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Ok, in a tournament today, I was playing Dash-of-Pepper. Good game, good guy, but a question did arise.


Now, to preface, before this game, I wouldn't have questioned this process, however I had never seen it in action. When I did see it, it looked and felt so wrong, that I questioned it. Now, it wasn't worth arguing over, so I let it go, but I did mention it.


Here is the question;


Can you place the narrow end of the Flamer template on the front edge of a Deff Rolla, and flame a unit? If so, then I would have to assume you can model your Grabbing Klaw to stick out 90 degrees from the wagon at a Right angle, and then place the narrow end of the Flamer Template on the edge of the Klaw. Also, since you can deploy 2 inches from the edge of a Deffrolla, then you also can deploy 2 inches from the very tip of a Grabbing Klaw?

If I knew how to post a picture here from Vassal to show you exactly what I mean, then I would, someone else will have to do that, and Dash can chime in as needed.


Thanks,


Clay

I think its strictly from the hull where firing is measured from. Look at it this way. Was the deffrolla counted when it came to shooting at his wagon? If only the rolla was in range would it have been hit?

I'm not asking for an unfair advantage when shooting at a BW, or when the other guy moves it or anything else. I am asking that if the Deffrolla is considerd part of the "hull" and as open topped you can fire from the edge of it, then you must also count other wargear bought the same way.


I also play Orks, so again, not looking to screw the Orks over here, just looking for some insight.



Clay

Thats what im saying. I dont think it works because, if I measure range and only have the deff rolla I am not in range of the wagon? So if I try shooting a melta gun at it and am only within 6 of the rolla, not the hull, I dont get the bonus. By extent then he shouldnt be able to measure range from it.

The question to ask is what is considered the hull of a Battlewagon.

Here is a wikipedia answer on a hull for an armoured vehicle-

A armoured fighting vehicle's chassis (hull) comprises the bottom part of the AFV, which includes the tracks, engine, driver's seat, and crew compartment. This describes the lower hull, although common usage of might include the upper hull to mean the AFV without the turret. Chassis often serve as basis for platforms on tanks, armored personnel carriers, combat engineering vehicles, etc.

Now GW probably has a different definition of the hull-

They state in the rulebook on page 56 of the mini book:

...for measuring distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements).

This is where you are contesting dashofpepper is wrong by stating a deff rolla is not a part of the hull. It is implied that burna templates must measure from the hull and that anything resembling the items omitted from the hull cannot be used for measuring from.

Weapons such as a deff rolla may fall under a different category.

I would lean towards the defrolla not being considered part of the vehicle hull.

I play 3 battlewagons, and honestly they are not weedy builds like the official kit. Mine were built before it came out so I don't worry about how the new one looks but I digress.

In all 3 cases the deffrolla is a substantial part of the model. Several inches thick and trying to disembark off the front, accurately measure ranges to and from, etc and NOT count it as part of the hull DOES NOT WORK in regular gameplay. it is clunky to say the least

I have always played it that the rolla counts as part of the hull, and enforce that evenly. ranges to shoot the BW, disembark, firing from the vehicle, etc. it has never been an issue with any of my opponents.

NaZ

I voted the same way. When I played Orks I always measured everything from the front of the hull which included my Deffrolla. This is because my models would not be able to deploy to the front of my wagon if the deffrolla wasn't part of my model. Of course I clearly defined it as part of the hull before the game started so that my opponent knew that if he could range the rolla then he was in range of the wagon and vice versa.

No the deff rolla does not count as part of the hull. Even the examples given from the rulle book a few post up clearly indicate to be so. The dozer blade being one that really sticks out. When vets get out of a chimera with a dozer blade..were do you measure from? and a deff rolla VERY much ats like a dozer blade just with an added bonues.


Just ask google to define "hull" for you.

"the frame or body of ship"

Its pretty clear.

Plus...It just doesnt make any sense.

If a dozer blade does not count as part of the hull, I don't see how/why a deff rolla would be.

Just because there is no room to disembark, does not mean you can just decide the def rolla is part of the hull. Disembark on the side, or turn the battle wagon.

Sounds like something that should have been cleared up before the game began.

Look at the diagram on page 3 of the rulebook which shows how to measure distance to a unit.

The diagram clearly shows that the reinforced ram on a Trukk is ignored when measuring distance.

I don't know how someone could honestly claim that the Deff Rolla should be treated differently from the reinforced ram in this situation.


So in short, Deff Rolla does not equal 'hull'.

My deff rollas are custom jobs and also stick out a few inches from the hull. For movement and shooting I measure from the end of the rolla. Also for disembarking I disembark two inches from the end of the rolla. I do this for simplicity (plus I don't gain or lose any distance). But when I shoot I shoot from the hull because that just makes sense. Most people I play don't say anything about it.
But I have a question then, if I measure distance from the hull how do I resolve tank shock? Because if I measure distance from from the hull I possibly gain a 2 to 3 inch range?
Disembarking also would be tough because then I would be forced to disembark on top of the rolla, which is awkward (which some one mentioned).

When you tank shock you don't measure if you are in contact or not, so if any part including the hull, weapons, antennas and deffrollas come in contact with a model they are tank shocked.



Slightly OT just to satisfy my curiosity. I'm interested if the standard GW deffrolla stick out more than 2" in front of the hull of the standard GW Battlewagon.

Geemoney wrote:My deff rollas are custom jobs and also stick out a few inches from the hull. For movement and shooting I measure from the end of the rolla. Also for disembarking I disembark two inches from the end of the rolla. I do this for simplicity (plus I don't gain or lose any distance). But when I shoot I shoot from the hull because that just makes sense. Most people I play don't say anything about it.
But I have a question then, if I measure distance from the hull how do I resolve tank shock? Because if I measure distance from from the hull I possibly gain a 2 to 3 inch range?
Disembarking also would be tough because then I would be forced to disembark on top of the rolla, which is awkward (which some one mentioned).

Yes, by the rules you should not be gaining any additional disembarking range by disembarking from the Deff Rolla. You should technically be setting the models on top of the Deff Rolla, or if they won't sit up there, off to the side using the 'wobbly model syndrome' rules.

But you are correct in that if you're using the Deff Rolla to measure your normal movement (and you include it when deploying the vehicle) then you're not gaining anything from it, which most opponents should be able to recognize and let you do.


But FYI, when it comes to vehicle shooting, range is measured from the tip of the gun barrel.


And with Tank Shocking, again you should technically be measuring range to the vehicle's hull, which doesn't include the Deff Rolla. However if you play the entire game (including deployment) measuring your distances including the Deff Rolla then it should be fine to include it as part of the hull form a friendly stand-point.

Webbe wrote:When you tank shock you don't measure if you are in contact or not, so if any part including the hull, weapons, antennas and deffrollas come in contact with a model they are tank shocked.

This is incorrect. Per the Tank Shocking rules you measure your movement distance to the unit being Tank Shocked and only if it is within this range is the unit actually Tank Shocked. And as with all ranges measured to and from the vehicle this is done to the hull, which doesn't include the Deff Rolla.

yakface wrote:

But FYI, when it comes to vehicle shooting, range is measured from the tip of the gun barrel.

And with Tank Shocking, again you should technically be measuring range to the vehicle's hull, which doesn't include the Deff Rolla. However if you play the entire game (including deployment) measuring your distances including the Deff Rolla then it should be fine to include it as part of the hull form a friendly stand-point.

Okay when I said shooting, I meant shooting embarked units such as burnas, or lootas.....I should of been more clear.
And the other question I had was assuming you played the game measuring from the hull, how do you resolve tank shock? I can't place my BW in contact with the enemy vehicle as the deff rolla is now in the way (this problem is the biggest reason I just call the rolla the hull).

I see where you are coming from yakface, and by RAW I'd agree with you. It is just impractical when a deffrolla is 2-3" thick. to not count it as part of the hull creates a lot of difficulty, counting it streamlines the whole process. why would you argue raw in this case only to make the situation in game more complicated?

This is a case where RAW and RAP may well disagree. The rules are quite clear that a 'rolla is not part of the hull. However, that creates a problem.

For example, if driving up to but not tank shocking an enemy unit then the hull should be 1" away - that means the rolla is jammed well into the unit.

Or when disembarking, it makes disembarking to the front impossible.

Or when being assualted, it's impossible to assault the front hull of the wagon forcing attackers to move further (or it may make it impervious to assault if it's sandwiched between other units.

For playability I would suggest that rollas, dozers, etc should be part of the hull for all measuring purposes.

yakface wrote:

Webbe wrote:When you tank shock you don't measure if you are in contact or not, so if any part including the hull, weapons, antennas and deffrollas come in contact with a model they are tank shocked.

This is incorrect. Per the Tank Shocking rules you measure your movement distance to the unit being Tank Shocked and only if it is within this range is the unit actually Tank Shocked. And as with all ranges measured to and from the vehicle this is done to the hull, which doesn't include the Deff Rolla.

While I have big respect for your opinion and I'm sure I'm wrong where does it say you measure to the unit tank shocked?

You declare the distance and direction you want to travel. You then move that distance and if you before completing that distance come into contact (you never need to measure contact) with an enemy non vehicle unit you tank shock it following the rules for DoG and so forth.

Scott-S6 wrote:This is a case where RAW and RAP may well disagree. The rules are quite clear that a 'rolla is not part of the hull. However, that creates a problem.

For example, if driving up to but not tank shocking an enemy unit then the hull should be 1" away - that means the rolla is jammed well into the unit.

Or when disembarking, it makes disembarking to the front impossible.

Or when being assualted, it's impossible to assault the front hull of the wagon forcing attackers to move further (or it may make it impervious to assault if it's sandwiched between other units.

For playability I would suggest that rollas, dozers, etc should be part of the hull for all measuring purposes.

Well, if you were playing this way (the Deff Rolla not counting as the hull) then models would be able to move on top of the Deff Rolla in order to contact the vehicle, just like if you play the opened doors on a Drop Pod don't count as part of the hull.


I think ultimately it just depends on how the players want to handle it during the game and then making sure to stay consistent.


If you want to play with it as part of the hull, because it is generally easier to do so, then obviously you need to take it into account during deployment, all movement, etc. And you would definitely want to 'okay' this with your opponent because it *isn't* the RAW and you don't want them to think you're somehow 'cheating' when you fire flamer templates from the Deff Rolla, as the OP clearly felt.

And on the other side, if you're going to go with the idea that it *isn't* part of the hull, then you (again) need to discuss it with your opponent and make sure he understands that point and what it means. It also means you can deploy the vehicle with the Deff Rolla hanging out of the deployment zone, for example. And you'll both have to understand that models will be able to move on top of the Deff Rolla...and be ready to use the 'wobbly model syndrome' to compensate for this.


Ultimately communication and consistency are the keys...but going back to the OP's question: No the Deff Rolla isn't technically part of the vehicle's hull, but it is often easier to play with it as part of the hull and if you do that, then yes it would be fine to place flamer templates fired from embarked models touching the front of the Deff Rolla.

Unless you consider the Deffrolla as being part of the hull, the BW is unassaultable from the front.
So would a Vindicator with a Dozerblade.

While RAW is my go-to-guy, sometimes you just need to work it out.

I feel quite positive about the 'problem' that some people have mentioned regarding a Deffrolla blocking front disembarking. Maybe it's just the price you pay for having such a powerful weapon on the front of your battlewagon? Although certainly it should've been specified in the rules if that was the case.

I would certainly side with the Deffrolla not counting as part of the hull... to do otherwise would leave everything wide open for 'modelling for advantage'.

I always thought you measured range from the turret/barrel on a vehicle? So, I guess in that case if the burna was glued to the deffrolla, then yes?
If it was a model embarked in the BW firing, I would think that logic would dictate it is measured from the hull [where the model is presumably located].

Of course, the image of an Ork logjammin' on the deffrolla trying to backpedal whilst it moved & shooting from atop the 'rolla is not entirely out of line for typical Ork mentality?

Just my opinion, of course...

bob,

Firing vehicle mounted weapons you do measure from the barrel/turret. Burnas are embarked and per the rules, you measure from the hull on open topped vehicles for shooting their weapons.
In a closed top vehicle, you measure from the fire points.

Tantras wrote:I feel quite positive about the 'problem' that some people have mentioned regarding a Deffrolla blocking front disembarking. Maybe it's just the price you pay for having such a powerful weapon on the front of your battlewagon? Although certainly it should've been specified in the rules if that was the case.

I would certainly side with the Deffrolla not counting as part of the hull... to do otherwise would leave everything wide open for 'modelling for advantage'.

You do realize that following that logic you cannot assault a BW from the front, right?

As Yakface has pointed out, attacking models can stand on the rolla - it's quite a hassle though.

Where's Dash?

I love to hear his take on this.

As much as I think it is bad form to have fired a bunch of burnas from the Death Rolla, I'd want to hear his side of all this.

Couple of things. There was NO animosity during the game, and it wasn't an argument or anything like that. He is out of town at a relatives house, which is what allowed him to attend this tournament in Atlanta.


Like I said though, if the deff rolla is used to place the narrow end of your Burna template, or deploy 2 inches from, then the Grabbing Klaw can be used the same exact way. That makes things a bit more complicated than some of you are making it out to be. If one is legal, then so is the other.



Clay

One thing most people arent realizing is that the usual procedure for a BW with burna boyz is to have a full unit of 15 burnas in there. So when the template is placed thats actauuly 15 templates being placed at that spot. So any fluff idea has to stretch to fit all 15 boyz dancing out there on that rolla while laying down their flame templates.....

Since dozer blade is one of the items specifically mentioned as not being part of the hull then it is pretty clear that the rolla isnt part of the hull either, and yes that means that models wishing to occupy that space have a bit of a problem.

One could place the models on top of the rolla, except then we run into the problem that we cannot place a model on top of another model. Its not a limit of just not being able to place a model on top of a hull, its a limit of not being able to be placed on top of any model. So yes there is a problem with assaulting a vehicle from the front or disembarking from the front.

Its not just limited to deff rollas tho, because a substantial dozer blade would do the same thing.

It also then does raise questions as to whether or not wreckin balls or grabbin claws would also allow for this extension of range for the burnas. If it works for the rolla, then why doesnt it work for the others?



Sliggoth

I count mine as part of the hull for simplicity sake. Otherwise deploying from the front of it would be a major pain. As long as you use the Deffrolla for measuring movement and range (going both ways) there is no issue if you count it or not.

As for the grabbin klaw that is a strawman argument at best. It is not be the way for purposes of movement or shooting as the Deffrolla is due to size and location on the vehicle. The Grabbin Klaw will only make it more complicated if someone decides to.