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Several questions that are inter-related.

1) Any rules preventing 2 Lords from being attached to a single squad?
2) If each lord was equipped with a Lightning field and attached to a single squad would the two Lightning field attacks stack?
3) If each lord was equipped with a Gaze of Flame and attached to a single squad would the two Gaze of Flame abilities stack?(-2 Leadership, opposing charging units losing 2 attacks)

As far as i know, the rulebook says you can have independent characters join each other to form powerful units, the other two I'm a bit foggy on. Gaze I'd think wouldn't stack effects but lightning field I think might as it's an ability effect, not a modifier.

NecronLord3 wrote:Several questions that are inter-related.

1) Any rules preventing 2 Lords from being attached to a single squad?
2) If each lord was equipped with a Lightning field and attached to a single squad would the two Lightning field attacks stack?
3) If each lord was equipped with a Gaze of Flame and attached to a single squad would the two Gaze of Flame abilities stack?(-2 Leadership, opposing charging units losing 2 attacks)

Well , number 1 is an obvious yes, the rulebook says you can join IC's together.

As for the other two...hmm, Lightning Field seems like it would stack, but the wording of part of the Gaze of Flame makes it sort of seem like they lose only the -1 attack, but lose 2 leadership (although, for the attacks thing, it only cancels out attacks they get for charging so unless you're going against a unit that gets more than the +1 charge bonus, it would be useless anyways)

But, what I'm wondering, is WHY would you do this? With dual lightning fields, you can "shock back" a max of 4 wounds (each lord having 1 wound left in a battle)....dual Gaze of Flames would be more usefull though. Although, if you added both lords into one unit of, say warriors, THEN dual lightning fields would be very useful (if they stack)

I never suggested joining them together. I said attached to a single unit, like two lords attached to 2-3 Wraiths or 10 Scarabs.

two lords can both attach to the same unit.

I don't think lightning field would stack, but I'm not 100% sure.

Gaze of flame only denies the bonus attack for charging, it's not a -1 attack penalty. The Leadership modifier would not stack

NecronLord3 wrote:1) Any rules preventing 2 Lords from being attached to a single squad?

No.

2) If each lord was equipped with a Lightning field and attached to a single squad would the two Lightning field attacks stack?

No. The Lightning Field acts only on wounds caused to the Necron Lord Carrying it. If one lord was wounded twice, and the other once, the unit would take 3 hits, not 6.

3) If each lord was equipped with a Gaze of Flame and attached to a single squad would the two Gaze of Flame abilities stack?(-2 Leadership, opposing charging units losing 2 attacks)

No. The Wargear says you lose your attacks for Charging, not -1A, so they unit will only lose one attack no matter what (excluding things like Blood Claws who get more than 1 attack for assaulting, they will loose all of them of course). Furthermore, the wargear says that the leadership penalty is applies to units in a close combat with "a Necron Lord", not "Every Necron Lord with a Gaze of Flame", so it will not stack.

Gwar! wrote:

2) If each lord was equipped with a Lightning field and attached to a single squad would the two Lightning field attacks stack?

No. The Lightning Field acts only on wounds caused to the Necron Lord Carrying it. If one lord was wounded twice, and the other once, the unit would take 3 hits, not 6.

Uh, I don't think so, that would mean that the lightning field is useless all the time (if it's only for wounds caused to the lord)....also, "Lightning Field: Powerful arcs of energy link the Necron Lord and any unit he has joined. For every wound inflicted on them in close combat by an enemy..." So, you do count up the total wounds, twice, and attack back (in your example, 6 attacks)

Eight Ball wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

2) If each lord was equipped with a Lightning field and attached to a single squad would the two Lightning field attacks stack?

No. The Lightning Field acts only on wounds caused to the Necron Lord Carrying it. If one lord was wounded twice, and the other once, the unit would take 3 hits, not 6.

Uh, I don't think so, that would mean that the lightning field is useless all the time (if it's only for wounds caused to the lord)....also, "Lightning Field: Powerful arcs of energy link the Necron Lord and any unit he has joined. For every wound inflicted on them in close combat by an enemy..." So, you do count up the total wounds, twice, and attack back (in your example, 6 attacks)

-Derp- I misread the rule there. In any case, nothing says they stack, so they don't.

Gwar! wrote:

Eight Ball wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

2) If each lord was equipped with a Lightning field and attached to a single squad would the two Lightning field attacks stack?

No. The Lightning Field acts only on wounds caused to the Necron Lord Carrying it. If one lord was wounded twice, and the other once, the unit would take 3 hits, not 6.

Uh, I don't think so, that would mean that the lightning field is useless all the time (if it's only for wounds caused to the lord)....also, "Lightning Field: Powerful arcs of energy link the Necron Lord and any unit he has joined. For every wound inflicted on them in close combat by an enemy..." So, you do count up the total wounds, twice, and attack back (in your example, 6 attacks)

-Derp- I misread the rule there. In any case, nothing says they stack, so they don't.

That's the same logic as nothing says they don't stack.

No, It's not. Nothing says they don't deliver 99D6 S11 hits either.

EDIT: Shoot, Qwar is right. :(

Gwar! wrote:No, It's not. Nothing says they don't deliver 99D6 S11 hits either.

So you mean to say that if both Lords have the field and wounds occur on their unit that they joined together, only one field goes off?

Gwar, I need to disagree. Each Lightning Field says exactly what it will do. There is no "stacking" going on here at all. What happens is exactly what the wargear says happens. After all other attacks are resolved each Lightning Field will take its effect. There is no stacking, its just what the wargear does.

This is similar to taking two Hive Tyrants and getting +2 to your reserve rolls. You're not actually getting a +2, you're getting +1, twice. The reason there are no rules about stacking is because nothing stacks. Things just happen multiple times.

I'm also not getting much of a clarification on this from Gwar's ruling. I fail to see why these abilities are not stacking.(I'm not disagreeing, I just don't see any rules to back it up, which is what I was looking for).

The -1 Charging attack does stack, but only against units that receive +2 attacks on the charge, but the -1 leadership and 2x Lightning field attacks don't?

The -1 to attacks on the Charge probably doesn't stack because its worded in such a way that it specifically says "This only applies to the +1 attack units get for charging, not to anything else" (that's not an exact quote). Because of this, no matter how many times you apply the penalty, it can still only get rid of one thing.

The rest of the penalties should still "work twice." I want to avoid using the specific word "stacks" because there really isn't a concept of this in the RAW. However, there is no reason why two models in the same unit with the same piece of wargear wouldn't both get to use it. The rules clearly say both Necron Lords get to use their wargear, and no rule says that two IC's with the same piece of wargear in the same unit can't both use it.

Except that the rule is entirely satisfied by you getting one lightning field - and the precedence si it has to *state* it stacks, see IG Astropaths for an example where this situation led to no stacking.

He probably thought we were talking about how if both are in the same unit, both go off as doubled of each result, 4 wounds inflicted thus two sets of 8 hits back, which clearly isn't the case.

But 4 unsaved wounds should inflict 8 attacks back on the unit which caused them.

NecronLord3 wrote:But 4 unsaved wounds should inflict 8 attacks back on the unit which caused them.

That's what I'm thinking too: 4 unsaved wounds, so EACH lightning field does 4 back (for a total of 8)

Yes it would but the term stacking could fool someone into thinking each individual result doubles. Thus the earlier confusion, but yes, from what I believe, the final amount of hits back would be x str 3 hits from each lord.

i'll also call bull on the astropath example

Those were reserve-buffs via an ability that GW decided to specifically nerf in thier FAQ (despite the fact that the same result is okay with other folks, WTF?)

As it's been discussed here, this isn't stacking. It's war gear on two different models doing their individual jobs.

Except the same argument against sta king applies in both cases - in both cases resolving one set of hits "back" fulfills the requirements for both sets of wargear, in the same was as adding 1 to your reserve rolls fulfills both astropaths requirements simultaneously.

So in other words - if it doesnt stack precedent is that it doesnt.

The Astropath example just doesn't work IMO, with this example. If the two lords were in different squads, their LF's would work. Astropaths do not work together, regardless of what squad they are in. Their ability is redundant, where as Lightning field clearly is not.

I would agree that 2 lord with LF in 1 squad would each fire off their lightngin field once.

The term "stacking" has sent this arguement off kilter a little.

It's trade off presumably. yes you benefit from firing off 2 lightnign fields...btu you are also making one unit VERY costly by chuckign in 2 lords.

I'm looking at how to make Wraith more effective. The 3 man squad just doesn't work for me. However, adding in survivability and attack bonuses from Lords, IMO makes for a fierce HQ retinue. But, I'm still not sure if it will be more effective than a C'tan.

Well, even though this is going a bit off topic:

You can't REALLY compare a C'tan to Lord+Wraiths properly. They don't do all the same roles. For example, a C'tan is a MUCH larger target than a Lord(s)+Wraiths. Also, the wraiths move A LOT faster (the group can turboboost if necessary), but, except the lord, don't have power weapons, while a C'tan gets past all saves. Of course, both options are expensive, the wraiths do have better saves, but they still die fairly easily (BUT can WBB if the whole squad isn't down), and of course, the more points you put into a not-even-that-great CC combo, the less points you have shooting/not phasing out.

So yeah, it's really dependant on who you're going against, and how the rest of your army is setup.

Of course you have to weigh the points, that is what army building is all about.

But lets compare the pro's and cons to the setup.

Lord 1- Destroyer Body, Res Orb, Phase Shifter, Warscythe =210
Lord 2- Destroyer Body, Gaze of Flame, Lightning Field, Warscythe =180
Wraiths x3 =123
Total - 513

Attacks - 15(20 on charge)
Wounds - 9
3+ Inv Save
Speed Jetbikes
Initiatives 4 and 6
-------------------------

Nightbringer (more comparable than Deceiver)=360
Attack 5(6 on charge)
Wounds 5
4+ Inv Save
Speed Infantry
Initiative 4

The Wraith Squad comes in at 153 points more but has 4 more wounds, is faster, better iniative, and has base 10 more attacks.

The Nightbringer ignores all saves, is tougher and has all the nifty C'tan abilities.

The Wraith Squad overall would be the better choice IMO. I will probably be running a Destroyer Lord with Deceiver(unless I switch to this choice) so the points cost really isn't that different. A 180 pt lord plus Deceiver comes in only 33 pts cheaper. The choice to me really comes down to making a Wraith squad viable without running a Wraith Wing army.

Honestly, this needs to be moved to tactics, not YMTC.

Just had awesome idea thanks to this, 2 Destroyer Lords w/Gaze of Flames, Lightning Field and one Res Orb w/ 3 Wraiths.

What about a stack up of Res Orbs though, would you get an re-roll if 2 Lords with Res Orbs were within 6"?

phantommaster wrote: would you get an re-roll if 2 Lords with Res Orbs were within 6"?

no.