, the Vindi can coverride its way to a safe point to literally step on any and all opposition, especially the eldar (which actually, you might be better off taking an Autocannon dread) You'd make your points back dropping the Razorbacks for normal rhinos, and erasing the Pred.

Again, cross your fingers for the 1ksons being matched against you... there is practically NOTHING we can do with 750 points... (Thats why I have the Dark Eldar in the trunk...)

LOL i think he is trying to stick to the fluff and using terminators (it is also unwise inless you Pod them) in such a small game wouldn't happen i mean Terminators are rare and the chapters best. Inless it was the chapters first company in which they are all terminators but then again i have never read about a chapters first company in a skirmish (not saying it doesnt happen but to use such assets in a skirmish is unwise) in less it was a all out assault on a planet or some other hard-point. And fluff wise i have never read about the Autocannon side sponsors lascannon predators (is there a nickname for this set-up if not one needs to be made) in any fluff from any chapter not saying they dont just saying it is a un-common setup for a predator. And also if he makes a competitive list and brings it to a Fluff off, i can tell you what will happen alot of pissed off RP players Hints (Wolf Lord, Chaos Lord, and a Eldar Farseer) and he'll ruin the night as his army will lay waste to them. Its hard to build a Fluff army for a home chapter as the fluff can change and we dont know it. From what i saw it seems you are the closet in fluff wise to the Iron Hands (the mass use of the razorback and the predator) so thats what i am basing my builds off to help you. But fluff wise this list can fit into any of the Space Marines mechanized forces the force above would be much like the modern use of the stryker forces for the US (Fast lightly armored with some rangers (SternGuard) supporting it to eliminate enemies. Dont bring a competitive force inless they are then alot of changes would be happening. And as for increasing to 1000 pts i would agree to take a vindicator and beef up the sternguard (Just a great unit imo) or maybe add some scouts.

Well it is hard on one hand to say "check out my fluff list, what do you think?" and then say in the same sentence "any thoughts on what i could do against (insert army here)". Do I want more fluff or more power?

So the list is really "i love the models IN the list, I'm still fleshing out the FLUFF, and I kinda don't-want-to-lose-EVERY-game" sort of list (though I love a challenge). All the opinions here are valid depending on which stance you lean more towards.

The Auto-Las Pred (or 'Las-Auto'... kinda sounds german.... can i coin that term? ;p) was me thinking "I don't want twin-linked lascannons, I want TWO lascannons. The AC is an awesome all-rounder but still not in that top-tier 'anti-tank' role IMO. hence the lascannons. I'll be magnetizing the loadouts anyway so it's no problem to chop and change later...

I don't know why the 1kSons at 750pts are not that good. The bat-rep between them and the Wolves was pretty close. The only reason they lost was that he rolled an obscene amount of 1's every turn, and failed to kill a lot of things he should have quite easily. The Wolves player was sweating a few times...

@FoeHammer - I'm glad you recognized the 'stryker force' theme, it was what i was aiming for, and fits the theme quite well. Cheers!

snowman40k wrote:

I don't know why the 1kSons at 750pts are not that good. The bat-rep between them and the Wolves was pretty close. The only reason they lost was that he rolled an obscene amount of 1's every turn, and failed to kill a lot of things he should have quite easily. The Wolves player was sweating a few times...

Sounds like a classic case of the Curse of "Thousand s (Ones)"

However, if your wolves player simply brought a Rune Priest and a Land Raider, the 1ksons player would be on his knees.

Also, as a SM player you can take a Librarian with a hood and null zone to also bring the 1ksons player down with ease...

Captain (Terminator armour, your choice of weapons)

5 terminators (heavy flamer, chain fist, captain joins this squad which deep strikes in)

10 Tac marines (2x melta gun) Rhino

10 Tac marines (2x Plasma) Rhino

Predator (TL lascannon, heavy bolters)

This list would be better than yours but then this list is about 900 points and totally illegal as you can't take 2 special weapons in a squad also hte Predator is awful TL Lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons? Why would you ever take that mess of a predator?

Back to your list. You need more bodies. 750 points is very restrictive on marines. You need 2 full tac squads (205 point minimum plus wargear) and a HQ (100 point minimum) that leaves 240 points for cool stuff and upgrades.

I like the sternguard they are cool and relatively cheap. I also like the predator. But you are going to have to choose between them IMO.

Try something like this:

Libby Avenger, Gate - 100

Sternguard 4 x Comb-melta, Drop Pod - 180

Tac Squad, Multimelta, melta, Powerfist, Rhino - 235

Tac Squad, Missile Launcher, Flamer, Powerfist Razorback - 235


Or if you want to take a Tank as your big hitter:


Captain, artificer armour, lightening claw - 130 (joins tac squad)

Tac Squad, Lascannon, Plamsagun, Razorback TL Lascannons - 265

Tac squad, Lascannon, flamer, Powerfist, Razorback - 245 (Capt joins here)

Vindicator - 115

FlingitNow wrote:

totally illegal as you can't take 2 special weapons in a squad

wait... you can't take 2 melta or 2 plasma in a 10 man tac squad?

That means all the SM players I play with have been cheating practically every game...

wait... you can't take 2 melta or 2 plasma in a 10 man tac squad?

That means all the SM players I play with have been cheating practically every game..

No you can only take 1 special weapon, you can take a plasma cannon and plasmagun, or a multimelta and melta. It is 1 special weapon and 1 Heavy weapon.

However Chaos Space Marines and Space Wolves can take 2 special wepaons because they have no access to heavy weapons in the basic squad.

Actually CSM do have access to things like Lascannons etc. Plague marines don't and can take 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol if they so choose to.

But that is very interesting to know about standard marines... I figured you could take a Special weapon instead of a Heavy weapon (like standard CSM and Chaos Chosen). Since this is not the case however, I think I may start calling shenanigans!

Sorry I mean the Grey Hunters don't get access to heavy weapons...

Normal marines are forced into 1 spec and 1 heavy and then only in a 10 man squad. They can't swap a heavy for a spec or vice versa.

If they've been doing that then yes that is shenanigans...

The Tac squad is very restricted in the new codex.

Yea but the normal Tac marines aren't all bad they just nerfed their ability to assault as what would space wolves have then really? I mean all you need is 10 tac marines and you get a FREE Multi-Melta, Hvy bolter or the all time favorite Missile launcher. My biggest issue with Tac marines is they dont have the magic three (Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and CC) which makes them have a big disadvantage in combat vs other MEQ's its just funny every other MEQ has those 3 on troops but not the original marines (Which they all came from) and yes i know Thousand sons dont have them either but they have a 4+ inv with AP 3 shots. But Hvy weapon wise they do have a advantage cheap plasma cannons are a nice thing to have and the GK's have a semi heavy weapon the psycannon which can be fired hvy 3 i believe but comparing GK's to Tac marines is like comparing Berserker's or Plague marines to tac marines. I mean tac marines dont run around with storm bolter's, true grit, and str 6 cc weapons.

The 1kSons have a 3+ inv i thought? not 4+?, and yeah AP3 shots. He was using a daemon prince as well, and that had a good crack at the LR, but again, he seemed to attract 1's...

That lib with null zone is ridiculously evil... i love it.... though it will scream 'cheese!' if pulled in a game. I was looking at the dex last night and thought smite and GoI would go well with the lib included with the sternguard? Just drop them in, fire, smite, (hopefully survive retaliation), then GoI, fire again, smite again... repeat.

One thing that bothers me about tac sqds in general is taking a hvy weapon in them slows the whole unit down (unless defending something). Granted BP for them all, but still... maybe i should playtest more.

Nah all thousand sons have a 4+ inv and a 3+ armor save they get to pick which one to use, I dislike GoI idk im not that much of a risk taker as you can lose a guy to the warp if you roll doubles and then lose the squad to a DS mishap lol thats just to much that can go wrong in this small of a game. When i played normal marines i geared my Lib to be full offensive (avenger, Smite) and i made him a epistolary makes him a offensive beast at short range. When i play marines i always take a Multi-melta in my tac marines its free and i couldnt pass it up as i love meltas but i also played as salamanders which made it worth it cause it became Twin-linked.

hmm... then i will have to call the player on that one... he was sayin' 3+ inv saves. I just checked the CM dex then and you're right. I don't think he was shot up with anything overtly AP3 anyway... but still.

Yeah def risky using GoI with the Lib, but a lot of fun while it lasts!

Yeah def risky using GoI with the Lib, but a lot of fun while it lasts!

Fun and can be devastating. Dumping a few locator beacons around can really reduce the risks involved. Which in my lists above would mean DPing all the tac squads.

FoeHammer wrote:Nah all thousand sons have a 4+ inv and a 3+ armor save they get to pick which one to use,

Are we playing the same game? If you piece their armor with AP3, they are forced to use the invul, with null zone they have about a 1 in 4 chance. but even so not much of a huge advantage saying you can take about 2x their number for 1/2 the cost...

FoeHammer wrote:
I dislike GoI idk im not that much of a risk taker as you can lose a guy to the warp if you roll doubles and then lose the squad to a DS mishap lol thats just to much that can go wrong in this small of a game. .

Take a teleport homer in your Drop Pod. Thanks to Drop-Pod assault, the pod will come down before the Termies (or termi librarian) and keep them safe. Sure, they may kill the Pod before you get to drop, but then that is X shooting at a Drop Pod instead of your guys...

Also, yes your friend is improperly using 1ksons.

1ksons Invul = 4+
DP with MoT = 4+
Termi with MoT = 4+
Ahriman (god knows why) = 4+

Nothing in the Chaos dex has better then a 4+ invul... now Daemons of Chaos have some 3+s... And in Apoc, you get 3+ invuls with an Altar of Chaos, which gives +1 to the invul save. (btw, cheapest apoc combo ever is Fateweaver, an Altar of Chaos, and a squad of Hammer bros... 2+ invul save that you get to reroll if failed) other then that tho, standard 1ksons have poweramor (3+) their improved invul of 4+ (normal troops with Mark have 5+) Ap3 bolters and Slow and Purposeful (Remember, this makes them Relentless). You cannot upgrade them any other way (other then Sorcerer spells, Melta bomb for sorcerer, Personal Icon, and a Rhino)

@ Daemon-Archon Ren, I said 1k sons have a 4+ inv and 3+ armor save they can choose (Though choose may of been a bad word to use it is still correct as you get to choose to use it or not) , Now i was thinking he was confusing when he fires his bolters at the 1k marines and using his armor save instead of his inv which is what he was probably doing, Snowman also said his friend was using 1k sons with a 3+ inv which is non-sense . Marines dont have that many ap 3 or lower weapons so he had to be using armor saves (snowman was getting confused maybe). Now as to the drop podding issue why would you ever want to get in a shoot out with 1k sons your gonna lose as marines, forget the GOI imo plus as long as he isnt slowed it may work for the first turn then he'll quickly kill it on the field your pods are gonna be gone fast im just saying that tactic is gonna come apart homing beacons also cost 10 pts your gonna have to lose stuff. Its better for you to make the lib a close range monster or a assault lib they work so well. And if null zone is out there when you avenging wrath the 1k sons its gonna really hurt them. A 1/4 chance to save is terrible thats lower then a guardmens save who have a 1/3rd chance.

Two questions.

#1 Can you actually choose your save? For instance, Nullzone makes you reroll passed invul, say you had a 4+ invul but a 5+ cover. Can you choose to take the 5+ cover instead, so you don't have to reroll?

#2 Can you cast Avenging Wrath and Null Zone in the same turn?

As far as AP3 weaponry, Plasma, Melta, Orbital Bombardment (IIRC its Str8 AP3) Missiles, Lascannons and more fun guns help to take out the 1k. Remember, he's spending most of his points on his 2 troops choices and HQ so you really wont have many Vehicles to run into.

#1 Can you actually choose your save? For instance, Nullzone makes you reroll passed invul, say you had a 4+ invul but a 5+ cover. Can you choose to take the 5+ cover instead, so you don't have to reroll?

No you have to use the best save possible which in this case would be the 5+ I assume. depends on how you rule it.

#2 Can you cast Avenging Wrath and Null Zone in the same turn?

An Epistolary or Tiggy can.

@ Daemon-Archon Ren, as to the saves i know you have to take your armor save if possible but as for cover and Inv saves it says "you may" i see that as a choice. And as to the ap3 weaponry you forgot stern guards traitor rounds, but in his list above he has 2 lascannons and 5 stern guard but the avenging wrath and null zone would decimate the 1k sons. But compared to the all mass bolter rounds that are AP 3 from the 1k sons the marines have limited ap 3 guns.

Doesnt the 1k sons have a DP i would think that the pod unit is gonna be in trouble there as well idk all my lascannons would be focused on that big ole boy. But we have to be careful here as he is also gonna be fighting against SW and eldar. And you are gonna want that avenging wrath vs SW but then against eldar its almost useless (inless he has scorpions) your'll have to use completely different tactics. The only thing i can see you doing really is take tac squads in 10's put them in a rhino's with a PF. And take a pred as it is in the first list, and the sternguard and Lib in a rhino. I think the one drop pod is a bad idea as itll be all alone with very little support i just think anyone your'll be playing is gonna swarm or rapid fire the guys inside killing everything then turn on what you have left as itll be a ways away.

By DP do you mean Drop Pod?

If so, no, they do not have Drop pods. Thousand Sons cannot deep strike in any capacity.

If you meant Daemon Prince, they don't have any special DPs. Tzeentchen DPs are kinda annoying, but nothing particularly more scary then any other type of DP, not to mention, if he is going fluff wise, he won't have enought points for a DP of Tzeentch fully loaded... actually, he will only have enought points for a Normal Chaos Sorcerer (if he goes that route) or normal Chaos lord as 612 of his points are going towards Troops...