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My Vote? It is definitely not the hull.

I'd love to see Dash in here though.

It depends really.
Normally Id say no way its not the hull. BUT if your using it to measure from, when measuring for movement and for disembarking AND allowing it to count as the front hull when being attacked, then I guess that would be fine. Its weird seeing flamer templates stick out of it like that, but if its been used with all the prementioned stuff, then it is basically just being the front of the BW.
Now if the player uses it for movement, not allowing you to count it as the front hull but still wants to put templates on the front, then no thats total cheating right there.

Too bad I'm too lazy to do the search, but I'm betting that those who scream that it isn't part of the hull are the same ones that said you couldn't use it on vehicles.

So if it isn't part of the vehicle when you move forward to tank shock or ram, do you measure from the end of the DeffRolla for distance travelled or do you totally ignore it and measure ramming and tankshocking distances to the hull?

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Too bad I'm too lazy to do the search, but I'm betting that those who scream that it isn't part of the hull are the same ones that said you couldn't use it on vehicles.

So if it isn't part of the vehicle when you move forward to tank shock or ram, do you measure from the end of the DeffRolla for distance travelled or do you totally ignore it and measure ramming and tankshocking distances to the hull?

Interesting, because I argued for it working on vehicles it for months and I don't think it's part of the hull. Nice generalization there.
Read the rules, it's almost exactly the same as most of the examples given for non-hull elements and isn't ever defined as part of the hull.

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply with your measuring claim... you always measure to and from the hull. Ramming specifies contact between the models for its effects, not a measurement to the target.

OK so where do you measure distance and impact for tank shock and ramming? Noticed you did gloss over that question.

In my opinion by allowing deployment, and firing from the front edge of a Deff rolla, you are opening up other things for abuse. That's pretty much my entire point.



Clay

Boss GreenNutz wrote:OK so where do you measure distance and impact for tank shock and ramming? Noticed you did gloss over that question.

I edited it in right away, actually.

What distances are you talking about? The total distance moved for the ram? Because that doesn't change depending on where you measure from, all parts of the tank moved the same distance.

If you're talking about measuring distances to the target to check if they're affected, then you're doing it wrong.

hes saying to check to see if you actually make it into contact, if the deff rolla isnt hull then you need to move an extra 2" to get the actual "hull" in contact.

It does matter. There is an oppontent tank in front of my BW. I claim I will move 13" and ram it.

The DR on my Forge World BW sticks out about 3". Currently building my GW one so not sure how far it will protrude. If an opponent's tank is 14" away from the hull of my BW then it is too far away to ram even with RPJ. However that same tank would only be 11" away from the edge of my DR thus putting it within the distance needed to ram.

And Clay it is only abuse by those that choose to abuse it. Like firing a Burna from a GK or putting an IC in with Snikrot.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:It does matter. There is an oppontent tank in front of my BW. I claim I will move 13" and ram it.

The DR on my Forge World BW sticks out about 3". Currently building my GW one so not sure how far it will protrude. If an opponent's tank is 14" away from the hull of my BW then it is too far away to ram even with RPJ. However that same tank would only be 11" away from the edge of my DR thus putting it within the distance needed to ram.

mon-keigh slayer wrote:hes saying to check to see if you actually make it into contact, if the deff rolla isnt hull then you need to move an extra 2" to get the actual "hull" in contact.

No, you don't. That is not what contact between models is. Contact is not a 0" measurement to the hull, it is actual physical contact between the models, of which the rolla is a part.
Read the tank shock and ramming rules, you actually move the tank along the path and tankshock/ram any units it physically comes into contact with.
What part of this is so difficult to understand?

So the DR is part of the vehicle but isn't part of the vehicle. Interesting concept.

Going to reiterate the quote from GW WH 40k rulebook:

...for measuring distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements).

I believe GW intended weapons and fluff items not to count in the belief that a "hull" would be a common sense definition with little need for clarification (i.e. the hull is NOT a gun barrel, a deff rolla, a grot oiler sticking off the side of a wagon, corpses of space marines strung like a curtain off the side of your tank, smoke plumes, fire made by painting glue, extra spikes you plasce on there for amusement...)

So basically anything sticking out of the main portion of the vehicle constitutes a nonhull item IMO, including weapons and deffrollas.

I would agree except that you get the extra D6 hits with the deffrolla so adding it to the vehicle makes it part of the hull. Otherwise as was stated earlier you can not DoG a Tankshock since your models can't make contact with the hull. The DR is in the way.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:I would agree except that you get the extra D6 hits with the deffrolla so adding it to the vehicle makes it part of the hull. Otherwise as was stated earlier you can not DoG a Tankshock since your models can't make contact with the hull. The DR is in the way.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:So the DR is part of the vehicle but isn't part of the vehicle. Interesting concept.

You are making no sense and blatantly ignoring the rules involved.

Something can be part of a model, and not be part of the hull. This entire discussion is about such objects.
Tank shocking and ramming make no mention of requiring contact with the hull, just the vehicle.

What is so confusing about this? Are there rules you are reading that contradict it somewhere? Or are you just being difficult/trolling?

Hull is pretty easy to tell. 'Contact' with the model is pretty easy to tell. I didn't even think we were talking about that anymore.

WarOne wrote:Going to reiterate the quote from GW WH 40k rulebook:

...for measuring distances involving a vehicle, measure to or from their hull (ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements).

I believe GW intended weapons and fluff items not to count in the belief that a "hull" would be a common sense definition with little need for clarification (i.e. the hull is NOT a gun barrel, a deff rolla, a grot oiler sticking off the side of a wagon, corpses of space marines strung like a curtain off the side of your tank, smoke plumes, fire made by painting glue, extra spikes you plasce on there for amusement...)

So basically anything sticking out of the main portion of the vehicle constitutes a nonhull item IMO, including weapons and deffrollas.

Key word in there: Common Sense. I really don't get why we are discussing this at this length. (3 pages...really?) That line that Warone pulled out of the rule book sums it up. Remaining consistent in your measuring and letting your opponent know before the game removes all possible issues. That or we all play with pefectly measured symmetrical wooden rectangles to avoid all possible conflicts.

As for the issue of disembarking troops out the front of a wagon with a death-rolla that cannot be removed and hasn't been used as a point of reference for measuring I would just do a balancing act and would "count as" being under the decorative death-rolla. Treat it just like if some of your models can't stand on the lip of that crater without sliding into the center, they are technically on the lip, but you know: gravity. Those orks are probably gonna be moving in the assult phase in about a minute anyway!

Consistent Common Sense.

Tank shocking and ramming make no mention of requiring contact with the hull, just the vehicle.

See with this you would be looking for an unfair advantage. Not counting the DR as part of the hull means you get to place it 3" closer during deployment. This can make all the difference between a turn 2 Ram or not.

Common Sense is as common as Hens Teeth.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:

Tank shocking and ramming make no mention of requiring contact with the hull, just the vehicle.

See with this you would be looking for an unfair advantage. Not counting the DR as part of the hull means you get to place it 3" closer during deployment. This can make all the difference between a turn 2 Ram or not.

What are you talking about? How is following the rules unfair?
People with dozer blades and so on can, and do, do the exact same thing. It is entirely legal.

kowbasher wrote:
As for the issue of disembarking troops out the front of a wagon with a death-rolla that cannot be removed and hasn't been used as a point of reference for measuring I would just do a balancing act and would "count as" being under the decorative death-rolla. Treat it just like if some of your models can't stand on the lip of that crater without sliding into the center, they are technically on the lip, but you know: gravity. Those orks are probably gonna be moving in the assult phase in about a minute anyway!

Consistent Common Sense.

Except they can't 'count as' being on top of or under the rolla, because the model is impassable terrain.

So to avoid abusing one set of rules we're going to abuse a different one. How often do you think it's gonna be ok when you line up against someone and place the deffrolla over 12" from the table edge?

People will generally be far more pissed about this than flamer's from the front of the tank. You can look at them and say, sorry, it doesn't count as part of the vehicle and watch how much fun your game is gonna be when it starts out that way.

Hulksmash wrote:So to avoid abusing one set of rules we're going to abuse a different one. How often do you think it's gonna be ok when you line up against someone and place the deffrolla over 12" from the table edge?

People will generally be far more pissed about this than flamer's from the front of the tank. You can look at them and say, sorry, it doesn't count as part of the vehicle and watch how much fun your game is gonna be when it starts out that way.

Again, how is following the rules somehow abusing them? I think it's going to be okay 100% of the time, if you'd really like to know.

The situation goes:
"Mind if I play with my deffrollas as part of the hull?"
"No, I'd rather you didn't and used them as a decorative element as implied in the rulebook."
"Okay". *place tank so entirety of hull is within deployment zone*

or

"Mind if I play with my deffrollas as part of the hull?"
"Sure, I don't mind."
"Okay". *place tank so entirety of hull is within deployment zone*

What am I 'abusing' exactly?

I thought ram was measured from hull of the vehicle, and as such it wouldnt matter where the rolla is.

Except they can't 'count as' being on top of or under the rolla, because the model is impassable terrain.

Mind pointing me out a page in the BRB that says a DR is impassible terrain? I couldn't find it and would like to since that would mean a dangerous terrain test as well when a unit gets out of the way since they are now in impassible terrain.

In essence you are saying you can not do anything from/to the front of a BW with a DR except TS and Ram since you can't deploy off the front, fire a template from the front or an enemy unit can't even DoG since they can't make contact with the hull (remember you said the DR is impassible terrain and you can't move through impassible terrain).

Boss GreenNutz wrote:

Except they can't 'count as' being on top of or under the rolla, because the model is impassable terrain.

Mind pointing me out a page in the BRB that says a DR is impassible terrain? I couldn't find it

You couldn't find page 13, the 'Guidelines on categorizing terrain' under the 'Terrain' heading, where the things that count as impassable terrain (such as other models) are described? Where did you look, exactly?

Mind showing me where DoG requries contact to the hull, if we're trading jabs about the rules?
Or how a unit that allows a tank to pass through it 'as if it were not there', or is moved if the tank would end up where it is, is somehow inside the vehicle and suddenly in 'dangerous' terrain?

So part of my own open topped vehicle is now impassible terrain to a unit of my models that is getting out of it.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Mind showing me a page reference where a model can disembark anywhere from an OT vehicle unless it has a DR on it?

Boss GreenNutz wrote:So part of my own open topped vehicle is now impassible terrain to a unit of my models that is getting out of it.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Mind showing me a page reference where a model can disembark anywhere from an OT vehicle unless it has a DR on it?

How about:
The part where it says you have to be 2" of the hull.
The part where it says extra bits are not hull.
The part where it says models are impassible terrain.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:So part of my own open topped vehicle is now impassible terrain to a unit of my models that is getting out of it.

Maybe I wasn't clear. Mind showing me a page reference where a model can disembark anywhere from an OT vehicle unless it has a DR on it?

I just showed you one, read it. Perhaps page 14's 'models may not be placed in impassable terrain', or a perusal of the disembarking rules on page 67 would help.

Protip: Your entire open topped vehicle is always impassable terrain to a unit of models that is getting out of it. You can't disembark on top of your rolla just like you can't disembark on top of the rest of the battlewagon model. Maybe if you understood the rules better, or read the pages provided, you'd know that already.

OK I"ll type slowly so you can understand. If as you claim the DR is impassible terrain, how can you disembark a unit from the front of a BW? Perhpas you failed to read the section on OT vehicles and disembarking. I also relooked the entry for the Deffrolla. Oddly enough I didn't find anything there that stated a unit may not disembark from the front of a DR equipped BW.

Boss GreenNutz wrote:OK I"ll type slowly so you can understand. If as you claim the DR is impassible terrain, how can you disembark a unit from the front of a BW? Perhpas you failed to read the section on OT vehicles and disembarking. I also relooked the entry for the Deffrolla. Oddly enough I didn't find anything there that stated a unit may not disembark from the front of a DR equipped BW.

You disembark them from the front exactly like you do for any other transport using the open topped disembarking rules. The ones me and Gwar both referenced for you to read which you then failed to do.

Lets go through the rule...
You can disembark within 2" of any point on the vehicle. Okay?

That 2", like all distance measurements involving a vehicle per p56, is to the hull. With me so far?

If the deffrolla sticks out 2", then you cannot disembark models in that part of the battlewagons front arc because there is nowhere to put them that is not impassable deff rolla vehicle model. All set?


What, exactly, is confusing you? Quote the rules rather than just blathering about how you looked at them.

Still waiting for Dash to speak up, since he's online now...