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So for the sake of these questions just assume that you're allowed to do whatever the @%#@ you want with the Mawloc.
1. What facing of armor do you use if it comes up directly under a vehicle?
2. Do units in area terrain get a cover save?

olympia wrote:So for the sake of these questions just assume that you're allowed to do whatever the @%#@ you want with the Mawloc.
1. What facing of armor do you use if it comes up directly under a vehicle?
2. Do units in area terrain get a cover save?

1) This is covered in the Mawlocs rules, and it does not matter where it comes up, the same facing is always hit (Hint: It's the same facing hit by Close Combat attacks )
2) No. It's not a shooting attack, so you don't get cover saves.

Cover saves are defined as being taken against shooting, so no cover saves would be taken. In fluff it includes other sources (flying debris for one) but those arent rules.

I believe the Mawloc rules state vehicles are hit on rear armour, representing the underside being hit.

Gwar and Nosferatu are correct.

Agreed.

G

I stripped out the underside armour of my rhinos as soon as they got rid of mole-mortars. Bad move, it would seem.

It would seem like it would be considered a shooting attack, as it uses the blast template, and gives an ap value. Am i missing something here?

Yeah, it doesnt happen in the shooting phase. And yriels eye of wrath, the other similar weapon doesnt allow cover saves.

#2 cannot decisively be answered by the rules.

The only full casualty removal rules are found in the shooting section of the rulebook. So, by the RAW when the Mawloc causes hits at Strength 6 in the movement phase, players do what exactly?

We don't know!

If we use the shooting phase rules and convert hits into wounds and wounds into saves and unsaved wounds into casualties then we run into the problem that cover saves are also supposed to be allowed, but in this case we don't have a 'firing' model to draw line of sight from to determine if the unit is in cover or not.


So while we cannot know for sure how we are supposed to play this I think a few things are safe to assume:

1) We use the shooting phase casualty removal rules whenever possible as they are the only complete rules presented as such in the rulebook.

2) At the very least, units should always get a cover save unless the rule specifies otherwise. Now, in many cases, such as this, there may be no 'firing' model, but that doesn't mean that units that have a majority of models 'inside area terrain' or that get their cover save from another source (like a KFF) wouldn't count as being 'in cover' and therefore would definitely get a cover save.


So anyone trying to say that wounds inflicted outside of the shooting phase automatically don't benefit from cover saves is absolutely not following the RAW, as the RAW don't tell us what to do.

The words are that it deals a S6 AP (?) hit to all units under the LBT, equal to the number of models that are under the LBT in the unit. THat is NOT a large blast.

yakface wrote:
#2 cannot decisively be answered by the rules.

The only full casualty removal rules are found in the shooting section of the rulebook. So, by the RAW when the Mawloc causes hits at Strength 6 in the movement phase, players do what exactly?

We don't know!

If we use the shooting phase rules and convert hits into wounds and wounds into saves and unsaved wounds into casualties then we run into the problem that cover saves are also supposed to be allowed, but in this case we don't have a 'firing' model to draw line of sight from to determine if the unit is in cover or not.


So while we cannot know for sure how we are supposed to play this I think a few things are safe to assume:

1) We use the shooting phase casualty removal rules whenever possible as they are the only complete rules presented as such in the rulebook.

2) At the very least, units should always get a cover save unless the rule specifies otherwise. Now, in many cases, such as this, there may be no 'firing' model, but that doesn't mean that units that have a majority of models 'inside area terrain' or that get their cover save from another source (like a KFF) wouldn't count as being 'in cover' and therefore would definitely get a cover save.


So anyone trying to say that wounds inflicted outside of the shooting phase automatically don't benefit from cover saves is absolutely not following the RAW, as the RAW don't tell us what to do.

And once again, Yak shows he can read my mind.

I was just about to post a thread to discuss the topic of whether the shooting rules are only shooting rules, or are the default rules. (Since they are the only source for certain rules, like casualty removal.)

Since he presented the info and concept better than I was likely to, I no longer need to post it.

Deffkopta bigbomms happen in the movement phase, right? So no save against them either???

I thought big bombs were mentioned as a shooting attack that took place in the movement phase.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:I thought big bombs were mentioned as a shooting attack that took place in the movement phase.

"Once per game, a deffkopta with a bigbomm may make a special attack, even if it has turbo boosted that turn. place the large blast template with the central hole on a model that the deffkopta has passed over during its movement phase. The bigbomm scatters d6" and is resolved with strength 4 and ap5."

Klawz wrote:The words are that it deals a S6 AP (?) hit to all units under the LBT, equal to the number of models that are under the LBT in the unit. That is NOT a large blast.

It isn't? What is a large blast, then? Because I was under the impression that's exactly what a large blast does. . .

I guess no cover saves from kopta bombs then.

RAW fundamentalist: "No cover save from the Mawloc because it is not in the shooting phase."
Ork codex: "hurray for deff kopta big bomms"
RAW fundamentalist: "No no, clearly the intent of the big bomm is a shooting attack."
Ork codex: "pretty teeth and RAW only get you so far in life..."

Do you get cover saves for swooping hawk bomb runs?

olympia wrote:RAW fundamentalist: "No cover save from the Mawloc because it is not in the shooting phase."
Ork codex: "hurray for deff kopta big bomms"
RAW fundamentalist: "No no, clearly the intent of the big bomm is a shooting attack."
Ork codex: "pretty teeth and RAW only get you so far in life..."

olympia wrote:RAW fundamentalist: "No cover save from the Mawloc because it is not in the shooting phase."
Ork codex: "hurray for deff kopta big bomms"
RAW fundamentalist: "No no, clearly the intent of the big bomm is a shooting attack."
Ork codex: "pretty teeth and RAW only get you so far in life..."

not in the shooting phase is irrelevant, not being a shooting attack is the term you are looking for.

RAW you can only get cover saves from shooting attacks, which neither of those 2 are.
HIWPI you get cover saves from being more than 50% in area terrain or some other effect like a KFF, Stormcaller, or a Venomthrope, but not from being obscured based on LOS, as there is no actual "firer/shooting model/etc"

agnosto wrote:Do you get cover saves for swooping hawk bomb runs?

I don't have that particular codex handy; can you quote the rule?

olympia wrote:

agnosto wrote:Do you get cover saves for swooping hawk bomb runs?

I don't have that particular codex handy; can you quote the rule?

Nope, I just vaguely remember it from another thread where someone stated that since the swooping hawk...bomb packs? took place during movement... was jsut curious, I don't play eldar.

Like a big bomb but place any where on the board when the unit DS.

Tri wrote:Like a big bomb but place any where on the board when the unit DS.

So very similar to a mawloc?
If the mawloc doesn't allow cover saves then it stands to reason the swooping hawk thing doesn't either, right?

Swooping Hawk Grenade Pack: Anytime a Swooping hawk unit uses its deep strike ability, it may place a single large blast marker centered on an enemy model anywhere on the table and roll a scatter dice. If an arrow is rolled, the marker scatters d6" in the indicated direction. Work out hits and damage as normal, range: n/a S: 4 AP: 5 large blast

Well this instructs you to work out the hits and damage as normal, whatever that means. The bigbomm states that it is a special attack which is certainly not a normal attack.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:I guess no cover saves from kopta bombs then.

But, since casualty removal rules are in the Shooting Phase, does that mean no models are ever removed as casualties?

This is one of the many reasons I hate the new Tyranid codex.

Which is exactly the point Yak (and now I) was making.

If you are strict that everything in the shooting rules only applies to shooting attacks, it really causes issues with things like cover saves *and* casualty removal and wound allocation.

the location in the rulebook has very little to no bearing on the application of the rules.

The wording of the rules are specific and relatively consistant that cover saves may only be taken against shooting attacks.

the location of the cover save rules is a red herring in this arguement.

Why bother to say cover saves may not be taken against wounds cause in close combat? I mean if you can only take cover saves against shooting attacks then whats the point? The answer is simple Cover saves may be taken against any wound unless there is a rule negating it.