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I find myself doing something weird.

At some point, I want to start a marine army, and I'm starting to write lists (1500 points for now), but no matter what kind of list I write, I find that it's about the same in at least one regard, there are around 30 MEQs in it. Wheather it be captain+a few elites and a few marines elsewhere, 30 tactical marines, 30 grey hunters, the only one that didn't have 30 marines was the "Pure Grey Knights" list I had written up (it had 15 MEQs....probably because grey knights cost twice as much as most marines)

Is 30 marines enough? Or too much? Should my MEQs be troops only, or can I afford to have MEQs in my fast attack and whatnot?

What do you say Dakka? Is 30 SM/SW/BA/DA/CSM/NM/KB/PAGK (ect.) enough, or too much?

Personally, I think you need 10 scoring MEQs for every 500 points to be competitive with Marines. For me, at 1500 points I wouldn't take less than 3 full tactical squads.

For Vanilla Marines, I think 3 Tacticals at 1500 and above is a solid core. Any less than that and multi-objective missions leave you troop thin and take any more than that and you don't have enough killing power.

As for the other slots, that depends on the army. Personally, I think with the exception of possibly SG, Bikes, and Assault Terminators, SM vehicles > SM Infantry.

Personally, unless you're trying to do a SM horde army, I'd say that 3 10 man TAC squads is about as much as you should take in a 1500 point game. Much more than that and you start impinging on points that would be better spent on the more elite units in the codex.

You want all those 30 meqs to be scoring units.
3 full tac squads, each equipped with their free ML will not only hold objectives well, but give you some anti-vehicle power

I would say try and have 3 troops open to take objectives.

I have a 1500 point mech army with 15 marines that works fine. 5 guys in a razorback with a las/plasma turret is a really effective unit. With 30 marines, you could have six of them.

Imo, 15 scoring MEQs is a tad low for 1500pts, 20 is fine and 30 too much.

if you look in the army list segment i have a grey knight army with 28 knights at 15k

My Grey Knight list has 35 Grey Knights in it with points left over for a Dakka dred and a LR

Grey Templar wrote:My Grey Knight list has 35 Grey Knights in it with points left over for a Dakka dred and a LR

Sounds closer to 1850, but that seems about right.

So, basicly, for 1500 points, 30 tactical marines is a good core (or 30 CSM or Grey Hunters or even Grey Knights), but say, 20 tacticals and 10 assault is not ok. (Unless they are blood angels) I'll keep that in mind.

I'm going to disagree here. 3X10-man tac squads is a minimum 510 points with no transport or upgrades. Give them anything useful to use, and you're looking at between 550-600+ points for tac marines. At 1850, or even 1750, that's probably okay. But at 1500 that's over 1/3 of your army's value in three units with very little firepower and moderate offensive/defensive capability.

There are better options:
-Take two full tac squads and spend the leftover points on something fast, like vehicles/speeders, that can contest objectives or score you KPs when they move & shoot.
-If you feel like you need another scoring unit, small units of scouts with camo cloaks are cheaper than tac marines, nearly as durable, and able to carry heavy weapons & rifles at less than 10 models.
-5 guys in a razorback with a 35 point weapon upgrade is cheaper, has the same/more firepower than a full tac squad, can move and shoot, and is a scoring unit. Who cares that there are only 5 guys--they never get shot at or assaulted anyway, so they don't need the other 5 guys to act as expensive ablative wounds.

At the end of the day, it's not so much about the number of MEQ bodies as it is about the number of scoring units, how mobile and shooty they are, and how much efficiency you can pack into cheap squads.

starbomber109 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:My Grey Knight list has 35 Grey Knights in it with points left over for a Dakka dred and a LR

Sounds closer to 1850, but that seems about right.

So, basicly, for 1500 points, 30 tactical marines is a good core (or 30 CSM or Grey Hunters or even Grey Knights), but say, 20 tacticals and 10 assault is not ok. (Unless they are blood angels) I'll keep that in mind.

It actually is a 1500 point list.


back on topic.

Yes i agree with Infernius. 2 maxed out Tactical squads as battle line troops. Scouts with sniper rifles and cloaks are perfect for sitting on an objective.

the enemy often forgets about them and remembers only after its too late. 75 points for some useful long range pinning and anti-MC weapons is better then 90 points of bolter caddies who can't hurt high toughness models without upgrades.

2x tac squad in 1500 is plenty. That is up to 4 scoring units, more than most other armies.

Gornall wrote:For Vanilla Marines, I think 3 Tacticals at 1500 and above is a solid core. Any less than that and multi-objective missions leave you troop thin and take any more than that and you don't have enough killing power.

As for the other slots, that depends on the army. Personally, I think with the exception of possibly SG, Bikes, and Assault Terminators, SM vehicles > SM Infantry.

I think this is a really good post.

No.
SM vehicles<SM Infantry
Space Marine Vehicles are like massive blocks of wood with massive target signs on their armor. >

Asherian Command wrote:No.
SM vehicles<SM Infantry
Space Marine Vehicles are like massive blocks of wood with massive target signs on their armor. >

90% of the ranged weapons in the game are str4 or less. That means 90% of the ranged weapons in the game can't hurt a rhino on the front or sides. Who cares if it's a target when you can't hurt it?

I recently had a game where I drove some razorbacks 12" through the middle of crowds of genestealers & termagants to seize objectives in the last turn. The stealers were not able to harm the vehicles (they didn't get lucky on their rending rolls) and the termagants, without synapse, broke and fell back off the board without me having to fire a shot . I'd like to see you do that with infantry.


In 4th edition, vehicles were weak. Now I typically don't lose more than 2-3 of my 14 vehicles (at 1500 points) per game.

I usually take 3 tac squads. Come on, people, they are the best troops in the game! One thing I'm trying is the captain on bike + bike squads as troops. Its a points heavy loadout, but bikers are tough and can have good loadouts. I like it.

I think three full sized squads of marines is right for 1500-1850 pts.

Tac marines are not the best troop in the game by far - that's only in the fluff

Bikers on the other hand are very good when fielded as troops

they can have what 8 models per squad max and one can be IDed.

true they can take 2 special weapons(one of only 2 SM units that can) making them good tank or MEQ hunters and they can take a heavy weapon that can move and shoot.


An All bike army might be strong, but as a part of an army i think they are a very niche role.



TAC squads FTW

Preference wars! Go!

I think bikers can work decently in a varied army too, but the buy-in of a 160+ captain is steep to just include one, so that makes them more viable as an army. They have a ton of extras over tactical marines that makes them much better in offensive output.

Tactical Marines have little offensive output compared to most other units in the codex, they are decently resilient, and they are made to HOLD objectives while the rest of the army TAKES the objectives. As said before, if you spend the pts on 3 tactical squads in 1500pts, you will have very little to actually do any damage. I've yet to see a very successfull list that uses more than 2 tac squads (at <1750)

Personally, I run two 10-man squads and one 5-man squad in my Dark Angels, but am happy running 30+ MEQ in my footslogging Space Wolves with at least 20 being Grey Hunters - even at 1500, I run 20-30 Grey Hunters and 6-12 Long Fangs, plus Wolf Guard split across the units.

27 bikers...it may be more unhealthy, but "Say no to Metal Boxes!!!"

I like to have a few more troops. You can always use a tac unit broken into in 2 razerbacks for scoring. Stuff happens. I have lost a 10 man unit to a lucky laser shot and a few unlucky rolls and you lose 1/2 of your scoring units. 2 1/2 scoring units?

Three full sized tactical squads at 1500 points is a waste, at least in my opinion. You're paying 600-650 points for three unit that sucks at CC, suck at long range shooting, and are only marginally good at taking out horde. Tactical squads are a support unit at best, why take more than is absolutely necessary? I'd rather stock up on units that can actually kills things.

Units like Grey Hunters are a different matter all together. With access to multiple special weapons, 2 base attacks and counter attack, I'd stock up on as many as I reasonably could.

unbeliever87 wrote:Three full sized tactical squads at 1500 points is a waste, at least in my opinion. You're paying 600-650 points for three unit that sucks at CC, suck at long range shooting, and are only marginally good at taking out horde. Tactical squads are a support unit at best, why take more than is absolutely necessary? I'd rather stock up on units that can actually kills things.

Units like Grey Hunters are a different matter all together. With access to multiple special weapons, 2 base attacks and counter attack, I'd stock up on as many as I reasonably could.

But he is not playing Space Puppies, is he? So that really isn't relevant. If the game revolved around only killing things rather than taking objectives (66% of games in the standard rulebook are objective based) then I would agree with you.

3 Tactical squads is the minimum I try to meet in any game I play with space marines. Sure, two squads can combat out to 4, but those combat squads are only 5 models. That isn't many models for holding an objective (even 3+ save models). One decently aimed small blast from a plasma cannon and they could all be toast. I like to keep them a bit beefier than that, for that reason.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:One decently aimed small blast from a plasma cannon and they could all be toast. I like to keep them a bit beefier than that, for that reason.

Not if they're in a razorback. Then that well-placed plasma cannon will do nothing 2/3 of the time (and nothing another 1/6 if the razor has cover).

That's the whole point. 5 guys in a razorback do a stellar job of holding an objective--much better than 5 or even 10 guys in the open.

True, razorback spam is good for that, but I prefer rhino spam so that those squads have more survivability AFTER the rhino has popped. My meta is used to mech-IG, so they are used to having plenty of transport-popping weapons.